Green is great-but is he really ELITE?

[The Caped Crusader]

I think in a passing league, numbers can diminish the ideology of what is 'elite'. Sure, the ability to have consecutive 1000 yard seasons is impressive but I don't think it's a reason to hail him as an elite talent. And no, I'm not saying I don't think he is elite.

He has the ability to be elite but I don't think I have seen him break that mold yet. All too often I have seen him do things incorrectly, whether it be a poor route or just not fighting for the ball. Not only that, but when he braces for tackles, the ball is not braced.

Regardless, I like AJ and it's hard to point fingers at him and pick him apart because I don't think he is some punk kid. He is a good guy and I do believe he goes out there. I wish him the best (like everyone on the team) and I just want to succeed. If that means him being elite, so be it, if that means him being another good player on the team, so be it.

[McC]

(09-14-2015, 11:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've read tons of comments from non-Bengals fans saying that AJ wasn't worth what DT, Dez and Julio got. Opinion of him doesn't seem to be as positive as it was a couple years ago. Of course, he did have a down season with injuries, so I'm sure that plays into it.


It does feel like he's in a slump. Honestly, I'd like AJ's personality if he were a friend of mine. He seems cool as a cucumber. As a football player though, I wish he'd show a little fire sometimes. What made Jerry Rice so great was the intense desire and drive he had. I just don't see that with AJ sometimes. 

I'm sure some will just think I'm hating on him, but whatever. I want the dude to be the best WR of all-time, but he's going to need some fire in his belly to get to that level. For example, Haden owns him. Instead of that driving him to be even better, I feel like AJ just gets frustrated and down on himself.


It's pretty much like this with any player or coach. Poster A points out flaws while poster B gets butt hurt. 

It'd be nice if we could have a reasonable discussion on how AJ could get better, or any player/coach for that matter.

But do we have to have the discussion every other day?  The obsessive need to pick this guy apart repeatedly is getting downright silly.

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 11:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's pretty much like this with any player or coach. Poster A points out flaws while poster B gets butt hurt. 

It'd be nice if we could have a reasonable discussion on how AJ could get better, or any player/coach for that matter.

(09-15-2015, 12:01 AM)PApinhead Wrote: ^^^^^ This is one of my biggest complaints.  Why can't we just have discussions without them turning into insults and name calling?  

If you guys want a reasonable discussion then give me reasonable arguments.

Don't expect bullshit logic and terrible analogies to have reasonable responses. If someone wants to be a normal human being about A.J. then we can have a fine discussion but it goes south the second people start throwing stupid arguments into the mix.

Like how is A.J. "in a slump"?? Oh, you mean the one game we've played so far? I guess if you consider 1 game a slump to be concerned about then...uuhh..yeah seems like you guys already have a preconceived opinion that won't be changing. I have no problem admitting he didn't play a good game in Oakland, but it's still just 1 game.

Late last season A.J. put up the most explosive game of his CAREER and will go down as one of his best games as a professional when it's all said and done. Then he was dealing with injury again to close out the year. Someone explain to me how this is a slump.

This isn't one of the terrible arguments I was talking about earlier, I was referring to the other guys I've already gone off on yesterday. As far as the slump thing, I was actually going to agree with Shake until I realized that late last year he had some great showings of fire and explosiveness again and that I'd basically be calling the single Oakland game a "slump" which doesn't seem fair IMO.

Like I said, give good arguments and we can have a real discussion. People saying he isn't elite because of drops are either dumb, biased, or don't watch football outside of Cincinnati to realize he doesn't drop passes more often than others that are unquestionably elite. People that say that only Hall of Fame players are elite and they name non-HoF players as elite will get called out for it. People that make an awful, nonsensical analogy about Andy will get called out for it.

You guys are funny by bashing the people who are opposing stupid logic instead of questioning the guys making stupid arguments themselves.

[jj22]

Some posters can dish it out, but can't take it when it comes to their favorite players. Like most people said, Greens issues aren't a secret around the league. Even on Mike and Mike this morning they said Green "drops the ball a lot" but is still a good receiver (while discussing what Eifert brings to the Offense, "elite hands" that Dalton can rely on).

[PApinhead]

(09-15-2015, 07:42 AM)djs7685 Wrote: If you guys want a reasonable discussion then give me reasonable arguments.

Don't expect bullshit logic and terrible analogies to have reasonable responses. If someone wants to be a normal human being about A.J. then we can have a fine discussion but it goes south the second people start throwing stupid arguments into the mix.

Like how is A.J. "in a slump"?? Oh, you mean the one game we've played so far? I guess if you consider 1 game a slump to be concerned about then...uuhh..yeah seems like you guys already have a preconceived opinion that won't be changing. I have no problem admitting he didn't play a good game in Oakland, but it's still just 1 game.

Late last season A.J. put up the most explosive game of his CAREER and will go down as one of his best games as a professional when it's all said and done. Then he was dealing with injury again to close out the year. Someone explain to me how this is a slump.

This isn't one of the terrible arguments I was talking about earlier, I was referring to the other guys I've already gone off on yesterday. As far as the slump thing, I was actually going to agree with Shake until I realized that late last year he had some great showings of fire and explosiveness again and that I'd basically be calling the single Oakland game a "slump" which doesn't seem fair IMO.

Like I said, give good arguments and we can have a real discussion. People saying he isn't elite because of drops are either dumb, biased, or don't watch football outside of Cincinnati to realize he doesn't drop passes more often than others that are unquestionably elite. People that say that only Hall of Fame players are elite and they name non-HoF players as elite will get called out for it. People that make an awful, nonsensical analogy about Andy will get called out for it.

You guys are funny by bashing the people who are opposing stupid logic instead of questioning the guys making stupid arguments themselves.

Really?  Some of us do give good arguments, but just because you don't agree with what we say, you say people "are either dumb, biased, or don't watch football outside of Cincinnati...."  I watch a lot of football, as much as I can, which is probably more than some, and probably a little less than others.  I watch on TV, in the stands, and on the sidelines, so I don't want to hear about not watching it outside of Cincinnati.

AJ is a great receiver on my favorite team.  I wish I could say he is the best receiver in the NFL, but I am not biased and don't think he is.  As stated earlier, I think he is close to being elite, but not quite.  Again, I am not just using the drops in my assessment.  I am using the drops, the times when he doesn't seem to fight for the ball, the routes he sometimes runs.  I know the "elite" do that too, but AJ just seems to do it a little more often than them.  This is MY opinion based on my years of experience playing, coaching, and watching.  You are not going to change it no matter how many times you call me dumb, biased, etc...  You can think he is elite and it doesn't bother me one bit.

As far as the being "funny by bashing the people who are opposing stupid logic....," is it really bashing to say I wish we could have good discussions without the name calling and insults?  A lot of times if I read something I may think is a "stupid argument," I just read it and move on.  If I do comment, I offer my view or opinion without resorting to insults.

[djs7685]

(09-15-2015, 10:02 AM)jj22 Wrote: Some posters can dish it out, but can't take it when it comes to their favorite players. Like most people said, Greens issues aren't a secret around the league. Even on Mike and Mike this morning they said Green "drops the ball a lot" but is still a good receiver (while discussing what Eifert brings to the Offense, "elite hands" that Dalton can rely on).

Weren't you just crying like a little baby in the other thread claiming that people "ignore" everything other QBs do but bash Andy for it? Sooo, you're essentially doing the same thing here, right? You're ignoring what receivers around the league do so you can cry and whine about what A.J. does wrong, or supposedly does wrong I should say. Via OrlandoBengal, here are some numbers for drop rates since A.J. has been in the league compared to his elite peers. Looks like you need to stop "ignoring" reality.

The only thing unacceptable about Green's drop rate is in 2015 he has a drop on only around 8 targets. If he continues that pace, then I'll be the first in line to complain!

2014:

Dez 3.7
Julion 3.1
Jordy 2.7
Calvin 2.3
AJ 1.7

2013:
Calvin 5.1
AJ 3.9
Dez 3.8
Julio 3.3
Jordy 2.4

2012:
Jordy 8.2
Dez 6.5
Julio 6.2
AJ 5.5
Calvin 5.4

2011:
Julio 6.3
Calvin 3.8
AJ 2.6
Jordy 2.1
Dez 1.9

(09-15-2015, 10:09 AM)PApinhead Wrote: Really?  Some of us do give good arguments, but just because you don't agree with what we say, you say people "are either dumb, biased, or don't watch football outside of Cincinnati...."  I watch a lot of football, as much as I can, which is probably more than some, and probably a little less than others.  I watch on TV, in the stands, and on the sidelines, so I don't want to hear about not watching it outside of Cincinnati.

AJ is a great receiver on my favorite team.  I wish I could say he is the best receiver in the NFL, but I am not biased and don't think he is.  As stated earlier, I think he is close to being elite, but not quite.  Again, I am not just using the drops in my assessment.  I am using the drops, the times when he doesn't seem to fight for the ball, the routes he sometimes runs.  I know the "elite" do that too, but AJ just seems to do it a little more often than them.  This is MY opinion based on my years of experience playing, coaching, and watching.  You are not going to change it no matter how many times you call me dumb, biased, etc...  You can think he is elite and it doesn't bother me one bit.

As far as the being "funny by bashing the people who are opposing stupid logic....," is it really bashing to say I wish we could have good discussions without the name calling and insults?  A lot of times if I read something I may think is a "stupid argument," I just read it and move on.  If I do comment, I offer my view or opinion without resorting to insults.

I think you took more of that post to be directed at you than it was supposed to be. I wasn't referring to you not watching other teams play and I'm certainly willing to entertain legitimate arguments if you have put them out there.

[djs7685]

(09-15-2015, 10:02 AM)jj22 Wrote: Some posters can dish it out, but can't take it when it comes to their favorite players. Like most people said, Greens issues aren't a secret around the league. Even on Mike and Mike this morning they said Green "drops the ball a lot" but is still a good receiver (while discussing what Eifert brings to the Offense, "elite hands" that Dalton can rely on).

Why do you cry and play the victim when the national media has negative things to say about Andy, but it becomes gospel when they say negative things about A.J.???

You make no sense anymore. Your arguments consistently contradict each other and you just make stuff up to create imaginary points to go along with your narrative. Such a shame that you have to resort to these tactics now.

[jj22]

I think you may be upset with Greeny and Golic for that post. I just referenced what they said this morning. Rough night?

[djs7685]

(09-15-2015, 10:29 AM)jj22 Wrote: I think you may be upset with Greeny and Golic for that post. I just referenced what they said this morning. Rough night?

No, your posts are just completely contradicting each other and I'm pointing out the hypocrisy and illogical points.

Rough life?

[jj22]

Me? Lol. I'm very blessed if you want to know the truth.

[fredtoast]

I have posted this before and someone may have mentioned it already in this thread, but at times no one is harder on a player then the fans of his own team.

Other elite WRs drop just as many passes as AJ, but we don't see many of those other drops When we see another great WR drop a pass we think it is just random, but whe we see one of our own players do it then it becomes a pattern.

Then all you have to do is let a little of this whining get a good foothold in the messageboard/talkradio world and it become truth. Id say most of you do noot remember when Justin Smith was here and all of his tackles supposedly were 5 yards downfield. For years Leon Hall played on an elite level as a CB, but many Bengal fans still claimed he "struggled with speedy receivers", and it took Whitworth years of playing at an

Same thing is happening with Green. AJ has no doubt produced at an elite level for his career. He is 3rd all-time in NFL history in receiving yards per game. There can be some argument about if he is the best WR in the league right now. But theree should be no real debate that he is elite.

[djs7685]

(09-15-2015, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have posted this before and someone may have mentioned it already in this thread, but at times no one is harder on a player then the fans of his own team.

Other elite WRs drop just as many passes as AJ, but we don't see many of those other drops  When we see another great WR drop a pass we think it is just random, but whe we see one of our own players do it then it becomes a pattern.

Then all you have to do is let a little of this whining get a good foothold in the messageboard/talkradio world and it become truth.  Id say most of you do noot remember when Justin Smith was here and all of his tackles supposedly were 5 yards downfield.  For years Leon Hall played on an elite level as a CB, but many Bengal fans still claimed he "struggled with speedy receivers", and it took Whitworth years of playing at an

Same thing is happening with Green.  AJ has no doubt produced at an elite level for his career.  He is 3rd all-time in NFL history in receiving yards per game.  There can be some argument about if he is the best WR in the league right now.  But theree should be no real debate that he is elite.

It takes a lot of twisting, turning, and nitpicking to consider Green not elite if you compare his career to his peers.

That twisting, turning, and nitpicking happens in every thread like this by the exact same people though. As you pointed out, people always tend to do it to our better players for some reason.

I watched Dez Bryant drop an easy catch in the red zone on third down in primetime the other night, and it did absolutely nothing to his stock in my eyes. I've watched Calvin Johnson and Antonio Brown drop routine balls, and those are the 3 guys I consider to be top in the league right now. A.J. doesn't have drops at an insanely higher rate than any of those guys, and his is actually lower than some of the other ellte guys.

I can understand the aggression and fighting for the ball that some people want to see, but that's about the beginning and end of A.J.'s issues, and it's not like those things are constantly causing a problem for the team.

[Shake n Blake]

When I said that it feels like AJ has been in a bit of a slump, I obviously wasn't talking about one game. Anyone with common sense would realize that a "slump" = multiple games. 

AJ has had 63 yards or less in 6 of his last 10 games. Obviously he was dealing with injury last year, so he has a valid excuse, but it'd still be nice to see him come out and dominate like he has in the past. He had a rough game in week one, but I'm very confident that he'll bounce back in a big way soon.

As for whether or not AJ is "elite", it's totally subjective and honestly these debates can get kinda silly. I definitely think AJ is top 10. I think he's in the top 5 or close to it at least. His ability is off the charts. I do feel like he could be used better by the coaching staff. I also feel that while he doesn't have an abnormal amount of drops, he does seem to drop some key passes. 

The end zone drop against the Raiders, some recent drops on deep passes, the drop against the Cowboys a couple years ago that would've been an easy game-winning TD. These are just a few that come to mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an AJ hater. I just feel like if he can be a little more reliable in key moments, he could be the best WR in football.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-14-2015, 09:57 AM)Whacked Wrote: Love him and thankful to have him but not sure he ELITE

Too many dropped simple passes and does not fight for the ball amongst other petty things

Don't get me wrong - I think he is excellent but not ELITE 

(*Cue the homers..........)

I agree with you as of now. That pass from Dalton last Sunday was perfect and an elite
receiver brings that one in. Sometimes he just does not fight for the ball hard enough and
the elite receivers fight for the ball big time, that is what makes them elite.

He has the size and the speed i just question his heart at times.

[Rhinocero23]

(09-14-2015, 09:57 AM)Whacked Wrote: Love him and thankful to have him but not sure he ELITE

Too many dropped simple passes and does not fight for the ball amongst other petty things

Don't get me wrong - I think he is excellent but not ELITE 

(*Cue the homers..........)

Serious question? How many elite receivers come to mind that have a QB in the lower tier of the league? 

[wolfkaosaun]

Yes. AJ Green is an elite receiver.

Last year he had 7 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 5 of those games he had 100 or more yards. One game he had over 200 yards.
He had 4 games under 60 yards (not including the Denver game where he was visibly hurt).
Green played in 12 games, including the Denver game.

Dez Bryant had 9 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 4 of those games he had 100 or more yards. None with over 200 yards.
Bryant also had 4 games where he had under 60 yards.
Bryant played in all 16 games.

Calvin Johnson had 7 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 5 of those games he had 100 or more yards. None with over 200 yards.
Johnson had 6 games where he had under 60 yards.
Johnson played in 13 games. One game he was hurt early on, the other he left in the third quarter.

AJ Green's numbers are pretty much on par with them, even with missing time.

[McC]

(09-16-2015, 06:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When I said that it feels like AJ has been in a bit of a slump, I obviously wasn't talking about one game. Anyone with common sense would realize that a "slump" = multiple games. 

AJ has had 63 yards or less in 6 of his last 10 games. Obviously he was dealing with injury last year, so he has a valid excuse, but it'd still be nice to see him come out and dominate like he has in the past. He had a rough game in week one, but I'm very confident that he'll bounce back in a big way soon.

As for whether or not AJ is "elite", it's totally subjective and honestly these debates can get kinda silly. I definitely think AJ is top 10. I think he's in the top 5 or close to it at least. His ability is off the charts. I do feel like he could be used better by the coaching staff. I also feel that while he doesn't have an abnormal amount of drops, he does seem to drop some key passes. 

The end zone drop against the Raiders, some recent drops on deep passes, the drop against the Cowboys a couple years ago that would've been an easy game-winning TD. These are just a few that come to mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an AJ hater. I just feel like if he can be a little more reliable in key moments, he could be the best WR in football.

Wasn't AJ on a pretty nice roll before the injuries started piling up?  Like you said, the injuries were the reason why.  But he didn't seem to be in a slump before he started getting hurt.

I think the phenomenon is that no matter how great a thing might be, there will always be people wanting to knock holes in it. 

Guys like AJ, as I know you know and have expressed--the player on the field, the guy off it--these guys don't come around very often.

IMO, AJ's faults have been well documented, so the quota has been filled.

[The Caped Crusader]

A lot of interesting conversations going on in here.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-16-2015, 08:30 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Serious question? How many elite receivers come to mind that have a QB in the lower tier of the league? 

Let's talk about what have you done for me lately as well Rhino.

Dalton looked like an elite QB to me against the Raiders. Green, was alright.

Eifert looked elite.

AJ Green has not looked the same to me since his turf toe injury honestly.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-16-2015, 08:36 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Yes. AJ Green is an elite receiver.

Last year he had 7 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 5 of those games he had 100 or more yards. One game he had over 200 yards.
He had 4 games under 60 yards (not including the Denver game where he was visibly hurt).
Green played in 12 games, including the Denver game.

Dez Bryant had 9 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 4 of those games he had 100 or more yards. None with over 200 yards.
Bryant also had 4 games where he had under 60 yards.
Bryant played in all 16 games.

Calvin Johnson had 7 games where he had 80 or more receiving yards. 5 of those games he had 100 or more yards. None with over 200 yards.
Johnson had 6 games where he had under 60 yards.
Johnson played in 13 games. One game he was hurt early on, the other he left in the third quarter.

AJ Green's numbers are pretty much on par with them, even with missing time.

(09-16-2015, 08:43 PM)McC Wrote: Wasn't AJ on a pretty nice roll before the injuries started piling up?  Like you said, the injuries were the reason why.  But he didn't seem to be in a slump before he started getting hurt.

I think the phenomenon is that no matter how great a thing might be, there will always be people wanting to knock holes in it. 

Guys like AJ, as I know you know and have expressed--the player on the field, the guy off it--these guys don't come around very often.

IMO, AJ's faults have been well documented, so the quota has been filled.

Yeah, injuries were definately the biggest reason for Green's fall off last season.

I just want to see his hands get better myself. Dude is tall and fast and extremely talented.

What is nice is having Eifert, MLJ, Hill, Mo and Gio healthy. This WILL open up plays for AJ if they stay healthy knock on wood.