First pick of the draft(s) anyone?

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2018, 07:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Other teams make bad picks too.  The difference is that most teams don't keep those players around for the entirely of their contracts.  Most teams acknowledge the mistake, and move forward in a more positive direction.

Some might point toward the team picking up Cordy Glenn and Bobby Hart, and claim that they indeed took some action.  However, I put that into the "too little, too late" pile, not unakin to pissing on a forest fire in an attempt to put it out.  Hell, they let a future HOF Tackle walk out the door, by giving him the only out of line offer that he received.  They could have addressed the OL needs more thoroughly in any of the past 3 drafts, but they chose not to.  Instead, they chose to ride or die with the bad picks that they selected.

I forget who we took in the 1st round this past draft.

You can be mad at the picks all you want, but they have tried to address it. Cordy Glenn was about the best we could have hoped for. We recently spent a 1st and 2nd round on Olinemen. We recently re-signed Boling and we replaced our oline coach.

You can put it in the "too little, too late" category if you want; but they've tried. 

[McC]

(12-05-2018, 05:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: It was more what happened after that when the line started to crumble.  They were slow to react, and put out a subpar unit behind those guys.  Same as what's happened now after Whit, Dre, Z, Boling.

Pre-acting has never been one of Mike's staples, which is unfortunate, what with his reactive ability being so terrible.  

[McC]

(12-05-2018, 08:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I forget who we took in the 1st round this past draft.

You can be mad at the picks all you want, but they have tried to address it. Cordy Glenn was about the best we could have hoped for. We recently spent a 1st and 2nd round on Olinemen. We recently re-signed Boling and we replaced our oline coach.

You can put it in the "too little, too late" category if you want; but they've tried. 

And this is the Bengals Catch-22.  When they do nothing, it blows up in their faces.  When they try to do something, it blows up in their faces.  Might have something to do with their lack of ability.

[*psychdoctor*]

(12-05-2018, 05:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals sure do like to draft WR's and RB's and CB's though!

It has been the Brown family philosophy to draft "skilled players" early and draft others later and develop, especially regarding O-Line personnel.  I think McNally was great at developing late bloomers O-Line prospects but Alexander did not as a rule.  He had Big Willy who was already talented and Whit who he moved to guard.  

The teams will draft Backers but usually in later rounds and same goes for D-Line.  

[THE PISTONS]

(12-05-2018, 09:12 PM)McC Wrote: And this is the Bengals Catch-22.  When they do nothing, it blows up in their faces.  When they try to do something, it blows up in their faces.  Might have something to do with their lack of ability.

One has to wonder if that has to do with the lack of scouts.

Glenn had been hurt a lot over the past 2 years. Price? I don't know what his deal is.

[XsandOs]

Bengals generally spend draft and dollar capital on QBs, WRs, OTs, CBs and DEs.

OL has always been a focal point of draft (Levi, Willie, Steinbach, Whit, Smith, Zeitler, Ced, Price, etc.). And when they
 OTs perform, they have gotten second contracts, generally. 

The 2015 OL draft has caused a problem that cannot be fixed in one year. Changing from a power to zone blocking, plus having a new LT, C and RT, takes time.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-05-2018, 05:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well if we're fair they did address it, they just made some bad picks. 

That part is true of the current issue....the end of the Palmer era was pretty bad.  I remember 09 running a TON of unbalanced sets to make up for the deficiencies.  So, when you consider that, I guess they did learn their lesson, they just totally botched their plan.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-05-2018, 07:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Other teams make bad picks too.  The difference is that most teams don't keep those players around for the entirely of their contracts.  Most teams acknowledge the mistake, and move forward in a more positive direction.

Some might point toward the team picking up Cordy Glenn and Bobby Hart, and claim that they indeed took some action.  However, I put that into the "too little, too late" pile, not unakin to pissing on a forest fire in an attempt to put it out.  Hell, they let a future HOF Tackle walk out the door, by giving him the only out of line offer that he received.  They could have addressed the OL needs more thoroughly in any of the past 3 drafts, but they chose not to.  Instead, they chose to ride or die with the bad picks that they selected.

Yeah, for the life of me, I cannot comprehend why Cedric Ogbuehi is still on this team.  Why would you even waste a roster spot?

(12-05-2018, 08:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I forget who we took in the 1st round this past draft.

You can be mad at the picks all you want, but they have tried to address it. Cordy Glenn was about the best we could have hoped for. We recently spent a 1st and 2nd round on Olinemen. We recently re-signed Boling and we replaced our oline coach.

You can put it in the "too little, too late" category if you want; but they've tried. 

They did try, and I actually applauded the moves in the offseason.  The problem I have, and what I think Sunset is touching on, is that 70 should have been gone long ago, and even if you lost Whit, you shouldn't have rolled into 2017 with him starting at LT.  There is no way that should have happened.  As soon as they lost Whit, they should have been working their tails off to get a serviceable LT in FA....or even working on a deal as they were negotiating with Whit as a fail safe.

I get it.  They didn't want to gamble on Whitworth.....that's not necessarily a bad decision when we look at it objectively.  However, anyone with a set of functioning eyes and some form of brain activity could tell Cedric Ogbuehi would never make it at this level.  At least not on this team, anyway.  Not only is he a terrible player, he seems to have zero heart out there.  Bad combination.  Relying on him was beyond stupid.

[BengalChris]

Even though the Bengals are a sinking freighter and move like one, there are 12 teams with a worse record right now. No doubt the Bengals will sink further and get a top 10 pick, but we are far the status of Clevelands of the world (even if they beat us again this year).

[*ochocincos*]

I typically stop dedicating my time to watching the games once I think the Bengals are out of contention, so intentionally performing terribly just to get the first overall pick would make me stop watching completely.

[3wt]

(12-05-2018, 04:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not sure it’s fair to state we didn’t address the trenches. The year before CP we drafted Levi. The year we took CP we also drafted Stienbach with our 2nd rd. The following year we signed Bobbie Williams,  In 05 we took the 3rd Center in the draft and arguably the best prospect at the position. In 06 we drafted Whit and resigned the best RT in the game.

Agree with this.


The problem has been whiffing on recent high draft pics and failing to resign the good linemen we have - something that was widely supported by many on this board.

Imagine where we'd be if we'd signed both Whit and Zeitler before their free agency year and not whiffed on both the top 2015 pics.

It doesn't take a lot to totally derail a franchise, and we managed to make two categories of colossal failures in two years.

I believe one of the perps was fired, but I have to believe the whole issue with resigning Whit and Zeit was a consensus.

But to be fair, Alexander and the Bengals drafted and developed a lot of good O Linemen.   The only problem with Steinbach was he had trouble anchoring against big dudes.   Cost us a Super Bowl I believe.   Still, he was a very good lineman on a very good line.

[3wt]

(12-06-2018, 12:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: One has to wonder if that has to do with the lack of scouts.

Glenn had been hurt a lot over the past 2 years. Price? I don't know what his deal is.

I think they identify good players, I think their philosophy in drafting them is more the problem.  You can look at Jefferson this year as an example: great athlete, high upside but low floor.  We made the same mistake with Akili Smith, Og and Fisher.   You add to that players we draft in the later rounds or UDFAs that have high floors (mentally - think Nickerson) but little if no adequate upside.

The disappointment for me is that they have overcome that tendency before (Whit, Vigil, Montoya, Walter, Reimers, Braham), but drifted into an overly speculative trend (if they have the talent but no brains - just draft them and we'll "coach them up")

I don't think it's a lack of scouts.   Every team has their chain of multi player fails.

[fortyyearfan]

(12-05-2018, 12:10 PM)grampahol Wrote: Not that I have any faith whatsoever that the Bungles would ever draft and develop the first overall pick of any draft worth a hoot, but the first pick of the draft for the better part of the past decade has been Cleveland's super bowl and now they're on the precipice of not having the first pick unless they trade up for it (which is not beyond the realm of possibility) .
So...instead of thinking that this (by this I mean just about every season) might be our year just scrap that thinking in favor of just aiming for the first overall pick every year so that every season we'll have at least something to hang our collective hats on.. 
See where I'm going with this?  We pretty much know that we ain't gonna win a championship with Mikey & company and we pretty much know we ain't gonna win a playoff game either. The best we've been able to realistically hope for is to win a divisional championship which as we all know is the equivalent of , well..nothing in Bungleville.. 
So instead of predetermined disappointment we've been subjected to since the death of Paul Brown (actually before then I think) why not just be satisfied with celebrations of getting the first overall pick irregardless of whether those players might or might not ever be worth a bag of used toilet paper. 
Anyone remember the excitement of getting the first overall pick? I've kind of missed that few moments of  thinking, Hey! We got the best ..(whatever position)  Now despite the fact that we've never really cashed in on the first overall pick it was still more exciting than the 9th pick or 4th or whatever.  I'm all in on the idea of properly sucking instead of just kind of sucking..
We know we'll never get the last pick so we might as well aim for the first pick year after year after year and quit worrying about being disappointed come January.. What say you? 

Does not really matter,still 8 and 8 next year and pissburg will win the division again unless Marvin is gone and most of this staff.

[XsandOs]

(12-06-2018, 10:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: They did try, and I actually applauded the moves in the offseason.  The problem I have, and what I think Sunset is touching on, is that 70 should have been gone long ago, and even if you lost Whit, you shouldn't have rolled into 2017 with him starting at LT.  There is no way that should have happened.  As soon as they lost Whit, they should have been working their tails off to get a serviceable LT in FA....or even working on a deal as they were negotiating with Whit as a fail safe.

I get it.  They didn't want to gamble on Whitworth.....that's not necessarily a bad decision when we look at it objectively.  However, anyone with a set of functioning eyes and some form of brain activity could tell Cedric Ogbuehi would never make it at this level.  At least not on this team, anyway.  Not only is he a terrible player, he seems to have zero heart out there.  Bad combination.  Relying on him was beyond stupid.

That's fair.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-06-2018, 12:49 AM)XsandOs Wrote: Bengals generally spend draft and dollar capital on QBs, WRs, OTs, CBs and DEs.

OL has always been a focal point of draft (Levi, Willie, Steinbach, Whit, Smith, Zeitler, Ced, Price, etc.). And when they
 OTs perform, they have gotten second contracts, generally. 

The 2015 OL draft has caused a problem that cannot be fixed in one year. Changing from a power to zone blocking, plus having a new LT, C and RT, takes time.

Yep. Anytime you rely near 100% on draft to fill needs and let high priced players go to be replaced with draft picks...you're in trouble if you miss.

That said, only like 40% of 1st Round picks pan out.

So, IF you let a Pro Bowl Tackle go in Whitworth and draft a Tackle, there's like a 60% change you drastically downgrade that position.

Multiply that by all the guys we let go like Zeitler, Nelson, Jones, Sanu, etc.

We've had more than our share of misses lately.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-07-2018, 11:00 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. Anytime you rely near 100% on draft to fill needs and let high priced players go to be replaced with draft picks...you're in trouble if you miss.

That said, only like 40% of 1st Round picks pan out.

So, IF you let a Pro Bowl Tackle go in Whitworth and draft a Tackle, there's like a 60% change you drastically downgrade that position.

Multiply that by all the guys we let go like Zeitler, Nelson, Jones, Sanu, etc.

We've had more than our share of misses lately.

It is like we are relying on getting lucky at times, maddening.

[bengalhoel]

(12-07-2018, 03:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is like we are relying on getting lucky at times, maddening.

Paul Alexander rolled with Og and Fisher and paid for it.  I dont understand why Marvin Lewis gets a free pass by the ownership every year. It reminds me of a mother who no matter how bad their kids are always defends their rotten behavior and makes excuses.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-07-2018, 03:40 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Paul Alexander rolled with Og and Fisher and paid for it.  I dont understand why Marvin Lewis gets a free pass by the ownership every year. It reminds me of a mother who no matter how bad their kids are always defends their rotten behavior and makes excuses.

Yeah and the kid turns out to be a rotten bastid.

[grampahol]

Actually I'm just kidding about the first pick stuff, but it did kind of feel more exciting than say...picking 9th and trading down even if I do get the logic behind it ..

[McC]

(12-07-2018, 04:16 PM)grampahol Wrote: Actually I'm just kidding about the first pick stuff, but it did kind of feel more exciting than say...picking 9th and trading down even if I do get the logic behind it ..

Here's how it will go--if there are five can't mix prospects, we'll pick 6th.

On the bright side, there really is no position where we couldn't use help other than RB.