Guys Remember This Moment

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2018, 09:15 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote:  Research has proven that people who see the worse in things (pessimism) have a better ability dealing with stress,

That is not true around here.  The people with pessimistic outlooks are the ones that cry, excuse me, "vent" the loudest.  They are the ones that take the Bengal failure as a personal affront.  Instead of criticizing the Bengals football acumen they make personal attacks about appearance or character.  They are not satisfied claiming that the Bengals are a below average team.  Instead everything about the Bengals has to be the absolute worst in the league.  They can't just be disappointed.  Instead they have to be victims of embarrassment and derision from the rest of the league.  When the Bengals win a regular season game it is meaningless because "only playoffs count", but when the Bengals lose a regular season game it is a source of endless outrage.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 12:20 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Fred the only thing we have to hold onto is the hope. Hope that Mike Brown will give us some hope and shit can the crew that's running the show now. 

Without a complete new direction under a new staff this team is going nowhere again next season and Hue isn't the answer.

Absolutely.  I had some optimism that it wouldn't be the same ol, same ol when the offseason staff news was announced and did some good work in the draft and with the Glenn trade.  The team lacks discipline and focus (penalties anyone?), and that's been a calling card for years.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Instead everything about the Bengals has to be the absolute worst in the league.  

You mean like the defense this season?

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-07-2018, 12:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely.  I had some optimism that it wouldn't be the same ol, same ol when the offseason staff news was announced and did some good work in the draft and with the Glenn trade.  The team lacks discipline and focus (penalties anyone?), and that's been a calling card for years.

Right, there was just enough of a change to give you a little sliver of hope that things we're being done different......but. It's the same old BS over again.

We don't need to strip off the icing and redo the cake. We need to throw the whole S.O.B. out the window and start over with a new baker.

[Hoofhearted]

(12-07-2018, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not true around here.  The people with pessimistic outlooks are the ones that cry, excuse me, "vent" the loudest.  They are the ones that take the Bengal failure as a personal affront.  Instead of criticizing the Bengals football acumen they make personal attacks about appearance or character.  They are not satisfied claiming that the Bengals are a below average team.  Instead everything about the Bengals has to be the absolute worst in the league.  They can't just be disappointed.  Instead they have to be victims of embarrassment and derision from the rest of the league.  When the Bengals win a regular season game it is meaningless because "only playoffs count", but when the Bengals lose a regular season game it is a source of endless outrage.

Yes, totally understandable. Why do you feel it's up to you to change the way people look/view this team tho? People simple don't change. While there are exceptions, most people find change difficult for several reasons.  They don’t know themselves very well.  Few people have an accurate view of who they are and therefore don’t recognize the aspects of themselves that could use improvement. If tons of people come on here to ***** and moan, that's just who they are. If they don't want to change it, that's not your problem.

[thillan]

Just because we keep calling out for change in the organization doesn't mean we are pessimistic.. it's called wanting change. That's not being negative all the time.. the team is not good right now, why in the world would fans want to say nothing and be content about that?

I'd love having a new coach next season (minus Hue), regardless of outcome. Obviously we just want to see something different. Why not? What's keeping Marvin around for next season going to do for us?

[masonbengals fan]

More of the same.

[bengalhoel]

(12-06-2018, 06:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: Not so.  It's the culture here.  I am a die hard Seminoles fan.  I don't think that just because Willie Taggart went 5-7 in year one, missed a bowl for the first time since 1981, and had FSU's first losing record since 1976, that he won't at least right the ship within a year or two once he gets recruits that fit his system and play better than what Jimbo's recruits have done over the last couple of seasons.

Here, we have Mike Brown, and real possibility that Merv will be back.  If not, it could be Hue.  That's not much to hang one's hat on.  You can go back and look at the preseason predictions, and posts about the moves made, and see that I was optimistic about them, and that 9-7 would be a damn fine improvement for this team.  Instead, more of the same under Merv.  That's where the hope dies.

That record flew out the window once Eifert got hurt. Dalton has to have a top tier TE opening up the middle or he makes way too many mistakes. 2015 , when Eifert played most of the games, he was a top 10 QB. He just looks lost without him.

[Lucidus]

(12-07-2018, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not true around here.  The people with pessimistic outlooks are the ones that cry, excuse me, "vent" the loudest.  They are the ones that take the Bengal failure as a personal affront.  Instead of criticizing the Bengals football acumen they make personal attacks about appearance or character.  They are not satisfied claiming that the Bengals are a below average team.  Instead everything about the Bengals has to be the absolute worst in the league.  They can't just be disappointed.  Instead they have to be victims of embarrassment and derision from the rest of the league.  When the Bengals win a regular season game it is meaningless because "only playoffs count", but when the Bengals lose a regular season game it is a source of endless outrage.

In reading through various threads each day during the time I have available, I have noticed some trends in your style of argument that seem to undermine the points and assertions that you seem to be putting forth. I've noticed that you often declare yourself and your arguments to be among the very few --- in your opinion -- that are reasonable and logical. However, I have found many of your arguments to be rather faulty in that they are often very fallacious, contradictory and usually straw man reliant.

Let's take, for example, the arguments you've offered in this thread alone. You seem to be proclaiming that people should have hope -- as it provides a higher grade of life -- and that being pessimistic is somehow detrimental to a person's happiness. 

The obvious conflict in this assertion is that optimism and pessimism are in no way contradictory outlooks when it pertains to the overall context of a particular subject. In this case, the subject is the Bengals. One can easily be very optimistic that the Bengals will win a playoff game at some point in the near future. However, at the same time, they can retain a certain amount of pessimism about the reality of that happening based on previous experience. Therefore, a person could have hope, though it is reasonably tempered by certain realities.

You seem to also conclude that a person who is cynical, critical or persistent in voicing their dissatisfaction must in turn live a sad, depressed existence and that they are using the failures of the Bengals as an excuse to claim for themselves a personal grievance and victimization. However, this is an inference that excludes other reasonable options such as: 

Extended periods of disappointment which leads to lowered expectations.
Cynicism that is derived from continued results that reaffirm negative conclusions.
Having one's opinions and judgement tainted by emotional, financial and time allocations that they no longer find rewarding.
The very nature of what it means to be a Bengals fan; where a certain level of disappointment and irony can reasonably be assumed in advance.

There are many factors that can lead to one becoming hyperbolic and over-the-top in their opinions and they don't all conclude that the person is necessarily looking to play victim or leading a miserable existence. Sometimes, the person may just be incredibly jaded or discontent to the point where hope, as it were, seems to fly in the face of reality to the point where pessimism seems a more rational outlook.

Another area where I've noticed you often -- very often in fact -- defeat your own proclamation of credibility is the use of straw man arguments. Even if the points you are making contain elements that are are valid and reasoned, your continued exercise of asking people to defend positions that they didn't necessarily take -- and that you purposefully created for them -- they are lost in the context of your disingenuous tactics. 

I hope you don't take these critiques personally. They are merely meant as constructive criticism of your argument style and not of you as a person. I think you make some very sound and interesting points but they often get lost in the problematic nature of your composition.

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 04:15 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Let's take, for example, the arguments you've offered in this thread alone. You seem to be proclaiming that people should have hope -- as it provides a higher grade of life -- and that being pessimistic is somehow detrimental to a person's happiness. 

I am not creating any straw man or making anything up.  To prove this I will give a direct quote from the original post.

(12-06-2018, 05:38 PM)GodFather Wrote: Remember this moment, because believe me the mind is wonderful at forgetting pain,

You're feeling disgusted now and see how this team turned out, exactly like all the previous with Lewis/Brown...disappointing.

Here's the thing, as bad as your feeling a lot of you will think the Bengals will be a top tier playoff winning Super Bowl bound team come next September. You will say no now, but you will see the changes this offseason and convince yourself it will be different this year....IT WILL BE DIFFERENT.

So tell me how feeling "pain", "disgust", and "bad" are NOT "detrimental to a person's happiness".

I have been a Bengal fan since 1973.  I have experienced all of the disappointment that anyone else here has, yet for some reason I don't feel that I have to force myself to spend my life feeling "bad" with "pain" and "disgust"  BEFORE anything happens to make me feel that way.

Then they try to claim that if they feel miserable the entire year they will somehow feel better than me when things do go bad.  Yet when things do go bad they don't act like they feel any better at all.  In fact they seem to be in more pain than me.  So that argument just is not valid.  Feeling bad does not make anyone feel better if something bad does eventually happen.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 03:51 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: That record flew out the window once Eifert got hurt. Dalton has to have a top tier TE opening up the middle or he makes way too many mistakes. 2015 , when Eifert played most of the games, he was a top 10 QB. He just looks lost without him.

To that I say.....that is the strength of the QB, up the middle of the field and even deep up the middle of the field.  Can no one else on the team run a seam or post route?

[Lucidus]

(12-07-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not creating any straw man or making anything up.  To prove this I will give a direct quote from the original post.


So tell me how feeling "pain", "disgust", and "bad" are NOT "detrimental to a person's happiness".

I have been a Bengal fan since 1973.  I have experienced all of the disappointment that anyone else here has, yet for some reason I don't feel that I have to force myself to spend my life feeling "bad" with "pain" and "disgust"  BEFORE anything happens to make me feel that way.

Then they try to claim that if they feel miserable the entire year they will somehow feel better than me when things do go bad.  Yet when things do go bad they don't act like they feel any better at all.  In fact they seem to be in more pain than me.  So that argument just is not valid.  Feeling bad does not make anyone feel better if something bad does eventually happen.

I can't help to wonder why you only chose to address one small part of my post, but that is your option of course.

As to your response; why do you assume that feeling "pain, disgust and bad" are necessarily detrimental to a persons's life? Those are all very natural states of mind that we all feel; some to greater degrees than others. I, for example, can feel disgusted by what I've seen from the Bengals this year, yet that state of mind concerning one particular subject has no adverse affect on my overall existence.

You assert that others who have experienced the same disappointments as yourself are living their lives consumed by these states of mind prior to negative things happening. Again sir, your reasoning is a bit obscured it would seem. A person can indeed experience states of mind in anticipation of an actual outcome. States like worried and anxious come immediately to mind. For example, one might have very high hopes for the upcoming season, yet at the same time, be very weary and purposefully try to temper that hope based on past experience and outcomes as to not suffer too great of a disappointment. It does not then follow, that the same applies to their life in general.

As to your last paragraph, you would need to show me examples of people relaying those exact sentiments -- and not simply your interpretation -- before I could accurately address it; as again your argument seems to be wrapped in a very hyperbolic framework.

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 05:12 PM)Lucidus Wrote: As to your response; why do you assume that feeling "pain, disgust and bad" are necessarily detrimental to a persons's life?

Uh, speaking of "strawmen" I never said that.

I said feeling "pain, disgust, and bad" are detrimental to a persons "happiness".

So are you seriously going to say that feeling "pain, disgust, and bad" make normal people happy?

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 05:12 PM)Lucidus Wrote:  For example, one might have very high hopes for the upcoming season, yet at the same time, be very weary and purposefully try to temper that hope based on past experience and outcomes as to not suffer too great of a disappointment.

If this was the case then in the OP Godfather would saying that he does not feel bad because he expected all of this, but in fact he states the opposite.  He is in "pain".  He feels "bad" and "disgusted".  His preserving the pain and disgust all year long has not helped him dal with the disappointment at all.  All it has done is given him a full year of pain and disappointment instead of a period of Hope before the outcome is known for sure.

I am sure that in 2017 there were quite a few Eagles fans who sent the entire offseason clinging to the pain, nurturing the disgust, and preserving the bad feeling of a losing season.  The Eagles had never won a Super bowl.  It had been a decade since they had won a playoff game and they were coming off of back-to-back losing seasons.  So I am sure there was a large group of fans who were convinced it was "impossible" for them to win a Championship.   But when the Eagles won the Super Bowl they were no more happier than the people ho had positive thoughts about the upcoming season.  All they ended up doing was making themselves feel miserable for months over something that never happened.

[Lucidus]

(12-07-2018, 05:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, speaking of "strawmen" I never said that.

I said feeling "pain, disgust, and bad" are detrimental to a persons "happiness".

So are you seriously going to say that feeling "pain, disgust, and bad" make normal people happy?

Mistaking one word in a paragraph -- life for happiness in this instance -- does not qualify as a straw man. I'm sure you can clearly differentiate between the two sir, so why assert that I committed that fallacy? 

Do you consider yourself happy sir? Do you also experience "pain, disgust and bad" in your life?

Happiness is a state of mind, just as the other states mentioned. They are not contradictory as it pertains to a person's overall state. One can be perfectly content with one aspect of their life and dissatisfied with another. One can also be completely disgusted by one aspect of their life but happy in general. 

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 05:40 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Do you consider yourself happy sir? Do you also experience "pain, disgust and bad" in your life?

Yes, I am a happy person, but I am not happy when I feel "pain, disgust, and bad".  And if you asked most normal people I think they would agree with me.  In fact many would consider "feeling bad" to be the opposite of "feeling happy".  That is why I don't cling to pain or force myself to nurture a feeling of disgust.

I realize some people love to suffer and cherish being a victim.  They are the ones who are happy when they are feeling bad or in pain.  But I think those people are pathetic.

[Lucidus]

(12-07-2018, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If this was the case then in the OP Godfather would saying that he does not feel bad because he expected all of this, but in fact he states the opposite.  He is in "pain".  He feels "bad" and "disgusted".  His preserving the pain and disgust all year long has not helped him dal with the disappointment at all.  All it has done is given him a full year of pain and disappointment instead of a period of Hope before the outcome is known for sure.

I am sure that in 2017 there were quite a few Eagles fans who sent the entire offseason clinging to the pain, nurturing the disgust, and preserving the bad feeling of a losing season.  The Eagles had never won a Super bowl.  It had been a decade since they had won a playoff game and they were coming off of back-to-back losing seasons.  So I am sure there was a large group of fans who were convinced it was "impossible" for them to win a Championship.   But when the Eagles won the Super Bowl they were no more happier than the people ho had positive thoughts about the upcoming season.  All they ended up doing was making themselves feel miserable for months over something that never happened.

I wan't to respond, but at the same time, I don't want offend. 

As delicately as I can put it; this is the reason for my initial post to you sir. Your argument here assumes many things which require you to presuppose the intent, rationale and experience of others. Above and beyond that, you place upon those whom you're speaking of broadly, your own specific notions of what their positions are. This is simply a ineffective way of making your case sir. Avoiding these tactics could help strengthen your arguments in the future.

[bengalhoel]

(12-07-2018, 04:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: To that I say.....that is the strength of the QB, up the middle of the field and even deep up the middle of the field.  Can no one else on the team run a seam or post route?

Yeah exactly. Eifert seems to be the only person they trust to go down the middle. It is horrific watching Dalton throw those sideline passes which always seem to go out of bounds.  Even A.J. never goes deep over the middle anymore. 

Is it something the defense does when Eifert isnt in there?  Why the hell cant Ross run a slant? Lazor blamed Alexander and Zampese for being Vanilla yet our offense looks awfully familiar doesnt it?  

[McC]

(12-07-2018, 06:02 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Yeah exactly. Eifert seems to be the only person they trust to go down the middle. It is horrific watching Dalton throw those sideline passes which always seem to go out of bounds.  Even A.J. never goes deep over the middle anymore. 

Is it something the defense does when Eifert isnt in there?  Why the hell cant Ross run a slant? Lazor blamed Alexander and Zampese for being Vanilla yet our offense looks awfully familiar doesnt it?  

Trips right, trips left, fake screen left, screen right, fake screen right, screen left, middle screen,rub routes, all in the catalog known as Stuff Other Teams Do.

[Lucidus]

(12-07-2018, 05:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, I am a happy person, but I am not happy when I feel "pain, disgust, and bad".  And if you asked most normal people I think they would agree with me.  In fact many would consider "feeling bad" to be the opposite of "feeling happy".  That is why I don't cling to pain or force myself to nurture a feeling of disgust.

I realize some people love to suffer and cherish being a victim.  They are the ones who are happy when they are feeling bad or in pain.  But I think those people are pathetic.

Of course one doesn't feel happiness in the exact moment of feeling unhappiness. However, life is not live in any single moment, but rather an accumulation of them. You can feel angry and disgusted while watching the Bengals on a Sunday afternoon, yet perfectly happy the rest of the week. Again sir, these are not contradictory propositions. 

As to your second paragraph, I find it very distasteful to refer to people as pathetic because they may experience things differently than you. In fact sir, I think I'll end our discussion here as it seems you have not taken my advice at all and are continuing with the same fallacious arguments in which the conclusions are flawed because of poorly formed premises.