I think I know what might be really hindering this franchise. ( I might be wrong)

[Whatever]

(12-29-2018, 07:59 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That is why fans feel the way they do.  That is why you'd be an idiot to not understand why.

It's not their fault that they're jaded.  It's the ownership.

They own that dubious reputation 100%.

This is ridiculous to place blame on culture of the fans.

Boo hoo a player wants to think our fans are terrible.

Let them play for a winner that misses the playoffs one year and they want their coach and themselves strung up in public.

Put together a winner that doesn't embarrass themselves in prime-time and playoff games that are epic failures.

That would turn this fan base and perhaps put fans back in the stadium.

It's just a wild and crazy thought.

Well, certainly, it would be a lot easier to be supportive if the team if they had more playoff success.  I certainly understand why the fanbase is negative.  But the fanbase is negative and toxic because they choose to be negative and toxic.  Other teams have been worse and still turn out to support their team better than we do.

Are the fans justified in having a toxic attitude?  Yes.  But it's still our choice to be toxic.  The FO, coaches, players, and fans are all a part of that culture.  

You know what, yeah, screw that star player that doesn't want to come here and play in a half full stadium for fans who won't buy his jersey.  He just doesn't get it.  He doesn't know what we've been through.  We don't need guys like that.  We're gonna build through the draft and I'm sure there's some 2nd and 3rd tier FA's that will just be glad to have a paycheck that will come help put this team over the top.  

That's the thing with players that can put a team over the top.  They tend to have options.  That means they have to actually want to come play for you as opposed to someone else.  Our actions as a fanbase are counterproductive to what we would like to see happen.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2018, 11:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Well, certainly, it would be a lot easier to be supportive if the team if they had more playoff success.  I certainly understand why the fanbase is negative.  But the fanbase is negative and toxic because they choose to be negative and toxic.  Other teams have been worse and still turn out to support their team better than we do.

Are the fans justified in having a toxic attitude?  Yes.  But it's still our choice to be toxic.  The FO, coaches, players, and fans are all a part of that culture.  

You know what, yeah, screw that star player that doesn't want to come here and play in a half full stadium for fans who won't buy his jersey.  He just doesn't get it.  He doesn't know what we've been through.  We don't need guys like that.  We're gonna build through the draft and I'm sure there's some 2nd and 3rd tier FA's that will just be glad to have a paycheck that will come help put this team over the top.  

That's the thing with players that can put a team over the top.  They tend to have options.  That means they have to actually want to come play for you as opposed to someone else.  Our actions as a fanbase are counterproductive to what we would like to see happen.

You trying to spin part of the Bengals problems on the fans is, well let me just say funny.

:paul:

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2018, 11:20 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'd be interested to hear what fans need to do to compel Mike Brown to hire an actual GM.

I'd like to hear that myself.

Play don't worry, be happy on loop on their cellphones the entire game and just sit and smile ? While we're getting our ass kicked by the Steelers for the 20th time in a row.

[Luvnit2]

(12-29-2018, 12:55 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Year in, year out the roster under goes change with draft and free agents. Obviously the core players remain.
but its really even in the best of times the results are the same. 1st RD playoff exit for whatever reason.

but look the AFC teams that have gone to the Super Bowl in the last 15 years....Pats Steelers Colts etc
very strong traditions.
now look at the Bengals since Lewis took over. handful of North titles. thats it.

so when the Bengals draft a player or sign a free agent.....WHATS THE SELLING POINT?
yes the Bengals draft some great talents....most players they draft are still in the NFL going back 5 years I think.

but these players they draft. Do they have that extra something to really change the culture or are they just talented
yes but when it comes time to get to the next level......they fold.
the free agents they sign. are they just happy to extend their career and thats that?
yeah they wanna start and play well but their drive to change the landscape is non existant.

when a player from USC or Texas Tech (example only) goes to the Pats or Steelers..they have a tradition to uphold.
wheres that in Cincy for a 21 year old DB from Western Michigan to embrace?

Ive seen alot players wear the Stripes. I just dont know how many were really ready to try to take this team to the next level.

If you are correct, then only a moron would stay on as a fan if their ultimate goal was winning.

You killed any hope for this franchise to win.
Why are we here if we think we have no chance??????????????

[*Nately120*]

(12-29-2018, 11:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Well, certainly, it would be a lot easier to be supportive if the team if they had more playoff success.  I certainly understand why the fanbase is negative.  But the fanbase is negative and toxic because they choose to be negative and toxic.  Other teams have been worse and still turn out to support their team better than we do.

Are the fans justified in having a toxic attitude?  Yes.  But it's still our choice to be toxic.  The FO, coaches, players, and fans are all a part of that culture.  

You know what, yeah, screw that star player that doesn't want to come here and play in a half full stadium for fans who won't buy his jersey.  He just doesn't get it.  He doesn't know what we've been through.  We don't need guys like that.  We're gonna build through the draft and I'm sure there's some 2nd and 3rd tier FA's that will just be glad to have a paycheck that will come help put this team over the top.  

That's the thing with players that can put a team over the top.  They tend to have options.  That means they have to actually want to come play for you as opposed to someone else.  Our actions as a fanbase are counterproductive to what we would like to see happen.

I'd say the quartet of misery in the NFL is the Bills, Lions, Bengals, and Browns.  What makes us extra "meh" about football compared to those fanbases may lie in the notion that when our team stink or disappoints we won't have a new HC or GM to get pointlessly excited about.

I don't see us as choosing to be toxic, so much as we are just apathetic.

As a fanbase we are able to get as stupidly excited as any other...hell, we have been pumped to see guys like AJ McCarron, Jeff Driskel, and Auden Tate get significant playing time, for Pete's sake.  If we actually followed up 3 losing seasons in a row by finding a new HC we'd explode with excitement.  This past off-season we fired our o-line coach after 25 years of crap and we made legitimate off-season moves to do something/anything to address an o-line that had been a glaring weak spot for years.  We almost orgasmed with glee.  

We've gotten optimistic over some pretty lame stuff, actually.  What choice do we have? 

[Beaker]

(12-29-2018, 07:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...it's the fans fault. It's Dillon. Pickens. Spikes. Chad Johnson. It's all their faults.

It couldn't possibly be the same management team who's been running the show since 1991 could it?

Perfect example of fan toxicity and negativity right here. Its all about blame and fault. 

You may want to explore the difference between contributing to, and causing before going off on a rant defending yourself as part of the problem instead of the solution.

[Beaker]

(12-29-2018, 08:23 PM)McC Wrote: Every small setback?  Now that's some funny shit. 

Okay, put about a hundred of those "small setbacks" end to end or side by side and now you have a major disaster, which is where we now stand.  Wheels falling off again, meaning they've fallen off before.  More than once, in fact.  Gee, why would anyone jump to that conclusion?

Okay, put about a hundred of those negative fan responses end to end or side by side and now you have a toxic and negative fan base, which is where we now stand. If you don't think that is part of the overall problematic culture around this team then you re just another one of the entitled masses who believe that everything that happens in this world is someone/something else's fault. Accept that fan toxicity is part of the problem and help change it rather than trying to justify it and keep it in place. Help change what you can control, not whine about what you cannot.

[Beaker]

(12-29-2018, 05:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

Rep. I'm glad at least some people get it.

[Catmandude123]

(12-29-2018, 12:55 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Year in, year out the roster under goes change with draft and free agents. Obviously the core players remain.
but its really even in the best of times the results are the same. 1st RD playoff exit for whatever reason.

but look the AFC teams that have gone to the Super Bowl in the last 15 years....Pats Steelers Colts etc
very strong traditions.
now look at the Bengals since Lewis took over. handful of North titles. thats it.

so when the Bengals draft a player or sign a free agent.....WHATS THE SELLING POINT?
yes the Bengals draft some great talents....most players they draft are still in the NFL going back 5 years I think.

but these players they draft. Do they have that extra something to really change the culture or are they just talented
yes but when it comes time to get to the next level......they fold.
the free agents they sign. are they just happy to extend their career and thats that?
yeah they wanna start and play well but their drive to change the landscape is non existant.

when a player from USC or Texas Tech (example only) goes to the Pats or Steelers..they have a tradition to uphold.
wheres that in Cincy for a 21 year old DB from Western Michigan to embrace?

Ive seen alot players wear the Stripes. I just dont know how many were really ready to try to take this team to the next level.

Playing for what everyone knows as the Ebenezer Scrooge of the NFL is not going to give players much incentive to excel when they look across the field and see other teams that are innovative when it comes to working the salary cap so they can get FAs that will help the team win. All the while Mike Brown ponders ways to parlay the gift his father left him into more profits. If any of you think that the Bengals wouldn't be the lowest paying team if there were no minimum you are sadly mistaken.

[McC]

(12-29-2018, 11:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Their fans still turned out and supported them on their way to playoffs.  Their fans didn't go "Oh...if you win a playoff game we'll show up next year...unless you fall off...then we still won't show up."

What does going all in on a Marvin led team even mean, exactly?  Is buying a ticket for a regular season game or a jersey of your favorite player a waste if the team loses in the playoffs?  I mean, I want Marvin gone, too, but what does that even mean?

Can you not see the irony in one of the cheapest fanbases in the NFL constantly calling out one of the cheapest owners in the NFL for being cheap?  

This team definitely needs a culture change.  Like it or not, a team's fanbase is a huge part of that culture.

Sorry but, with all due respect, HELL NO.

Do the fans create the culture?  No.  Do the fans run the crappy organization?  No.

Do the fans choose to keep a coach on such a downward spiral?  No.

If the fans are part of the culture, it's only as a reaction to the fools and morons running the circus. 

No fan base anywhere would keep coming back for more nut shots for this long.  None.  Nowhere.

Give the fans something to care about, something to give them hope, and just see how they react.  You just could not be more wrong.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-30-2018, 02:06 PM)McC Wrote: Sorry but, with all due respect, HELL NO.

Do the fans create the culture?  No.  Do the fans run the crappy organization?  No.

Do the fans choose to keep a coach on such a downward spiral?  No.

If the fans are part of the culture, it's only as a reaction to the fools and morons running the circus. 

No fan base anywhere would keep coming back for more nut shots for this long.  None.  Nowhere.

Give the fans something to care about, something to give them hope, and just see how they react.  You just could not be more wrong.

It's like claiming the guy shoveling coal in the engine room of the Titanic was part of it's sinking.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-30-2018, 11:40 AM)Beaker Wrote: Okay, put about a hundred of those negative fan responses end to end or side by side and now you have a toxic and negative fan base, which is where we now stand. If you don't think that is part of the overall problematic culture around this team then you re just another one of the entitled masses who believe that everything that happens in this world is someone/something else's fault. Accept that fan toxicity is part of the problem and help change it rather than trying to justify it and keep it in place. Help change what you can control, not whine about what you cannot.

The toxicity level (fans) is only relative to the poison (team). As a science(?) teacher, you should know this. 

Were there complaints during the playoff run of '11-15'? Sure. But they were relatively small compared to right now. 

When the team shows seasonal competitiveness, there is support. When the team shows playoff competitiveness, there is more support. When the team shows SB competitiveness ('81, '88) there is ultra-support. It's a pretty simple formula to follow. 

You're wasting your time blaming any of the team's failings on the fans, as it's completely on the team as to how the fans react. Fans don't simply go from 100-0 at the first sign of drop off. It's a process that takes time. In this current case, it's the accumulation of losing over the last 3 seasons. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2018, 05:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: People just don't get that the fans are also a part of the toxic culture.  

If I was an NFL player set to become a FA and played in one of the many games in PBS where the Bengals were having a good season and there's a ton of empty seats, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play here.  I would understand if the fans wouldn't show up to support a bad team, like this year.  However, when you can't even fill the stadium in good years, I would have conclude that either the fans don't care or they're a bunch of negative losers waiting for something bad to happen.  

The Browns fans lost their team and have been way worse than us since their return, but give them credit, they show up with hope every year.  We dwell on past failures and actively ridicule other fans for being positive.  We've become just as toxic as the organization.  

The Bengals need to make changes to change the culture.  Question is, will we change with it?

Fan support is at or near the bottom in evaluating where a player decides which team to go to. Money, playing time and SB opportunities are at the top. 

A toxic fan base is the result of a team's performance in recent years and fan support, as a reason to choose which team to go to, is only a factor in fan's minds.

[muskiesfan]

As much as I hate to say it, the Family's loyalty is the selling point. They will offer less overall money. They will offer less guaranteed money. However, the odds are in the players favor that regardless of performance that he will see every dime of the contract he signed.

[Beaker]

(12-30-2018, 02:28 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You're wasting your time blaming any of the team's failings on the fans

Youre wasting your time if you dont understand the difference between blaming the toxicity on the fans and the fans contributing to the overall toxicity. How does the constant negativity help? You should spend your energy not contributing to the toxicity rather than attempting to justify it.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-30-2018, 02:16 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's like claiming the guy shoveling coal in the engine room of the Titanic was part of it's sinking.

Well, he did have the shitty, hot, tough job of continuously shoveling coal in hot boilers. I doubt he was very positive about it.

[Beaker]

(12-29-2018, 07:58 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The "toxic culture" is a direct result of a GM who hasn't won anything and continues to operate as he has since the day he took over. He's had the same HC in place for getting ready to be 17 years !!!! and he hasn't won anything either.

The fans are fed up and you can't blame them.

You cant blame them for the losses, but you can blame them for adding to the overall toxicity surrounding the franchise. You cannot deny that fans are an integral part of any sports franchise. So as fans, we have the choice of whether to be vitriolic and negative or not. And my question stands, what good does being negative do? its rhetorical...negativity only hinders, it does not help in any way.

(12-29-2018, 07:59 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: It's not their fault that they're jaded. 

Yes it is. You have the power to control your own feelings and actions. Always blaming someone else is simply a way to avoid personal responsibility for your actions.

Quote:This is ridiculous to place blame on culture of the fans.

It's even more ridiculous to think that the fans have no part in the culture of a team.

[Beaker]

(12-30-2018, 02:06 PM)McC Wrote: Do the fans create the culture?  No.  

Are the fans part of a team's overall culture? Yes. Can fans choose not to be part of the problem? Yes. Does consistent negativity help anything? No.

Stop trying to justify the negativity. You don't have to enjoy the losing, but you don't have to contribute to the negativity of it either.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-30-2018, 02:48 PM)Beaker Wrote: Youre wasting your time if you dont understand the difference between blaming the toxicity on the fans and the fans contributing to the overall toxicity. How does the constant negativity help? You should spend your energy not contributing to the toxicity rather than attempting to justify it.

I'm not justifying anything. Just claiming that there is no causation in fan support/lack of and a team winning/losing. The negativity doesn't help or hurt the team's play on the field. That's delusional and entitled fan-thought.

Fans contributing to the "overall toxicity" is a DIRECT result of extended losing by said team and it's justified on its own merits. Singing kumbaya, hugging trees and thinking happy thoughts will not cause a team to magically play better and become more competitive. 

[Catmandude123]

(12-30-2018, 11:40 AM)Beaker Wrote: Okay, put about a hundred of those negative fan responses end to end or side by side and now you have a toxic and negative fan base, which is where we now stand. If you don't think that is part of the overall problematic culture around this team then you re just another one of the entitled masses who believe that everything that happens in this world is someone/something else's fault. Accept that fan toxicity is part of the problem and help change it rather than trying to justify it and keep it in place. Help change what you can control, not whine about what you cannot.

I guess the fans in Pittsburgh were the same in the 41 years before they won a super bowl? NO...They were  the same after the next five? NO.... You would have to be pretty dumb to not equate success with a positive fan base. You would be hard pressed to find an enthusiastic fan base in any town that constantly puts out a poor product year in and year out. It has been three years since the last playoff appearance and twenty six since the last win and with the teams showing this year the next years don't look too promising. Facing the future with an owner who refuses to go after players in free agency its awfully hard to be optimistic. Maybe a fan revolt is what will make the front office stand up and take notice, if not at least we have got to vent a little before next year. WHO DEY