I think we should trade Dalton and Green

[Circleville Guy]

(01-05-2019, 11:00 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I want to see what a new HC can do with this core (AJ, Geno, Andy, Dunlap) before we even think about tearing it all down and rebuilding. Especially now that we’ve added some nice young pieces like Boyd, Mixon, Bates, and WJ3.

What’s up with all these trade threads anyway?

I started one of those threads, mine wasn’t the first either. Speaking for myself, I’m just caught up in the offseason and finally ditching Marvin. I look at it as a chance to strip things to the bare and have a clean slate and a totally new direction. My thread was more asking the question of trade vs. stating that they should. There’s just so many directions that they could take things and for me, it’s a little bit excited. I get that there should only be so many threads with the similar topic though. I’m just kinda amped right now on what could be for both the Bengals and the Reds.

[Nati#1]

Trade Dalton for Aaron Rodgers and our whole draft for this year and our 1st round next year.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-06-2019, 12:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not going to claim that 2nd year players don't emerge every year, because they do.  What I will propose is the idea that maybe those guys were just good football players to begin with, and simply had to wait their turn behind better talent?  I'm not sure that it can be argued that Jefferson is a really good football player who was simply waiting his turn to get into the game.  Did you see the LB crew that the Bengals fielded this season?  They kept putting Hardy Nickerson Jr. out there, and even gave him the helmet radio..

When Marvin assumed the role of DC for the rest of the season;  I wonder if he asked himself why his 3rd round LB, with phenomenal physical attributes, wasn't getting any action during a season that was obviously going nowhere?  

I'm guessing it was mental with Jefferson.  If that's the case, then yes, a year on the bench and in the meeting room could do wonders for the guy.

I also think scheme is extremely important for Jefferson.  Hopefully the new DC is a good fit for him.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-06-2019, 12:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Looking like they're going to have to come up with two (2) starting LBs, as Preston Brown was only on a one year deal, and is currently a free agent.  If Brown returns to full health, I think that he showed enough in limited action this season to warrant offering him another contract.  Otherwise, I think that they'll have to draft one LB high, another later, and secure a stable vet from free agency.

We can all speculate until we're blue in the face, but we really won't have much clue as to what will really happen until the HC position is filled, and weather they allow the new HC to place his own staff or force the existing assistants upon him.  I agree with you though, rebuilding the OL is priority #1 for whomever takes the HC position.

While I agree with this sentiment as a MLB when in base, it seems as though our base defense is rarely utilized.  I also think the traditional MLB that is a run-stuffing plodder is about as useful as a full back now.  Which is to say, not very and we used our DE to contribute in that roll.

Did you happen to see the defense that SD employed against Baltimore?  Three LBs that were all SAFETIES!!! I have never seen that before but it sure worked.  Jackson couldn't outrun them to the edge.  I thought that was a hell of a coaching decision.  

The Bengals need speed at LB.  Real speed.  Like Roquan Smith speed.  And toughness.  And instincts.  I don't think we have anyone with those characteristics, although I think Vigil is the best of what we have.  He needs to be paired with a speedy, tough, instinctive LB like White from LSU.  

They should also see what FA are available that could provide quality depth, as we always seem to lose LBs to injury. 

I think the OL would be close if they could just get a better option at RT and RG.  Maybe Westerman wins the job.  Maybe Redmond improves.  Maybe Hart is replaced with a draft pick.  Regardless, I think a RT and a RG could be available later while a game-changing LB like White would be our round 1 target.  

[Hoofhearted]

Are we playing for participation trophies or Super Bowls?

Last time I checked, hasn't AJ and AD had three straight losing seasons as well? Or are we placing that all on ML & MB even tho they never played a down of football? Didn't AD and AJ also go win-less in the PO here?

[Sled21]

(01-07-2019, 10:35 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Are we playing for participation trophies or Super Bowls?

Last time I checked, hasn't AJ and AD had three straight losing seasons as well? Or are we placing that all on ML & MB even tho they never played a down of football? Didn't AD and AJ also go win-less in the PO here?

Ok, who are you going to replace AJ with that is better than him? Who are you going to replace Dalton with that is better than him? It's easy to say trade someone.... let's hear who you are going to replace them with that is available and better??????

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 10:52 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Ok, who are you going to replace AJ with that is better than him? Who are you going to replace Dalton with that is better than him? It's easy to say trade someone.... let's hear who you are going to replace them with that is available and better??????

Draft picks. Draft and develop is the mantra, right?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-07-2019, 10:35 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Are we playing for participation trophies or Super Bowls?

Last time I checked, hasn't AJ and AD had three straight losing seasons as well? Or are we placing that all on ML & MB even tho they never played a down of football? Didn't AD and AJ also go win-less in the PO here?

After watching LA totally change their defensive scheme to contain Lamar Jackson (along with having a backup plan in case it didn't work according to what I read), yes, I put A LOT of the onus on Marvin Lewis' lack of creativity.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-07-2019, 11:50 AM)Wyche Wrote: After watching LA totally change their defensive scheme to contain Lamar Jackson (along with having a backup plan in case it didn't work according to what I read), yes, I put A LOT of the onus on Marvin Lewis' lack of creativity.

Spot on

The evidence of it is everywhere, if you look.

[Au165]

Why isn't there a "We should trade..." sub forum?

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 11:50 AM)Wyche Wrote: After watching LA totally change their defensive scheme to contain Lamar Jackson (along with having a backup plan in case it didn't work according to what I read), yes, I put A LOT of the onus on Marvin Lewis' lack of creativity.

Their D also has better players to execute said plan. All comes back around to is it the Jimmies and Joes, or the X's and O's?

[Sled21]

(01-07-2019, 11:17 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Draft picks. Draft and develop is the mantra, right?

So, trade a proven top 5 receiver for a draft pick that can turn out to be another John Ross...….. Brilliant!

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 12:04 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So, trade a proven top 5 receiver for a draft pick that can turn out to be another John Ross...….. Brilliant!

Pessimistically, sure. Or could be Jerry Rice? Don't let that stop your brilliant logic

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-07-2019, 11:56 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Their D also has better players to execute said plan. All comes back around to is it the Jimmies and Joes, or the X's and O's?

It's both.  That said, Marv had some pretty damn good rosters that had ZERO answers in the playoffs.  Honest question.....have you ever seen a Marvin Lewis coached team do anything so remotely out of their wheelhouse in any game...let alone a playoff game?  Case in point, this season.  You have a historically bad defense, yet you continually defer when you win the toss.  Why not switch it up and try to gain some momentum by seeing if your offense can march down the field and score?  Instead, we continually watched opponents shred our defense damn near every game on the opening drive.  Playing from behind every week isn't exactly getting off on the right foot.

Look at Philly last year.  Changed their offense up to accommodate Foles....what did we do for Driskel?


FWIW: coaching, in my opinion, is a bigger part of success in football than most other sports.

[Sled21]

(01-07-2019, 12:11 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Pessimistically, sure. Or could be Jerry Rice? Don't let that stop your brilliant logic

How many Jerry Rice's come out of the draft, and how many John Ross's. You don't trade a top player for an unknown. Especially one that is tops at his position, a locker room leader, and wants to retire here....

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 12:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's both.  That said, Marv had some pretty damn good rosters that had ZERO answers in the playoffs.  Honest question.....have you ever seen a Marvin Lewis coached team do anything so remotely out of their wheelhouse in any game...let alone a playoff game?  Case in point, this season.  You have a historically bad defense, yet you continually defer when you win the toss.  Why not switch it up and try to gain some momentum by seeing if your offense can march down the field and score?  Instead, we continually watched opponents shred our defense damn near every game on the opening drive.  Playing from behind every week isn't exactly getting off on the right foot.

Look at Philly last year.  Changed their offense up to accommodate Foles....what did we do for Driskel?


FWIW:  coaching, in my opinion, is a bigger part of success in football than most other sports.

Yea, it is both. But coaches don't call plays for AD to throw an interception. Or he doesn't teach the defense to be the worst D in a LONG time. Maybe, just maybe, we're not as talented as we'd like to think? 

Maybe running more RPO plays for driskel wouldn't of fit with the horrid line? Having them not knowing if it's run or pass sounds like a recipe for a QB death on the field. Maybe Lazor wasn't familiar enough with that sort of offense? Again, I am not sure, but what I do know is they have has the same lack of success as ML has. Everybody wanted him out like the plague, but our darling QB and WR are immune from these sorts of talks because we now want to pin all this on ML? It  has to be 100,000% ML fault is kinda silly IMO. 

We should look to upgrade any position on the team. I don't know why people are so in love with players and not fielding the best possible team to win a SB. I don't give a dam if it's Rudy from ND catching a football, just give me the best players. If it's AJ, great! One less player we have to worry about. I just don't know why people get some defensive when talking about upgrading the TEAM at certain positions. Then throw slights at them because we want to think about all potential options. It's whatever.

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 12:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: How many Jerry Rice's come out of the draft, and how many John Ross's. You don't trade a top player for an unknown. Especially one that is tops at his position, a locker room leader, and wants to retire here....

Only one, but does that mean 100% certain it'll be John Ross if it's not Jerry Rice? I personally wouldn't do it, but if they're committed to rebuilding this team and aligning it with the HC, I am totally fine if they decide to beef up the draft capitalt. I'd love nothing more than to see AJ do his circus catches, but if there's a solid plan to make this team better, we should absolutely discuss the options. If it fails? Make a new plan and try again. Keep going until you get it right. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-07-2019, 12:36 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yea, it is both. But coaches don't call plays for AD to throw an interception. Or he doesn't teach the defense to be the worst D in a LONG time. Maybe, just maybe, we're not as talented as we'd like to think? 

Maybe running more RPO plays for driskel wouldn't of fit with the horrid line? Having them not knowing if it's run or pass sounds like a recipe for a QB death on the field. Maybe Lazor wasn't familiar enough with that sort of offense? Again, I am not sure, but what I do know is they have has the same lack of success as ML has. Everybody wanted him out like the plague, but our darling QB and WR are immune from these sorts of talks because we now want to pin all this on ML? It  has to be 100,000% ML fault is kinda silly IMO. 

We should look to upgrade any position on the team. I don't know why people are so in love with players and not fielding the best possible team to win a SB. I don't give a dam if it's Rudy from ND catching a football, just give me the best players. If it's AJ, great! One less player we have to worry about. I just don't know why people get some defensive when talking about upgrading the TEAM at certain positions. Then throw slights at them because we want to think about all potential options. It's whatever.

I'm really not defensive about anything my friend.  If you'll read back in this thread, I'm for trading/cutting everyone if we're going full rebuild.  If the new guy thinks he can win with what we have, then so be it.  Having said that, you know all to well that even the best players will ultimately fail if coaching doesn't put them in the best position to win, or doesn't adapt to player strenghts; i.e., shoving round pegs in square holes.  Look at Pig Pen's first SB win....he had a 35 passer rating.   Marvin was a mediocre HC at best.  At the first sign of adversity over the years, like INTs or fumbles, his teams folded.  Then they melted down when they had one in the bag.

I can go either way, full on rebuild, or giving these guys another shot with fresh ideas.  There's no denying the team has major holes now, but in years past, that was not the case.  His record against Pitt is almost unfathomable.  Now there's talk of him going there.

EDIT: Look at our own history at what Sam Wyche did against a team full of HOFers in the SB with his QB nursing a bum shoulder, and his starting NT going out early. That's what I'm getting at here....innovation. We lost.....but Sam's innovative ideas made a team with one HOFer a juggernaut for a stretch.

[Sled21]

(01-07-2019, 12:40 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Only one, but does that mean 100% certain it'll be John Ross if it's not Jerry Rice? I personally wouldn't do it, but if they're committed to rebuilding this team and aligning it with the HC, I am totally fine if they decide to beef up the draft capitalt. I'd love nothing more than to see AJ do his circus catches, but if there's a solid plan to make this team better, we should absolutely discuss the options. If it fails? Make a new plan and try again. Keep going until you get it right. 

Of course it's not 100%, the draft never is. But considering the number of players that become superstars as opposed to the number of players that get drafted, only to be out of the league in just a few years, the %'s of replacing an AJ Green with a draft pick are very low. ANy plan to revamp this team that involves getting rid of it's best players, is ludicrous. You do not get rid of an AJ Green, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Joe Mixon, etc. You build around them....

[Hoofhearted]

(01-07-2019, 12:58 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Of course it's not 100%, the draft never is. But considering the number of players that become superstars as opposed to the number of players that get drafted, only to be out of the league in just a few years, the %'s of replacing an AJ Green with a draft pick are very low. ANy plan to revamp this team that involves getting rid of it's best players, is ludicrous. You do not get rid of an AJ Green, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Joe Mixon, etc. You build around them....

I'd have AJ way down the list myself as well. But if AJ says he doesn't want to play with a rookie QB, then what?