Marvin Lewis's true failure as HC

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-29-2018, 01:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: THE PITTSBURGH STEELERS

Marvin's overall record against them is 8-25 including playoffs. Eight wins out of thirty three chances ! He loses over 3/4's of the time.

Marvin has a home record of 2-16 against them including playoffs. They own us at PBS !

Pittsburgh has swept Marvin Lewis led teams 8 times probably soon to be 9 in 16 seasons. At or over half the time.

In 2006 just as one of many examples all we had to do was beat a Steeler team to end the season that wasn't having a good year (8-8) and we lost. We have lost to the Steelers late in the season on numerous times busting up any confidence we've had.

Since the 2015 melt down in the playoffs this team is 0-6 vs. the Steelers ! This season we were 4-1 going in the first match up against the Steelers, we lost in heart breaking fashion, again. We're 1-4 since.

One could go on citing examples of the Steelers taking the wind out of our sails. And to me this is the main reason why:

I caught Jonathan Vilma on Monday morning talking about college ball but it so hits Marvin's problem right on the head !

He said words to the effect of "Michigan can't beat Ohio St, because Harbaugh goes uber conservative, run left, run right, pass on 3rd and long, and play not to lose. It's the same reason (I forget the SEC team he cited, LSU ? Georgia ?) can't beat Alabama." "Why not get out of your comfort zone and do something different? "

It's the main reason we fall short time and time again against the Steelers and it comes from our HC. We go in against them with our tail tucked between our legs, uber conservative, same game plan time and again, play the odds, play the numbers, field position, rely on your defense, blah, blah. It's not about going for it on 4th down that's mostly desperation. Or fake FG's.

It's about showing some innovation on 1st down. Coming up with a game plan to attack their weakness. Using our weapons and using them a lot. Not going back to the field position game the nano second we get a lead. Attack, attack, attack ! And ML won't do it. He has to stay in his safe zone and we're never going to win like that.

We'll never get over the hump until we get the Steelers monkey off our back.

Even if we won the Superbowl in his time this would still be unacceptable anywhere else to lose to your rival like this.

No doubt Marv's true failure, such a true post brother.

[McC]

(11-29-2018, 03:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I guess I view things differently then.
I think of things this way...
Would I rather the Bengals sweep the Steelers every year but just barely miss the playoffs?
Or would I rather the Bengals get swept by the Steelers but make it to the AFC Championship game, Super Bowl, or win it all?

I'd choose the latter.

Yes, but losses to the Steelers usually has a direct impact on getting to the playoffs.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-29-2018, 03:19 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Steelers are not only one of the big dogs in the yard that you have to contend with annually, but they are a usually a playoff caliber division opponent that you get to test your mettle against a twice year. If you're losing every game against them as you say, or even getting dominated by losing 25 of 33, as they've done in reality...you're not going to be very well prepared for an even bigger stage, with even more pressure. 

Exactly

They can't get past point A (Steelers) so B  (playoff wins) and C (Super Bowl) are completely out of reach.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-29-2018, 03:30 PM)McC Wrote: Yes, but losses to the Steelers usually has a direct impact on getting to the playoffs.

But so would have, for example, losing to the Chiefs or Saints or Panthers. If Bengals had beaten those three teams, they'd be 8-3, right in the mix for best record in the AFC.

[Bengalholic]

(11-29-2018, 03:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree with that and I guess I should clarify my point because I think there's some confusion...
If the Bengals were really beating most every other "good" team except the Steelers, it probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be that big of a deal that the keep losing to the Steelers.
But in reality, they often lose to other teams like the Steelers as well, and therein lies the bigger problem.

So in other words, I agree that the Bengals need to get better at beating the good teams. I don't think it's as big of a deal if they keep losing to the Steelers provided they can beat most other good teams and go deep into the playoffs (which they aren't doing).

Gotcha.  :andy:

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-29-2018, 03:30 PM)McC Wrote: Yes, but losses to the Steelers usually has a direct impact on getting to the playoffs.

Exactly,

There's more than one season in ML's tenure where not getting swept by the Steelers, or losing to them at the end may well have changed everything ?

[McC]

(11-29-2018, 03:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But so would have, for example, losing to the Chiefs or Saints or Panthers. If Bengals had beaten those three teams, they'd be 8-3, right in the mix for best record in the AFC.

Very true.  You are playing the Steelers twice and getting swept by them is pretty detrimental.  And maybe if you can get your head right enough to take down your own personal bully, maybe that puts you in a way better place against the other top teams. 

Believing is huge.  And the Bengals don't have that belief.  What better place to find it than against the rotten rivals?

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-29-2018, 03:40 PM)McC Wrote: Very true.  You are playing the Steelers twice and getting swept by them is pretty detrimental.  And maybe if you can get your head right enough to take down your own personal bully, maybe that puts you in a way better place against the other top teams. 

Believing is huge.  And the Bengals don't have that belief.  What better place to find it than against the rotten rivals?

Right !

You can see it on their faces, you can see it the way they play them the vast majority of the time. The whole team is walking around clinching a finishing nail in their butt cheeks waiting on the dam to break, Marvin Lewis included. They don't BELIEVE !

Until Merv and the Bengals can find the confidence, moxy, mo-jo, and heart to excise this demon in the regular season they're never going to be able to play on the big stage in December and after.

[fredtoast]

Last game of '06.  Bengals win puts them in playoffs.  Tie game.  Palmer hits Henry on a 47 yard pass to get to the Steelers 20 with 0:23 left.  Graham misses a chip shot game winning FG.  Bengals lose in overtime.  

2015 playoffs. Bengals lead 16-15 with 1:36 left with the ball at Steelers 26.  Roethlisberger injured shoulder.  Lose 18-16
2016.  Bengals build 20-6 lead.  Lose 24-20.
2017.  Bengals build 17-0 lead.  Lose 23-20 on FG with 0:00 left.
2018.  Bengals lead 21-20 with 10 seconds left. Lose on 31 yd td.

It is just one gut-punch after another.  And you can't blame Marvin for all of it.  Graham missing a chippy is not on Marvin.

[Bengalholic]

(11-29-2018, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last game of '06.  Bengals win puts them in playoffs.  Tie game.  Palmer hits Henry on a 47 yard pass to get to the Steelers 20 with 0:23 left.  Graham misses a chip shot game winning FG.  Bengals lose in overtime.  You can't blame that on Marvin.

2015 playoffs. Bengals lead 16-15 with 1:36 left with the ball at Steelers 26.  Roethlisberger injured shoulder.  Lose 18-16
2016.  Bengals build 20-6 lead.  Lose 24-20.
2017.  Bengals build 17-0 lead.  Lose 23-20 on FG with 0:00 left.
2018.  Bengals lead 21-20 with 10 seconds left. Lose on 31 yd td.

Notice a pattern in not only the games you've listed, but the overall playoff games as well? 

Bengals either have a lead at the half, or at least are competitive...then comes the familiar second half meltdown, and/or finding a way to lose in the final minutes.

This isn't an occasional thing with the Steelers or the playoffs. It's the norm..and that means the coach absolutely shares the blame.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-29-2018, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Last game of '06.  Bengals win puts them in playoffs.  Tie game.  Palmer hits Henry on a 47 yard pass to get to the Steelers 20 with 0:23 left.  Graham misses a chip shot game winning FG.  Bengals lose in overtime.  

  Graham missing a chippy is not on Marvin.

Oh I don't know, I'm sure we could blame Merv for not going for a TD in that situation. I don't remember the game at all, but I can bet you anything that as soon as they were in FG range, Merv ran the ball to run the clock out and didn't even try to score a TD.

Yes, I know that a FG that wins the game is more likely and makes a TD unnecessary, but I'm just providing a way you can blame Merv for that.

[samhain]

It's got to be something in culture/prep for perceived big games. Even with the heated and violent nature of the Steelers rivalry, he rarely seems to get overly worked up. Maybe he's trying to be calm as an example to his team to maintain poise. I'd be okay with that approach if it actually worked in these critical situations.

it's just damn near impossible to explain and honestly probably grounds for firing him. They've lost games they had no right to lose vs PIT. 2015 playoffs are one example. Another would be the game in Pittsburgh where Garvin whacked Huber. The Steelers were nowhere near the team the Bengals were that year. They just came out determined to beat them up and did.

Same deal with KC this year. Big primetime game vs one of the best in the league. I never expected the Bengals to win that game, but the overall performance was completely uninspired and DOA. That offense as going to hammer our D, but Andy and the offense should have been able to put up numbers vs that defense. Instead, just a flat out awful showing after a long week of prep.

[fredtoast]

(11-29-2018, 04:22 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Notice a pattern in not only the games you've listed, but the overall playoff games as well? 

Bengals either have a lead at the half, or at least are competitive...then comes the familiar second half meltdown, and/or finding a way to lose in the final minutes.

This isn't an occasional thing with the Steelers or the playoffs. It's the norm..and that means the coach absolutely shares the blame.

Actually I don't see any pattern at all.

You can't say Marvin doesn't get the team up because sometimes we come out blazing and build a big lead, but on the other hand sometimes we get beta from the opening kickoff.

Sometimes we come back in dramatic fashion like the '06 game or the loss earlier this year, but we still find a way to lose.

Some times it seems like just bad luck, but luck equals out over 15 years and it never has with the Steelers and Bengals.

All I know is that it sucks.

[Bengalholic]

(11-29-2018, 05:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I don't see any pattern at all.

You can't say Marvin doesn't get the team up because sometimes we come out blazing and build a big lead, but on the other hand sometimes we get beta from the opening kickoff.

Sometimes we come back in dramatic fashion like the '06 game or the loss earlier this year, but we still find a way to lose.

Some times it seems like just bad luck, but luck equals out over 15 years and it never has with the Steelers and Bengals.

All I know is that it sucks.

The bold is something we definitely agree on brother.