Burfict's PFF Grade

[THE PISTONS]

(12-07-2018, 11:30 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: His effort is piss poor. He quits on a LOT of plays. I get he's trying to change, but he simply doesn't play with the effort he used to.

And some of that is on the coaches for not helping players adjust. I saw stories on other NFL teams how they'd practice tackling fundamentals within the rules.

The Bengals seem to try going high with arm tackles.

[jj22]

(12-07-2018, 11:28 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: And still came out like gangbusters with a forced hand. If anything, that means they did even better. 

Traded for Cordy Glenn while getting Price.

Trading is the one area I think they are pretty good at.

Trading for players they are much better at then trading vets and stockpiling picks. We seen that with them cutting players like Iloka, Peko, (in recent memory) etc without getting anything for them.

Maybe they couldn't, but we've seen the Browns for example unload players and get something from them. We couldn't even get anything for McCarron but a 7th round comp pic, because we waited well past his trade peak to shop him, and if it wasn't for Hue and the Browns, they wouldn't have even tried.

[Hoofhearted]

(12-07-2018, 11:59 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And some of that is on the coaches for not helping players adjust. I saw stories on other NFL teams how they'd practice tackling fundamentals within the rules.

The Bengals seem to try going high with arm tackles.

Not argument from me on this. It's rather clear. But that really excuse poor effort?

[Hoofhearted]

(12-07-2018, 12:02 PM)jj22 Wrote: Trading for players they are much better at then trading vets and stockpiling picks. We seen that with them cutting players like Iloka, Peko, (in recent memory) etc without getting anything for them.

Maybe they couldn't, but we've seen the Browns for example unload players and get something from them. We couldn't even get anything for McCarron but a 7th round comp pic, because we waited well past his trade peak to shop him, and if it wasn't for Hue and the Browns, they wouldn't have even tried.

George has 16 tackles, 1 FF and 0 Int. Maybe he just wasn't that good? Ditto for Peko. I'm thinking it's the "maybe they couldn't" route.

AJ they did drop the ball on tho. Or the Browns, but that was a deal that probably should of happened. 

[jj22]

Have you seen the players the Browns traded to stockpile picks? Many of which we'd consider "not very good" from 0-16 and a 1-15 teams. Yet they made it happen over and over and over again. And you see the results.

I mean they got something for players like Shon Coleman, Jamal Taylor, Corey Coleman, Danny Shelton, and the often suspended Gordon. Players that haven't done nearly what players like Iloka or Peko or Burfict or even MJ has done. I have no doubt they could have gotten something for the players we just cut.

Hell they even traded and got something for QB's Kevin Hogan, Cody Kessler, and Deshone Kizer.

Just a quick look at their trade transactions the last two years may shock you. And we considered their front office inept.

We'll likely get nothing from any of our aging vets or replaceable backups.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-07-2018, 12:23 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: George has 16 tackles, 1 FF and 0 Int. Maybe he just wasn't that good? Ditto for Peko. I'm thinking it's the "maybe they couldn't" route.

AJ they did drop the ball on tho. Or the Browns, but that was a deal that probably should of happened. 

Yeah...Iloka is a backup/special teamer with the Vikings.

I think he's just the wrong kind of safety for today's game.

[J24]

If Vontaz could pass a physical I think you could get something decent back for him. 3-5th Rd pick. There probably are a couple of teams that think they could turn him around. Like the pats or the Eagles.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-07-2018, 05:47 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: If Vontaz could pass a physical I think you could get something decent back for him. 3-5th Rd pick. There probably are a couple of teams that think they could turn him around. Like the pats or the Eagles.

-He's 1 questionable hit away from a year long or permanent ban.
-He's had knee issues.
-He's had many concussion issues that costs him time.
-He just had a PED suspension and another will be more severe.
-And his play has fallen off of a cliff this year.
-He's under contract for like $10 million a year and not really a pass rusher.

I see no way a team gives up a 3rd Round pick for him.

NFL trades are generally for pennies on the dollar.

[jj22]

(12-07-2018, 05:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: -He's 1 questionable hit away from a year long or permanent ban.
-He's had knee issues.
-He's had many concussion issues that costs him time.
-He just had a PED suspension and another will be more severe.
-And his play has fallen off of a cliff this year.
-He's under contract for like $10 million a year and not really a pass rusher.

I see no way a team gives up a 3rd Round pick for him.

NFL trades are generally for pennies on the dollar.

That's why a foolish club like Oakland, flushed with money, flushed with picks, with an old school coach with a love for aging vets is a perfect fit.

Especially if Guenther sticks around. 3rd round might be worth it for them.

MB values 4th and 5th round picks and would likely settle for something in that range.

Which would be throw away picks for Oakland at that point. I'm on the Burfict to Oakland train. It's probably the only hope for a trade.

and never sleep on NE. MB is "fond" of doing business with them.

 

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: Have you seen the players the Browns traded to stockpile picks? Many of which we'd consider "not very good" from 0-16 and a 1-15 teams. Yet they made it happen over and over and over again. And you see the results.

I mean they got something for players like Shon Coleman, Jamal Taylor, Corey Coleman, Danny Shelton, and the often suspended Gordon. Players that haven't done nearly what players like Iloka or Peko or Burfict or even MJ has done. I have no doubt they could have gotten something for the players we just cut.

Hell they even traded and got something for QB's Kevin Hogan, Cody Kessler, and Deshone Kizer.

Just a quick look at their trade transactions the last two years may shock you. And we considered their front office inept.

We'll likely get nothing from any of our aging vets or replaceable backups.

Actually I don't see any results from any of the late round picks they got for those players.  I can't believe you are slobbering over the Browns front office for getting 7th round picks for first round (Corey Coleman) and 3rd round (Shon Coleman) picks.  Danny Shelton was the #12 pick in the first round by the Browns and when they traded him they just got to move up from the fifth round to the third.

You think that is how good front offices work?  Draft players really high in the draft and then trade them for scraps.

[jj22]

Something is better than nothing in my book Fred.

They'd find a way to get something by trading a Ced and Fisher. High draft picks we'll just cut. Even if it is scraps. It's draft picks. Gold in MB eye's. If they are going to build through the draft, they need to do a better job of stockpiling picks.

[snowy]

I've said it before, and I might as well say it again. I think something's very wrong with Burfict, and I think it's a physical thing. I don't care about intensity, high motor, in or out of shape...nobody should gasp for breath that much.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-08-2018, 01:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I don't see any results from any of the late round picks they got for those players.  I can't believe you are slobbering over the Browns front office for getting 7th round picks for first round (Corey Coleman) and 3rd round (Shon Coleman) picks.  Danny Shelton was the #12 pick in the first round by the Browns and when they traded him they just got to move up from the fifth round to the third.

You think that is how good front offices work?  Draft players really high in the draft and then trade them for scraps.

Yeah in some cases they traded those guys 2-3 years after they were drafted too. It was insane.

Draft a 1st Round pick and trade him for a 7th Round pick.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-08-2018, 01:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: Something is better than nothing in my book Fred.

They'd find a way to get something by trading a Ced and Fisher. High draft picks we'll just cut. Even if it is scraps. It's draft picks. Gold in MB eye's. If they are going to build through the draft, they need to do a better job of stockpiling picks.

You think another NFL Team would trade a draft pick for Ced or Fisher?

[J24]

(12-07-2018, 05:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: -He's 1 questionable hit away from a year long or permanent ban.
-He's had knee issues.
-He's had many concussion issues that costs him time.
-He just had a PED suspension and another will be more severe.
-And his play has fallen off of a cliff this year.
-He's under contract for like $10 million a year and not really a pass rusher.

I see no way a team gives up a 3rd Round pick for him.

NFL trades are generally for pennies on the dollar.

He is also a top player when healthy and motivated. If you're getting 2016 or hell 2017 Vontaz you're getting one hell of a player. Plus the contract is easy to get out of in 2020 if he fails with only 900,000 in dead money. 

[N_B]

(12-08-2018, 09:39 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: He is also a top player when healthy and motivated. If you're getting 2016 or hell 2017 Vontaz you're getting one hell of a player. Plus the contract is easy to get out of in 2020 if he fails with only 900,000 in dead money. 

He’s a below average football player now with a negative rep. I don’t think anyone would give up a draft pick for him, save a team like the raiders

[J24]

(12-08-2018, 10:07 PM)N_B Wrote: He’s a below average football player now with a negative rep.  I don’t think anyone would give up a draft pick for him, save a team like the raiders

Is he or is he having a bad year? Also If a team thinks they can get a motivated in shape Vontaz there going to risk a draft pick. Not a first or second certainly but maybe a late 3rd thru 5th. Honestly what would be willing to give up to get a motivated in shape Vontaz?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-08-2018, 09:39 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: He is also a top player when healthy and motivated. If you're getting 2016 or hell 2017 Vontaz you're getting one hell of a player. Plus the contract is easy to get out of in 2020 if he fails with only 900,000 in dead money. 

So teams only have to worry about:

1) His health - BOTH knee and concussion
2) If he's motivated
3) If he's suspended - BOTH PEDs and Personal Fouls
4) His actual play as he's been pretty bad this year.

That's a LOT to worry about.

[Circleville Guy]

Vontaz is only 28, it feels like he’s 34 or so. I tried to look up how many concussions he’s had with the Bengals but I couldn’t find anything, it seems like double figures. I’m guessing that he’s had some before the Pros too. It looks like the NFL would have some kind of physical evaluation that needed to be passed after so many concussions, it just seems so dangerous short and long term.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-08-2018, 10:14 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Is he or is he having a bad year? Also If a team thinks they can get a motivated in shape Vontaz there going to risk a draft pick. Not a first or second certainly but maybe a late 3rd thru 5th. Honestly what would be willing to give up to get a motivated in shape Vontaz?

That's the thing in sports...to determine if it's just a down year or if it's the start of a player falling off of a cliff in performance.

It's impossible to determine.

He's had microfracture surgery and a bunch of concussions. Those point to his play declining.

He's also being targeted by the NFL and trying to tackle different.

What I can't explain is why he just tackles a TE when the TE runs a route.