Rookie Award

[*ochocincos*]

(11-02-2018, 01:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Meanwhile, we're paying Preston Brown 10M to average 5.5 tackles per game..

I remember being excited for all of the past few FAs the Bengals brought in for LB. Dansby, Minter, and Brown. They were all much more solid before coming to Cincinnati. I don't know if it's the scheme, coaching, or what but none of these have been working out well.

[Devils Advocate]

(11-02-2018, 10:03 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree and who would have thought we could add 2 solid players to defense yet still be struggling ?  

I’ve been as disappointed with the defense as anyone, but I heard a solid point on the radio the other day; we have to re examine what a good defense is because in today’s NFL, offenses are gonna put up yards. So the ‘bend but don’t break’ ie try to hold teams to FG’s, isn’t a bad thing. Unfortunately, we haven’t been too successful with that, but giving up yards is just gonna happen. In that sense, we may not be as bad as it seems going forward ... although I agree, it’s pretty bad.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-02-2018, 02:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I remember being excited for all of the past few FAs the Bengals brought in for LB. Dansby, Minter, and Brown. They were all much more solid before coming to Cincinnati. I don't know if it's the scheme, coaching, or what but none of these have been working out well.

I remember yawning when we signed each of these free agents

[fredtoast]

(11-02-2018, 01:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Meanwhile, we're paying Preston Brown 10M to average 5.5 tackles per game..

It is only 5 million.

But this is exactly what I try to tell people every year during free agency.  It is not as simple as just "spending money".  Even the best teams have had high dollar free agents flop.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-02-2018, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is only 5 million.

But this is exactly what I try to tell people every year during free agency.  It is not as simple as just "spending money".  Even the best teams have had high dollar free agents flop.

Thanks, that's much better.  So at 33 combined tackles in half a season, that comes to $75,757.58 per tackle.

I'm in the wrong gig, I should have tried harder at football.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-02-2018, 02:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thanks, that's much better.  So at 33 combined tackles in half a season, that comes to $75,757.58 per tackle.

I'm in the wrong gig, I should have tried harder at football.  

Wasn't Preston hurt a game or two?

He also has a couple big picks for us. He hasn't been a terrible FA signing IMO.

Just needs to get better like all our LB's do in both tackling and in coverage.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-02-2018, 02:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wasn't Preston hurt a game or two?

He also has a couple big picks for us. He hasn't been a terrible FA signing IMO.

Just needs to get better like all our LB's do in both tackling and in coverage.

Yes, he's played 6 games. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-02-2018, 02:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I remember being excited for all of the past few FAs the Bengals brought in for LB. Dansby, Minter, and Brown. They were all much more solid before coming to Cincinnati. I don't know if it's the scheme, coaching, or what but none of these have been working out well.

Nothing wrong with Preston, he's been playing well.

People also have to remember that MLBs in a Tampa Scheme (Unless your name is Hardy Nickerson), almost ALWAYS have less tackles than the WLB; it is a tried and true trend, more often than not.

Brooks had more tackles than:

- Hardy Nickerson (He beat hardy 3-2 and Nickerson missed 6 games one year, plus Hardy had more tackles than Barney Bussey, who was the WLB the 2 years he was with Tampa before Brooks was drafted). Both had over 100 tackles in the same season, when both were healthy, just brutally tough.
- Jamie Duncan (beat him 2 years)
- Shelton Quarles (beat him 4-1, Quarles also had at or near 100 tackles, each year)

Barrett Rudd beat him both years they were together, however one can argue that Brooks was old and had fallen off (which he did).

Once Lavonte David came in, the same thing happened with him and Mason Foster.

The same can be seen with Thomas Howard/Burfict and Rey, where the WLB gets more tackles.

Anyways, TL;dr, Scheme is why he doesn't get a ****ton of tackles, but he's playing fine.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-02-2018, 02:51 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Nothing wrong with Preston, he's been playing well.

People also have to remember that MLBs in a Tampa Scheme (Unless your name is Hardy Nickerson), almost ALWAYS have less tackles than the WLB; it is a tried and true trend, more often than not.

Brooks had more tackles than:

- Hardy Nickerson (He beat hardy 3-2 and Nickerson missed 6 games one year, plus Hardy had more tackles than Barney Bussey, who was the WLB the 2 years he was with Tampa before Brooks was drafted). Both had over 100 tackles in the same season, when both were healthy, just brutally tough.
- Jamie Duncan (beat him 2 years)
- Shelton Quarles (beat him 4-1, Quarles also had at or near 100 tackles, each year)

Barrett Rudd beat him both years they were together, however one can argue that Brooks was old and had fallen off (which he did).

Once Lavonte David came in, the same thing happened with him and Mason Foster.

The same can be seen with Thomas Howard/Burfict and Rey, where the WLB gets more tackles.

Anyways, TL;dr, Scheme is why he doesn't get a ****ton of tackles, but he's playing fine.

Good stuff Truck. Also happy to hear Evans is coming around and playing better.

With Vigil coming back and these guys improving the entire Defense should improve big time.

Sure is nice having rookies like Bates and Hubbard playing great so early in their careers, that is all i know.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-02-2018, 02:51 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Nothing wrong with Preston, he's been playing well.

People also have to remember that MLBs in a Tampa Scheme (Unless your name is Hardy Nickerson), almost ALWAYS have less tackles than the WLB; it is a tried and true trend, more often than not.

Brooks had more tackles than:

- Hardy Nickerson (He beat hardy 3-2 and Nickerson missed 6 games one year, plus Hardy had more tackles than Barney Bussey, who was the WLB the 2 years he was with Tampa before Brooks was drafted). Both had over 100 tackles in the same season, when both were healthy, just brutally tough.
- Jamie Duncan (beat him 2 years)
- Shelton Quarles (beat him 4-1, Quarles also had at or near 100 tackles, each year)

Barrett Rudd beat him both years they were together, however one can argue that Brooks was old and had fallen off (which he did).

Once Lavonte David came in, the same thing happened with him and Mason Foster.

The same can be seen with Thomas Howard/Burfict and Rey, where the WLB gets more tackles.

Anyways, TL;dr, Scheme is why he doesn't get a ****ton of tackles, but he's playing fine.

I wasn't meaning to say I expected them to come in and lead the team in tackles but I was expecting them to be better than they were. Brown's been the best out of the three that I remember.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-02-2018, 03:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I wasn't meaning to say I expected them to come in and lead the team in tackles but I was expecting them to be better than they were. Brown's been the best out of the three that I remember.

Oddly enough, Minter had signed with the Bucs the week of their game in Cincy, and then was released on Tuesday.  He recorded on tackle on STs.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-02-2018, 01:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wanted to draft Bates and when we did i thought he would be a great player for us down the road once he got better
at tackling but damn, dude has been great right out of the gate even at tackling. He has saved our asses a couple times.

Seems to be a born leader and a great man off the field as well.

Congrats to Jessie Bates III. Awesome player, i think he will be better than Reggie for us.

It's really looking that way thus far.  Great draft getting him and Hubbard.  If they continue their trajectory, look out!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-02-2018, 02:51 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Nothing wrong with Preston, he's been playing well.

People also have to remember that MLBs in a Tampa Scheme (Unless your name is Hardy Nickerson), almost ALWAYS have less tackles than the WLB; it is a tried and true trend, more often than not.

Brooks had more tackles than:

- Hardy Nickerson (He beat hardy 3-2 and Nickerson missed 6 games one year, plus Hardy had more tackles than Barney Bussey, who was the WLB the 2 years he was with Tampa before Brooks was drafted). Both had over 100 tackles in the same season, when both were healthy, just brutally tough.
- Jamie Duncan (beat him 2 years)
- Shelton Quarles (beat him 4-1, Quarles also had at or near 100 tackles, each year)

Barrett Rudd beat him both years they were together, however one can argue that Brooks was old and had fallen off (which he did).

Once Lavonte David came in, the same thing happened with him and Mason Foster.

The same can be seen with Thomas Howard/Burfict and Rey, where the WLB gets more tackles.

Anyways, TL;dr, Scheme is why he doesn't get a ****ton of tackles, but he's playing fine.

I agree truck.  It's also worth noting that he has been playing while nursing an ankle as well.  Preston has played better than folks realize, and done what is asked of him.  He has 2 INTs and I'm hoping the bye gives him time to heal up fully.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-02-2018, 03:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I wasn't meaning to say I expected them to come in and lead the team in tackles but I was expecting them to be better than they were. Brown's been the best out of the three that I remember.

My apologies; wasn't insinuating that!

And I agree; he's been the best by far, though Dansby was good for us in run support... just god awful in coverage, which was supposed to be his forte.

Add that to a shitty attitude and he was indeed forgettable.

[McC]

(11-02-2018, 01:42 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Browns not a bad LB...but he's more suited for the NFL like 10 years ago. I think Burfict is too in some ways.

We need to go with Big LB's who can rush the passer Outside and then inside athletic guys who can run and cover TE's and drop into Zone and occasionally deflect passes.

We've drafted A LOT of LB's over the years in Rounds 3, 4, 5, etc. I think it would be interesting to analyze them.

Actually, with all due respect, I think it would be depressing to analyze them,  It could be titled--"Oh, the many ways we've missed."

And I agree with the rest of what you said.

[fredtoast]

(11-02-2018, 05:12 PM)McC Wrote: Actually, with all due respect, I think it would be depressing to analyze them,  It could be titled--"Oh, the many ways we've missed."

First of all I count Willis and Lawson as a DEs. 

Jordan Evans is just in his second season so it is still too early to grade him, but he is looking pretty good for a sixth round pick.  He has only played a little over half of the defensive snaps (51.9%) but he is on pace for 70 tackles, 3 sacks, and 2 ints.  The most encouraging thing about Evans is that he has looked really good the last two games where he has recorded 17 of his 35 total tackles for the season.

First Round
David Pollack '05....Looked like a solid starter but not a first round star.
Keith Rivers '08.....Started but was just "meh".  Not bad for a middle round pick but as a top 10 selection...WHIFF

Second Round
Odell Thurman '05....Looked like potential star, but had more red flags than almost any player in draft history....WHIFF
Ray Maualuga '09.....Not as bad as many  people here claim, but did not live up to being the #38 pick in the draft.

Third Round
Caleb Miller '04..........WHIFF
Landon Johnson '04....Started early in his career due to guys in front of him getting hurt.  Eventually developed into a decent starter.
Ahmad Brooks '06......WHIFF
Dontay Moch '11........WHIFF
Paul Dawson '15.........WHIFF

Fourth Round
Roddrick Muckelroy '10....WHIFF 
Sean Porter '13...............WHIFF

Others
Khalid Abdullah (5th) '03.....WHIFF
A.J. Nicholson (5th) '06.......WHIFF
Angelo Craig (7th) '08.........WHIFF
Marquise Flowers (6th) '14...WHIFF

When he first got here he took small fast linebackers (Abdullah, Johnson, Miller).  Landon Johnson claimed that by the end of his rookies season when he was starting at MLB he weighed less than 220.  Later in his career he added weight and played some decent LB for us.  But other than Johnson the only ones who started more than one season were Maualuga and Rivers .  

[McC]

(11-02-2018, 05:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First Round

David Pollack '05....Looked like a solid starter but not a first round star.
Keith Rivers '08.....WHIFF

Second Round
Odell Thurman '05....Looked like potential star, but had more red flags than almost any player in draft history....WHIFF
Ray Maualuga '09.....Not as bad as many people here claim, but did not live up to being the #38 pick in the draft.

Third Round
Caleb Miller '04..........WHIFF
Landon Johnson '04....Started early in his career due to guys in front of him getting hurt.  Eventually developed into a decent starter.
Ahmad Brooks '06......WHIFF
Dontay Moch '11........WHIFF
Paul Dawson '15.........WHIFF

Fourth Round
Roddrick Muckelroy '10....WHIFF 
Sean Porter '13...............WHIFF

Others
Khalid Abdullah (5th) '03.....WHIFF
A.J. Nicholson (5th) '06.......WHIFF
Angelo Craig (7th) '08.........WHIFF
Marquise Flowers (6th) '14...WHIFF

When he first got here he took small fast linebackers (Abdullah, Johnson, Miller).  Landon Johnson claimed that by the end of his rookies season when he was starting at MLB he weighed less than 220.  Later in his career he added weight and played some decent LB for us.  But other than Johnson the only ones who started more than one season were Maualuga and Rivers were .  

From a guy who played the position and came up as a LB Coach.  How is this possible?

[Circleville Guy]

(11-02-2018, 09:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Bates and Hubbard have been huge parts of this team's success.  

There are nice pieces on D for the future, I like Glasgow too. They really need to get some better talent at LB in the draft.

[Circleville Guy]

(11-02-2018, 01:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bates looks like a good one. You knew from his scouting report that he'd be good in coverage, but his tackling in the run game has been solid. That was the one area coming out of college that you could question.

Fej grades really high at PFF too. I kid you not, he was grading out as an Elite Safety up until recently when he had too few snaps to qualify.

Really Quickly:

Williams 63.3 - Above Average #57 S
Bates 83.8 - High Quality #4 Safety
Fej 91.0 - Elite - But not enough snaps to qualify anymore. He was something like the #2, 3 safety when I looked several weeks back.

So between Bates and Fej...we could have 2 Top 5 Safeties out there.

I had no idea that Fej rated that high, the D can’t be that far off from being good. Someone posted that they blitz less than any other team, not sure if that snowballs some or not.

[Circleville Guy]

(11-02-2018, 01:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wanted to draft Bates and when we did i thought he would be a great player for us down the road once he got better
at tackling but damn, dude has been great right out of the gate even at tackling. He has saved our asses a couple times.

Seems to be a born leader and a great man off the field as well.

Congrats to Jessie Bates III. Awesome player, i think he will be better than Reggie for us.

Let’s hope! It’s just nice to see and few silver linings on the D, it means that there are some nice building blocks in place.