(12-14-2018, 02:45 PM)Fullrock Wrote: It's actually 20th, but you simply cannot compare QB rating between different eras with the evolvement of the passing game and rule changes that have benefited the offense and made passing the football easier over the years. For example, Dalton ranks ahead of Dan Marino in career QB rating. Ha, right? Nearly all of the QB's ahead of Dalton are still playing. Those that aren't still playing at least played recently with the exception of Steve Young.
Dalton is 20th in NFL history in QB rating. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. How many QBs have there been in NFL history?
Fine, we're in a different league. Let's take out all those who are no longer playing. That moves Dalton to 12th on the list. Again, how is that bad? BTW, of those 12 only 3 came into the league AFTER Dalton did.
(12-14-2018, 02:45 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Dalton's career rating is 88.8. The average rating in 2017 was 89.8.
Only 14 QBs in NFL history have a career rating higher than 89.8 (only 8 of which are still active). So are most QBs in the NFL crap or is it just Dalton somehow?
(12-14-2018, 04:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dalton is 20th in NFL history in QB rating. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. How many QBs have there been in NFL history?
Fine, we're in a different league. Let's take out all those who are no longer playing. That moves Dalton to 12th on the list. Again, how is that bad? BTW, of those 12 only 3 came into the league AFTER Dalton did.
Only 14 QBs in NFL history have a career rating higher than 89.8 (only 8 of which are still active). So are most QBs in the NFL crap or is it just Dalton somehow?
It's funny, because any time you use any kind of historical grade for him, "it's a different era", "times have changed". Which there is merit to that.....but the humorous part is I see the same people saying that drooling all over Dwayne Haskins breaking Drew Bress' records that are nearly 20 years old.
The hypocrisy is what gets me.
Now, the OP does make valid points, and is not bashing Dalton, that's why this has been a entertaining discussion. I'm not sure if you've seen some of the ridiculousness posted over the years or not Fullrock, but some of it has been downright absurd. Your thread and your counterpoints have not been that, so I applaud your position, even though I don't totally agree with it.
I have issue gauging any of our players that aren't All-Pro, HOF to near HOF talents due to our coaching. I mean hell, Piano Paul was here 25 years! A QUARTER OF A CENTURY! That's just one example of staleness, lack of accountability from management, and predictability.
I don't know if you ever watched Driskel in college or not, but he's still making a lot of the same mistakes that led to his benching at U of F. I'm game with trying to get good trade value out of Andy, but I wouldn't roll with Jeff....even though I like him as a backup. Much more than McCarron because he isn't limited like AJ was. If I traded Andy, I'd try to get Bridgewater or someone comparable as a stop gap and draft a QB in a year or two. I'm not very high on this crop. If I did draft a QB this year, I wouldn't sit him behind Driskel, I'd roll with Andy another year. That's just my opinion.
(12-14-2018, 04:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dalton is 20th in NFL history in QB rating. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. How many QBs have there been in NFL history?
Fine, we're in a different league. Let's take out all those who are no longer playing. That moves Dalton to 12th on the list. Again, how is that bad? BTW, of those 12 only 3 came into the league AFTER Dalton did.
Only 14 QBs in NFL history have a career rating higher than 89.8 (only 8 of which are still active). So are most QBs in the NFL crap or is it just Dalton somehow?
AGAIN, you cannot compare passer ratings between different eras. The league average has increased steadily year after year after year because of the evolvement of the passing game and rules to make it easier for offenses.
That list I quoted Dalton as being 20th on doesn't include younger players because they don't have enough attempts to qualify. So there are way more than 11 active QB's who have better career passing ratings than Dalton. Current starters who have MUCH better passer ratings than Dalton but don't have enough attempts to qualify for that list include Patrick Mahomes, Carson Wentz, Baker Mayfield, Deshaun Watson, Dak Prescott, and Jared Goff.
So add 6 more in front of him and he's 18th on the list of current starters. And people really think that's good enough?!
(12-14-2018, 04:12 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's funny, because any time you use any kind of historical grade for him, "it's a different era", "times have changed". Which there is merit to that.....but the humorous part is I see the same people saying that drooling all over Dwayne Haskins breaking Drew Bress' records that are nearly 20 years old.
The hypocrisy is what gets me.
Now, the OP does make valid points, and is not bashing Dalton, that's why this has been a entertaining discussion. I'm not sure if you've seen some of the ridiculousness posted over the years or not Fullrock, but some of it has been downright absurd. Your thread and your counterpoints have not been that, so I applaud your position, even though I don't totally agree with it.
I have issue gauging any of our players that aren't All-Pro, HOF to near HOF talents due to our coaching. I mean hell, Piano Paul was here 25 years! A QUARTER OF A CENTURY! That's just one example of staleness, lack of accountability from management, and predictability.
I don't know if you ever watched Driskel in college or not, but he's still making a lot of the same mistakes that led to his benching at U of F. I'm game with trying to get good trade value out of Andy, but I wouldn't roll with Jeff....even though I like him as a backup. Much more than McCarron because he isn't limited like AJ was. If I traded Andy, I'd try to get Bridgewater or someone comparable as a stop gap and draft a QB in a year or two. I'm not very high on this crop. If I did draft a QB this year, I wouldn't sit him behind Driskel, I'd roll with Andy another year. That's just my opinion.
I have seen some of the ridiculousness over the years. I've been a Dalton supporter and never once thought AJ should have been the starter. But after 8 years, Dalton just is what he is. He's good enough to win some games and bad enough to lose some games. At the end of the day you get average. That's what he is, and if he is surrounded by enough talent, he can put up some good numbers. The 2015 team is the prime example of that. AJ, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Eifert, a good offensive line, and a good defense led to him putting up the best numbers of his career. The fact remains that he is simply not good enough to consistently produce those kinds of career numbers (or anything close to it). He's had just one other season besides 2015 with a passer rating over 90. It is time to move on.
I have no idea if Driskel can develop into a starting caliber QB, but this team is in rebuilding mode, and you might as well go the full rebuilding route and see what the kid can do. He has shown enough in 2.5 games that combined with his measurables warrants a chance unless he just looks absolutely horrible the last 3 games of the season. He's accounted for 5 TD's and thrown 1 pick in 2.5 games and should have had another rushing TD last Sunday. That's not a bad start for the kid.
(12-13-2018, 10:45 PM)Destro Wrote: I've seen all the playoff loses. It was a team effort in failures, not just the QBs. Even when there was a chance, they melted down together( see: Hill, Burfict, Pacman )
Dalton's stats don't help his cause though: 57 passer rating over 4 games, 1 TD pass, 6 INTs, 4 FUMs.
(12-14-2018, 04:38 PM)Fullrock Wrote: I have seen some of the ridiculousness over the years. I've been a Dalton supporter and never once thought AJ should have been the starter. But after 8 years, Dalton just is what he is. He's good enough to win some games and bad enough to lose some games. At the end of the day you get average. That's what he is, and if he is surrounded by enough talent, he can put up some good numbers. The 2015 team is the prime example of that. AJ, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Eifert, a good offensive line, and a good defense led to him putting up the best numbers of his career. The fact remains that he is simply not good enough to consistently produce those kinds of career numbers (or anything close to it). He's had just one other season besides 2015 with a passer rating over 90. It is time to move on.
I have no idea if Driskel can develop into a starting caliber QB, but this team is in rebuilding mode, and you might as well go the full rebuilding route and see what the kid can do. He has shown enough in 2.5 games that combined with his measurables warrants a chance unless he just looks absolutely horrible the last 3 games of the season. He's accounted for 5 TD's and thrown 1 pick in 2.5 games and should have had another rushing TD last Sunday. That's not a bad start for the kid.
See, we're not far off in our evaluation of 14. I see him as around a top 15 QB, which, obviously, isn't much more than average. He can play top 10 level with protection. I think that is the biggest issue due to him having a decent 2014 with a lot of injuries at the skill positions, but good to solid blocking. For the last few seasons, the protection has been bad, and we just don't have the time to let people get open down the field. We're seeing the same problem for Jeff. Although, he is a bigger threat to run of course.
As I said, you have some valid points. If they're going rebuild, your scenario makes sense. If they still try to win next season, I'd roll with Andy or a FA, with an eye for the future. Either way, I think I would pursue talent at OL and LB. With a regime change, you may see the team turn around. For all the shit I give Merv, the defense IS steadily improving from week to week, with lesser talent than it started with. In other words, with a couple of successful key acquisitions, I think the team is better than it looks with better coaching. If you look at Dalton's best years, he had good protection, and this is key, good OCs.....yes, even Hue.
(12-14-2018, 04:45 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Dalton's stats don't help his cause though: 57 passer rating over 4 games, 1 TD pass, 6 INTs, 4 FUMs.
You are right there, for sure. It's been ugly. The thing that gets me, as I posted earlier, we've seen QBs put up even more dreadful performances than that, and win. Every once in a while, you need to elevate around your QB when he's struggling. We've failed to do that, except for a handful of individual performances. Dalton's biggest issue is inconsistency. At times, he looks razor sharp, and has a decent ceiling, then there are the headscratcher games. I will say the floor has risen quite a bit since the 2.0 game against Cleveland.
(12-14-2018, 04:26 PM)Fullrock Wrote: So add 6 more in front of him and he's 18th on the list of current starters. And people really think that's good enough?!
What does a QBs career rating have to be in order to win a championship?
(12-14-2018, 05:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What does a QBs career rating have to be in order to win a championship?
Better than Dalton's.
And don't come at me with Trent Dilfer or anyone else from 15+ years ago. Different time, different rules, and the 2000 Baltimore football team was one of the best defensive teams to ever take the field. That defense won the championship. With the change in rules to benefit the offense and player safety, you won't ever see that type of dominant defense again.
Without a doubt i think we've seen instances of Dalton becoming "lized" over the past 2 seasons with the accumulation being the toss out of bounds on 4th down last year. He seemed to bounce back the last 2 games when he started getting better protection.
And then this year he played 2015 levels until the Stealers game but after that seemed to sink back into a funk due to shitty protection again and most likely the misuse of Mixon amongst other uninspired play calling that didn't account for the lines short comings. Bill didn't do him any favors and a lot of time receivers just weren't getting open in the 2 seconds they had to do so. This is where Gio and Mixon possibly could have opened things up and both should have been used at the same time.
Just so many possibilities with both in the backfield. Is it going to be a hand off to Gio or Mixon - Is it going to be a screen to Mixon or Gio. Really keeps defenses guessing i would imagine and then it gives more time for the receivers.
Like Boomer, Pickens, Corey, Chad, Carson before him he may be officially "lized"
(12-14-2018, 04:26 PM)Fullrock Wrote: AGAIN, you cannot compare passer ratings between different eras. The league average has increased steadily year after year after year because of the evolvement of the passing game and rules to make it easier for offenses.
That list I quoted Dalton as being 20th on doesn't include younger players because they don't have enough attempts to qualify. So there are way more than 11 active QB's who have better career passing ratings than Dalton. Current starters who have MUCH better passer ratings than Dalton but don't have enough attempts to qualify for that list include Patrick Mahomes, Carson Wentz, Baker Mayfield, Deshaun Watson, Dak Prescott, and Jared Goff.
So add 6 more in front of him and he's 18th on the list of current starters. And people really think that's good enough?!
WHAT!?!?!?!?!
Andy has a higher career passer rating than Dan Marino. Are you trying to suggest Andy is not better than Dan?
(12-14-2018, 05:49 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Better than Dalton's.
And don't come at me with Trent Dilfer or anyone else from 15+ years ago. Different time, different rules, and the 2000 Baltimore football team was one of the best defensive teams to ever take the field. That defense won the championship. With the change in rules to benefit the offense and player safety, you won't ever see that type of dominant defense again.
(12-15-2018, 01:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Is 11 months too far in the past?
Or how about when Eli won his two rings?
You are clueless.
When folks have to grasp at outliers to try to prove a point, that's when you realize they don't have one. Much less a cognitive advantage so great as to call others clueless.
By and large the teams with top tier QBs are the ones hoisting the Lombardi.
(12-15-2018, 01:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When folks have to grasp at outliers to try to prove a point, that's when you realize they don't have one. Much less a cognitive advantage so great as to call others clueless.
By and large the teams with top tier QBs are the ones hoisting the Lombardi.
Half of the last 6 Super Bowl Champions (Flacco, Foles, Eli Manning) means they are not "outliers". And a fourth (Peyton manning) won a ring in a season where his passer rating was in the 60's.
But typical of a Andy hater to support a person who says something that is 100% wrong as long as it is said to disparage Dalton.
"Yeah, he is lying, but I like the way he says it". Where have we heard that before?
(12-15-2018, 01:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Half of the last 6 Super Bowl Champions (Flacco, Foles, Eli Manning) means they are not "outliers". And a fourth (Peyton manning) won a ring in a season where his passer rating was in the 60's.
But typical of a Andy hater to support a person who says something that is 100% wrong as long as it is said to disparage Dalton.
"Yeah, he is lying, but I like the way he says it". Where have we heard that before?
You also know hen someone doesn't have a point when they start attacking the poster(s) rather than the point, phrase things to try to make their point seem more valid, and try to assert Peyton was not an elite QB.
Here are the past 15 Super Bowl winning QBs: 2004- Peyton Manning
2005- Tom Brady 2006- Ben Rothlesberger 2007- Peyton Manning 2008- Eli Manning 2009- Ben Rothlesberger 2010- Drew Brees 2011- Aaron Rodgers 2012- Eli Manning 2013- Joe Flacco 2014- Russell Wilson 2015- Tom Brady 2016- Peyton Manning 2017- Tom Brady 2018- Nick Foles
So folks can decide for themselves what is the norm and what is the exception.
At the very least Driskel should have the opportunity to fight for the starting job against Dalton. As every spot on the team should be up for grabs every year.
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