Dalton since Lazor took over as OC

[Bengalsrob]

I'm usually one of those who would agree Fred is up to something (because he usually is), but I'm just not seeing it here. Maybe had Fred titled the thread "Bengals show marked improvement since OC change" it would have made everyone happy. As far as Dalton goes, I'm pretty satisfied for the most part, hell I wanted Kaepernick when we drafted Andy!

[YsCascadia]

(09-15-2018, 03:04 PM)Sweetness Wrote: The amount of dumb from one person just went over level 9000.

Congrats to anyone who gets that reference.

Wow Fred your fanboys on this board really come running when someone calls you out on cherry picking your stats.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-15-2018, 02:36 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  It shows your inability to understand what is written.

Since we are going back into last season we aren't 2-0 we are actually 4-0.  I mean why not go back to last year right?  Who cares about things like through the whole course of a season.  No let's start in week 2 of last year and go through to week 2 of this year.  See how silly that is?

The stats that count on whether or not Dalton is any good are the career stats that I posted.  Now since the NFL is a win NOW and not last year,  Then the only real stats for this year that matter are these last 2 games.  Or are you just not capable of understanding how a person's career stats in relation to the current season stats are to be viewed?

As to how a coach having a difference on the way a QB plays is why I say Brady is a system QB.  If he wants the GOAT title he needs to leave NE and play for the Chargers or some other team. 

As to the relevance of Lazor taking over?  It isn't relevant.  A OC influences the whole team... you want to talk about Lazor then post the offenses totals for the time he took over, Rushing TDs, Turnovers, 1st downs, 3rd down Conv. 4th down Conv.  4th quarter comebacks.  % of having the lead in the 4th and then losing the game.  Then you can go back to the 2nd game of last year. 

Using Dalton just shows that the cherry picking is only to hype Dalton up.  If you don't understand that then maybe you should try to focus more learning about football then trying to be witty on the message board.

Fred cherry picked, or as BFine put it, selectively picked, I called him out on it.  Said I didn't want to argue.  Leave it at that.  STFU with trying to sound smart, because you don't have the ability for it.

You shouldn't question comprehension, when you display a lack of it. I'm not coming at you, just saying...it's perfectly reasonable to take a consecutive 16 game stretch when there are stats to show a hypothesis correct. Lazor was the OC for the last 14 games of last year and the first 2 of this year. Since there are 16 games in a season, it's perfectly reasonable to show how, in this case, a QBs performance has been better under the new OC. 

The QB play the first 2 games, along with the entire offense, was BAD last year. If you want to get nit-picky, it might have made more sense to take Zamp's last 16 games and compare them to Lazor's first 16 games, but it wasn't really necessary to make the point. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-15-2018, 04:04 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote: I'm usually one of those who would agree Fred is up to something (because he usually is), but I'm just not seeing it here. Maybe had Fred titled the thread "Bengals show marked improvement since OC change" it would have made everyone happy. As far as Dalton goes, I'm pretty satisfied for the most part, hell I wanted Kaepernick when we drafted Andy!

Nah, Fred's just multifaceted. He'll throw BS out there just to throw BS. He'll argue just to argue, and then he'll make a thoughtful, insightful post. 

It's up to the reader to decipher where he's coming from at any particular moment.

[YsCascadia]

(09-15-2018, 05:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You shouldn't question comprehension, when you display a lack of it. I'm not coming at you, just saying...it's perfectly reasonable to take a consecutive 16 game stretch when there are stats to show a hypothesis correct. Lazor was the OC for the last 14 games of last year and the first 2 of this year. Since there are 16 games in a season, it's perfectly reasonable to show how, in this case, a QBs performance has been better under the new OC. 

The QB play the first 2 games, along with the entire offense, was BAD last year. If you want to get nit-picky, it might have made more sense to take Zamp's last 16 games and compare them to Lazor's first 16 games, but it wasn't really necessary to make the point. 

Seriously, if Fred just wanted to highlight Lazor's accomplishments all he had to do was say "Offense under Lazor"... he didn't do that he specifically said Dalton.  Then he post the win/loss record of 9/7, to give the impression that had Lazor started as OC last year we would have had a 9-7 record.

I can't believe the amount of fanboys that Fred has.  He cherry picked and I called him on it.  To get butt hurt over someone pointing out that Fred is doing this dishonest attempt at making it look like Dalton turned a corner is ridiculous.

At least some have understood what I was saying and agree with me that what Fred was doing was cherry picking.  Hell Bfine even said it was selective picking.  It seems like the rest just want to complain about me calling Fred out.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-15-2018, 05:24 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Seriously, if Fred just wanted to highlight Lazor's accomplishments all he had to do was say "Offense under Lazor"... he didn't do that he specifically said Dalton.  Then he post the win/loss record of 9/7, to give the impression that had Lazor started as OC last year we would have had a 9-7 record.

I can't believe the amount of fanboys that Fred has.  He cherry picked and I called him on it.  To get butt hurt over someone pointing out that Fred is doing this dishonest attempt at making it look like Dalton turned a corner is ridiculous.

At least some have understood what I was saying and agree with me that what Fred was doing was cherry picking.  Hell Bfine even said it was selective picking.  It seems like the rest just want to complain about me calling Fred out.

True. He could have. But what's the harm in saying Dalton? Doesn't the offense mirror how the QB is playing the overwhelming majority of the time?

I just don't agree with the cherry picking comment because that's usually used to make the QB, or any player, look better or worse and it usually involves leaving something good or something bad out to make the case.

[fredtoast]

The Force is strong in this one.

[jfkbengals]

(09-15-2018, 04:04 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote: I'm usually one of those who would agree Fred is up to something (because he usually is), but I'm just not seeing it here. Maybe had Fred titled the thread "Bengals show marked improvement since OC change" it would have made everyone happy. As far as Dalton goes, I'm pretty satisfied for the most part, hell I wanted Kaepernick when we drafted Andy!

I was torn on that one.

I wanted Kaep for his bigger upside, but knew Dalton was a guy who had the experience to take the field right away.

[TKUHL]

(09-14-2018, 04:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Those who want to put it to bed, put it to bed a long time ago. Those who did not, not likely as some people just can't focus on the future and erase the negatives of the past. Dalton proved to me in 2015 he was a top 8 to 12 QB. I believe he still is better than:

Cousins
 A. Smith
Stafford - yes him
Newton
Tannehill
Garopolo (name)
Winston
Luck
Any rookie or 2nd year starter (Watson is one to watch, but right now it is AD)
Bradford
Foles
Prescott
Flacco
Tyrod Taylor
Carr
Eli

Behind:
Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Ben (but AD is catching him as Ben digresses), Wilson, Rivers, Ryan

Of course my humble opinion

Meh think I would take a healthy Luck over Dalton and even a healthy Wentz. If this season turns out to be another playoff miss then I would be more than happy to start over with either of those QB's.

[muskiesfan]

(09-15-2018, 05:24 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: Seriously, if Fred just wanted to highlight Lazor's accomplishments all he had to do was say "Offense under Lazor"... he didn't do that he specifically said Dalton.  Then he post the win/loss record of 9/7, to give the impression that had Lazor started as OC last year we would have had a 9-7 record.

I can't believe the amount of fanboys that Fred has.  He cherry picked and I called him on it.  To get butt hurt over someone pointing out that Fred is doing this dishonest attempt at making it look like Dalton turned a corner is ridiculous.

At least some have understood what I was saying and agree with me that what Fred was doing was cherry picking.  Hell Bfine even said it was selective picking.  It seems like the rest just want to complain about me calling Fred out.

Is it cherry picking to attack Dalton for his performance in prime time games? The team doesn't play 16 of those a season, so using only those games as a barometer would be cherry picking, right?

How about playoff performance? The team doesn't always play in the postseason so it wouldn't be fair to use those games as a way to judge a player either right?

To me, if I want to get an idea of how a player performs in prime time games, I would look at the prime time games he has played in his career. Same thing with playoffs. Or, if I wanted to see how a player performed under one coordinator compared to another, I would look at his stats under those coordinators.

[Luvnit2]

(09-15-2018, 11:37 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Meh think I would take a healthy Luck over Dalton and even a healthy Wentz. If this season turns out to be another playoff miss then I would be more than happy to start over with either of those QB's.

Wentz has small sample, too small for me. Add in already 1 year career ending injury already so why I did not put him ahead of Dalton. A healthy Luck has not been the norm either, but for fun go look up their stats, if you line them up they are very close, but AD has higher QBR by couple of percent. AD completes at higher rate. AD has more rushing TD's and because of injury Luck is very high risk to run and a year ending injury away when he takes on guys like S. Williams and M. Johnson on scrambles.

Having said all of that, yeah Luck is the golden boy number 1 pick who has been a good QB, but his stats are disappointing for a former #1 overall draft pick.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(09-15-2018, 01:03 AM)Beaker Wrote: So is this demand. You have to win regular season games to get to the playoffs.

That is a given, but whether we go 6-9 and miss the playoffs or 9-6 and lose the first playoff game, it is the same thing to me.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-14-2018, 06:29 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: No... I don't need to look up Cherry picking...  as I said, I am not interested in arguing.  You can continue cherry picking to your hearts content.

Cherry picking seems to be what you are doing , not Fred

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(09-15-2018, 02:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Cool stats there Fred. Thought he was playing well and he looks really accurate out there and is not panicking.

He used to panic and that was always my greatest criticism of Dalton. But he looks comfortable. Lazor has done
wonders and i think the Van Pelt grab was one that is really flying under the radar along with the new WR coach.

He is also very streaky, so having a few good games in a row is nothing new to him.

For the record, I do not hate Dalton, I think he was an excellent draft pick for the second round. My issue is I believe he has a ceiling and that ceiling is not enough to win a SB. I do not doubt he has made the most of his abilities and should be commended for that. But if I wanted to win a SB, I would draft a QB high and let them compete. You may set the team back if you choose incorrectly but at least you tried. This team likes the steady approach, not taking chances, comfort over going for it.

It will be interesting when his contract is up because in today's market he is a $20M per year QB if not more so will this team pay him that much? I think they draft a replacement then and get 5 cheap salary years out of that guy.

[Luvnit2]

(09-16-2018, 01:38 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: He is also very streaky, so having a few good games in a row is nothing new to him.

For the record, I do not hate Dalton, I think he was an excellent draft pick for the second round. My issue is I believe he has a ceiling and that ceiling is not enough to win a SB. I do not doubt he has made the most of his abilities and should be commended for that. But if I wanted to win a SB, I would draft a QB high and let them compete. You may set the team back if you choose incorrectly but at least you tried. This team likes the steady approach, not taking chances, comfort over going for it.

It will be interesting when his contract is up because in today's market he is a $20M per year QB if not more so will this team pay him that much? I think they draft a replacement then and get 5 cheap salary years out of that guy.

Foles just won a Super Bowl, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and a lot of good and not great QBs won super bowls because there are 3 units out there, offense, defense and special teams competing. Rivers is a great QB who plays for bad teams so no Super Bowl. Great teams have all 3 pieces to the puzzle.

[jfkbengals]

(09-16-2018, 01:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Foles just won a Super Bowl, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and a lot of good and not great QBs won super bowls because there are 3 units out there, offense, defense and special teams competing. Rivers is a great QB who plays for bad teams so no Super Bowl. Great teams have all 3 pieces to the puzzle.

GTFO with logic!

[fredtoast]

(09-16-2018, 01:38 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: He is also very streaky, so having a few good games in a row is nothing new to him.

For the record, I do not hate Dalton, I think he was an excellent draft pick for the second round. My issue is I believe he has a ceiling and that ceiling is not enough to win a SB. I do not doubt he has made the most of his abilities and should be commended for that. But if I wanted to win a SB, I would draft a QB high and let them compete. You may set the team back if you choose incorrectly but at least you tried. This team likes the steady approach, not taking chances, comfort over going for it.

It will be interesting when his contract is up because in today's market he is a $20M per year QB if not more so will this team pay him that much? I think they draft a replacement then and get 5 cheap salary years out of that guy.

Dalton's problem is not his "ceiling".  When he is on he is as better than most QBs in the league.  There are only 4 active QBs with more games with a 125+ rating than Dalton since he entered the league (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan) and only 6 have had a season with a higher rating than Dalton had in 2015. (Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Wilson, Brady, Foles).

Dalton's problem is consistency.  A player that can post so many elite performances should nmot lay so many eggs.  Since Dalton entered the league only 5 QBs have more games with a passer rating below 60.

Why he craps the bed in playoffs is a mystery.  He wins big games in the regukar season.  He has beaten Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, and Peyton Manning head-to-head when those QBs had division Championship teams.  It just seems like the entire Bengal team falls flat in the playoffs.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-14-2018, 04:21 PM)McC Wrote: He might have put the primetime narrative to bed last night too.

That will stick to him forever, unfortunately.

Since the 2.0 game, Dalton has played 12 prime-time games. 3/4 of season's worth. His stats?

267/423 (63.1%)
2911 yards (243 per game)
19 TDs to 7 INTs
91.4 rating

(09-14-2018, 05:11 PM)BengalChris Wrote: No one could defend last year's start. No one can really defend Dalton's playoff stats either, they are just plain bad (1TD, 6INTs, 4FUMs, 0 wins, 4 losses).

But, it is a team game and it's not just Dalton. Last night Boyd prevented an interception on a bad throw, which helped out Dalton's stat line. The D has put the closing marks on both of these first two games this year.

To Dalton's credit he has turned his play around from last year's start. Maybe he'll do the same come playoff time this year.

Most of us, self included, wanted Marv gone after last year. But it turned out better that we kept him.

...and you can just as easily point out that our WRs have caused some INT's. It all balances out in the end.

(09-14-2018, 06:29 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: No... I don't need to look up Cherry picking...  as I said, I am not interested in arguing.  You can continue cherry picking to your hearts content.

(09-14-2018, 07:07 PM)motoarch Wrote: He could have tossed 8tds lastnight and 50 in the last 16 games and it wouldn’t matter.  Those that don’t like him never will.  The dalton scale fair or not will be his story throughout his career.

(09-14-2018, 10:15 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Never gave up on the kid or even said anything silly like he should be replaced by McAJ.

Anybody that judges any QB when their OL is as bad as ours was last year, is just not being fair at all.

OL stunk, run game stunk and somehow the QB is supposed to be good. Just craziness.  

A lot of people on here said he'd rebound as soon as the line was decent. Not great, but decent. Welp...

(09-15-2018, 01:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Fred's post is not cherry picking; it is selective.

Given his parameters that would put Andy just out of the top 10 in passer rating from last year. Seems about right as he has only been inside the top 10 once.

Here's to hoping this year makes it twice,

So that puts him just outside the top 10 among QB's, just as many have claimed. If he were around 20th, as others have claimed, shouldn't he be around 20th? 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(09-16-2018, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton's problem is not his "ceiling".  When he is on he is as better than most QBs in the league.  There are only 4 active QBs with more games with a 125+ rating than Dalton since he entered the league (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan) and only 6 have had a season with a higher rating than Dalton had in 2015. (Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Wilson, Brady, Foles).

Dalton's problem is consistency.  A player that can post so many elite performances should nmot lay so many eggs.  Since Dalton entered the league only 5 QBs have more games with a passer rating below 60.

Why he craps the bed in playoffs is a mystery.  He wins big games in the regukar season.  He has beaten Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, and Peyton Manning head-to-head when those QBs had division Championship teams.  It just seems like the entire Bengal team falls flat in the playoffs.

This last sentence falls on the head coach. The whole team is bad during the playoffs, not just Dalton and that's coaching.

But...

I believe that this year is different simply because of the end of the first half against Baltimore. The aggressive play calling being up by three TD's wouldn't have happened in past seasons. The Bengals came into Thursday Nights Game looking to destroy the Ravens. It is good to see and needs to continue.

EDIT: the "It's Over 9000" reference is from Dragon Ball Z but I know it from World of Warcraft achievement.

[*bfine32*]

(09-16-2018, 04:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So that puts him just outside the top 10 among QB's, just as many have claimed. If he were around 20th, as others have claimed, shouldn't he be around 20th? 

Sure.