In A Showdown With The Program I Present Through

[CKwi88]

(02-18-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  Because multiple people here have identified situations where suicide was not about "being selfish".  So it probably would not be a good idea to start attacking people who disagree with you on this point.

Are you also going to line up the family member of the thousands of ex-military men who are committing suicide every day and tell them how all those guys were weak cowards and not as great as you are because you didn't take the easy way out?

You have suffered a lot physically Brad, but there are a lot of things you still don't understand.  You have never promised a wife or children that you would support them.  You have never been traumatized by war.  You have never suffered from mental illness.  Maybe you don't realize the burden of taking care of another person because you have never even been responsible for supporting yourself.

I really don't think you are as big of an expert on life and suicide as you think.  So if you do want to talk about suicide just make sure you talk about people in your specific situation and don't make broad generalizations about things you don't understand.

Brad/Fred threads=best threads. 







For the record, characterizing all suicides as "selfish" and "the easy way out" is a grossly narrow-minded and ignorant position on an extraordinarily complex issue. And invoking the divine in a public school on anything other than a personal level (implying there might be consequences to not believing in the divine) is also irresponsible at best. I feel like you should be able to put together a great presentation on overcoming adversity and taking responsibility for one's own actions without imposing unnecessarily on children.

[BFritz21]

(02-18-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  Because multiple people here have identified situations where suicide was not about "being selfish".  So it probably would not be a good idea to start attacking people who disagree with you on this point.

It has only been a few people, but, once again, you twist words to make it sound like an entire mob. 

Also, I obviously am only talking about people who kill themselves, rather than facing life and leaving their loved ones in mourning and/or financial/legal/etc. difficulties.

(02-18-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Are you also going to line up the family member of the thousands of ex-military men who are committing suicide every day and tell them how all those guys were weak cowards and not as great as you are because you didn't take the easy way out?

That's obviously different and completely different circumstances.

When have I ever said that I'm great?

(02-18-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have suffered a lot physically Brad, but there are a lot of things you still don't understand.  You have never promised a wife or children that you would support them.  You have never been traumatized by war.  You have never suffered from mental illness.  

There's a lot more that you don't understand, even though you claim to be an expert on it all.

Also, I've never suffered from mental illness?  My whole life has been one big mental illness since the wreck.  Especially just after, the way my brain was operating and giving me horrible mental pictures and ideas was characterized by a lot of psychiatrists as a mental illness and I was heavily medicated because of it.

Once again, you toss out loads and loads of empty rhetoric.

(02-18-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I really don't think you are as big of an expert on life and suicide as you think.  So if you do want to talk about suicide just make sure you talk about people in your specific situation and don't make broad generalizations about things you don't understand.

I'm pretty sure that I understand the situations of my life that I discuss much better than you do.  Actually, I'm 100% positive on that.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 08:56 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm pretty sure that I understand the situations of my life that I discuss much better than you do.  Actually, I'm 100% positive on that.

You are absolutely correct.  That is why I said you should stick to your own story and circumstances when presenting.

As I said before I don't think you intend to, but when you start putting down every person who has committed suicide and claim you are better than them because you were not "selfish" and did not "Take the easy way out" you are insulting a lot of vets, mentally ill people, and people who really did sacrifice their lives because they were a burden to their loved ones.

Feel free to talk about why you chose not to kill yourself.  Just stop making broad generalizations and insulting every person who ever did.

[BFritz21]

(02-18-2019, 09:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are absolutely correct.  That is why I said you should stick to your own story and circumstances when presenting.

As I said before I don't think you intend to, but when you start putting down every person who has committed suicide and claim you are better than them because you were not "selfish" and did not "Take the easy way out" you are insulting a lot of vets, mentally ill people, and people who really did sacrifice their lives because they were a burden to their loved ones.

Feel free to talk about why you chose not to kill yourself.  Just stop making broad generalizations and insulting every person who ever did.

I said that was the way I was raised in believing that.  

In no way do I ever put down anyone who has ever committed suicide.

In fact, kids who have had family members or friends commit suicide have come up after crying and thanking me for helping them get over it, just as many have told me that I've taken suicide from their minds.

I also love how you ignore the rest of my post.

Also, burden on their loved ones is a good reason to commit suicide?  Show me one instance where a family is glad that their loved one killed themself because it lessened their burden and then show me some evidence that it's more common than the loved ones being upset.

[BFritz21]

(02-18-2019, 09:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  Maybe you don't realize the burden of taking care of another person because you have never even been responsible for supporting yourself.

I also love how you deleted this part of your post when it was the worst possible shot you could take at me because my family is everything to me.

I do support myself because I lived on my own in college and live in an attachment off the side of my sister's house but I'm totally independent.  

I also live on government aid but also have money from the wreck, so you fail there, also.

I do realize how big of a burden it had on my family though considering that they were all depressed and on medication.  My sister had to live with a friend because my family was always at the hospital and she wanted to kill herself.  Financially, the burden on my family was unreal considering they had to take out multiple mortgages on our house and cars, which still wasn't enough because they had to have fundraisers.  My brother was on golf scholarship to college but had to quit because he couldn't focus (he was the one that dropped me off at my friend's, so he feels guilty because I asked him to drive us but didn't tell him that my friend was going to drive us) and also because he spent so much time at the hospital.

So, please, what were you trying to add to this thread other than bashing me with your empty rhetoric?

[Au165]

(02-18-2019, 11:49 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So, please, what were you trying to add to this thread other than bashing me with your empty rhetoric?

He's trying to give you some perspective that it appears you need, as are many us here are trying. It doesn't appear you are really looking for any feedback other than reinforcement of what you already believe to be the right answer. 

[*michaelsean*]

Brad I would say your characterization is way too general. I have to imagine you experienced depression at some point after your accident. Imagine it never stops. I think I mentioned here that my son had to have a benign tumor removed from his leg. They saw it on an MRI, we went to a specialist, and the specialist all but assured me it was benign, but he couldn't say 100% until they removed it and biopsied it. most parents would be "Hey that's great." i was a mess because I didn't get a 100% guarantee. For close to three weeks I experienced anxiety beyond anything that approached the actual reality. It was absurd, and there was nothing I could do about it. Then they did the surgery, then the biopsy, all was good, and I have never felt better in my life. There was nothing wrong with the world. Poof all my troubles were gone. I tell this because people with depression are way worse than I was, and there is no end. There is no relief, because there is no acute cause. There is no time in the future to get to when the burden will be lifted. People live with this for decades until they just can't anymore.

I know a woman (not well-I knew her husband when we were kids) who was married with three daughters, financially secure, and she couldn't get out of bed most days. One day she hung herself. That isn't a selfish person. That was a person who had been tormented for decades until she just couldn't take it anymore.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 11:49 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I also love how you deleted this part of your post when it was the worst possible shot you could take at me because my family is everything to me.

I deleted that part becuase I felt it was no necessary.

I want you to actually listen to what I am saying instead of just getting defensive and shutting down.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 09:16 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: In no way do I ever put down anyone who has ever committed suicide.

Yes you do.  You say they are selfish.  You say they are weak because they "take the easy way out".

Seriously, Brad, if you don't realize that calling someone selfish is an insult you need some help.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 09:16 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Also, burden on their loved ones is a good reason to commit suicide?  

It would be for me.  I know they would be sad without me, but if they would be better off in the long run then I would make the sacrifice.   This is especially true with old people who are sick or feeble and no they are not going to get any better.  They know they are not going to live forever, and if they are a burden to theiir family then they may end their life to relieve loved ones of a burden.

I guess some people are just bothered more by being a burden to others.  I know it would drive me crazy.  I would feel terrible every day knowing I was holding back my loved ones.  I would not be ableto stand it.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-19-2019, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It would be for me.  I know they would be sad without me, but if they would be better off in the long run then I would make the sacrifice.   This is especially true with old people who are sick or feeble and no they are not going to get any better.  They know they are not going to live forever, and if they are a burden to theiir family then they may end their life to relieve loved ones of a burden.

I guess some people are just bothered more by being a burden to others.  I know it would drive me crazy.  I would feel terrible every day knowing I was holding back my loved ones.  I would not be ableto stand it.

That's a tricky one.  That's now deciding what's best for them.  your daughters for example may see the burden of taking care of you as worth having you around two or three or however more years.  Plus suicide is always going to leave a lasting impact on those you leave behind.  Including guilt.  You'd be doing it for the right reasons, but it may not be the desired outcome.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 09:16 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:  Show me one instance where a family is glad that their loved one killed themself because it lessened their burden and then show me some evidence that it's more common than the loved ones being upset.

Sherry Clifton was the Grainger County Court clerk for several years when I worked there.  Her husband struggled with depression and finally killed himself about 5 years ago.  Of course she was upset at the time, but now she is re-married and happy.  She no longer has to deal with a mentally ill husband.

You may think that the world will stop spinning when you die and that your family will mourn every day for the rest of their lives, but that is not how it works.  People move on.  They still miss deceased loved ones, but they keep on living their lives and find happiness.

As I said before there are way too many teenagers who kill themselves over something other than being a burden or having clinical depression.  We need to get the message to them that suicide is not the answer.  But we can't do that just by insulting people who kill themselves.  

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 11:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: That's a tricky one.  That's now deciding what's best for them.  your daughters for example may see the burden of taking care of you as worth having you around two or three or however more years.  Plus suicide is always going to leave a lasting impact on those you leave behind.  Including guilt.  You'd be doing it for the right reasons, but it may not be the desired outcome.

This is a very good point.  There is always some level of guilt felt by some of the surviving friends and family.

I don't want to sound like I am promoting suicide.  If it is a mental health issue then people need to be encouraged to get help.  But in end-of-life situations I believe assisted suicide should be legal.  And while many people would agree with the end-of-life situation for elderly or terminally ill there is a huge grey area involving young people who may just be disabled and/or depressed.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-19-2019, 12:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a very good point.  There is always some level of guilt felt by some of the surviving friends and family.

I don't want to sound like I am promoting suicide.  If it is a mental health issue then people need to be encouraged to get help.  But in end-of-life situations I believe assisted suicide should be legal.  And while many people would agree with the end-of-life situation for elderly or terminally ill there is a huge grey area involving young people who may just be disabled and/or depressed.

Oh yeah there are legitimate end of life discussions.  Be it DNR or a little too much morphine.  If you are talking days or weeks or even a month or two, yeah I see that.  

I would say suicide is an unbelievably complex issue, and has to be taken on a case by case basis and certainly not generalized.  I would say the vast majority of physically healthy adults who take their lives merit our sympathy.  I'm not speaking of say direct family members whose array of emotions have to be insane, but for those of us on the outside looking in. The assumption has to be that they were in an intolerable situation mentally, and for the most part they really tried everything they could. 

 I know it may sound overwrought, but when I hear of a middle aged person, often a parent, who takes their life knowing full well the impact it will have, I don't feel anger like a lot of people would, I think that they gave every last thing they had to staying around as long as possible.  They fought a lonely silent battle for decades that most of us can't even understand.  

So I'm sorry, Brad.  But the more I think on it, the more I think you are well-intentioned but wrong.  Most suicides have nothing to do with not wanting to face the consequences of their actions.  It's just the only way to stop the pain that is never  going away.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I deleted that part becuase I felt it was no necessary.

I want you to actually listen to what I am saying instead of just getting defensive and shutting down.

I do but you so often throw out false information and/or change your mind because you realize that you were just posting with rhetoric that had no substance in an attempt to bash me.

(02-19-2019, 10:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes you do.  You say they are selfish.  You say they are weak because they "take the easy way out".

Seriously, Brad, if you don't realize that calling someone selfish is an insult you need some help.

Killing themself and causing their family and friends pain, rather than facing life, is not selfish?

Killing themself rather than taking on life's problems is not taking the easy way out?  I realize that it's not an easy decision, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't the easy way out. 

(02-19-2019, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It would be for me.  I know they would be sad without me, but if they would be better off in the long run then I would make the sacrifice.   This is especially true with old people who are sick or feeble and no they are not going to get any better.  They know they are not going to live forever, and if they are a burden to theiir family then they may end their life to relieve loved ones of a burden.

I guess some people are just bothered more by being a burden to others.  I know it would drive me crazy.  I would feel terrible every day knowing I was holding back my loved ones.  I would not be ableto stand it.

It would be FOR YOU, which goes back to it being selfish.  Deciding that curing your guilt is more important than their sadness is selfish.

Also, I'm obviously not talking about elderly people in my presentation, so, once again, you're taking the debate out-of-context to argue something that has no real base.

(02-19-2019, 12:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sherry Clifton was the Grainger County Court clerk for several years when I worked there.  Her husband struggled with depression and finally killed himself about 5 years ago.  Of course she was upset at the time, but now she is re-married and happy.  She no longer has to deal with a mentally ill husband.

You may think that the world will stop spinning when you die and that your family will mourn every day for the rest of their lives, but that is not how it works.  People move on.  They still miss deceased loved ones, but they keep on living their lives and find happiness.

As I said before there are way too many teenagers who kill themselves over something other than being a burden or having clinical depression.  We need to get the message to them that suicide is not the answer.  But we can't do that just by insulting people who kill themselves.  

Being happy now doesn't mean that it wasn't selfish at the time.  Was his being depressed enough of a reason to deal with all the pain it brought her?

She's happy now, but how do you know that she wouldn't have been happier if he were still alive?

The example I provided earlier:

Quote:Take for instance my friend, Kevin Martella: anyone in Greater Cincinnati might remember when his dad was found guilty of stealing $100,000 worth of cigarettes and then killed himself to avoid the consequences.  That is taking the easy way out, rather than dealing with your problems.  His son, my friend, later killed himself, which further proves how selfish it was for his old man to kill himself.

You don't think that was selfish of his old man to kill himself and cause his family and friends that much pain, which later caused his son to kill himself, causing more friends and family pain?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 03:43 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Also, I'm obviously not talking about elderly people in my presentation, so, once again, you're taking the debate out-of-context to argue something that has no real base.

Yes you are.

(02-17-2019, 11:03 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I almost want to go to the girl that complained and just ask her "so your grandpa decided to kill himself rather than facing life, so how is that not taking the easy way out? 

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 03:43 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: She's happy now, but how do you know that she wouldn't have been happier if he were still alive?

Because now she does not have to suffer with a mentally ill husband?


Honestly I have no idea how she feels in her heart, but neither do you.  

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 03:43 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You don't think that was selfish of his old man to kill himself and cause his family and friends that much pain, which later caused his son to kill himself, causing more friends and family pain?

Generally a parent committing suicide does not cause a child to do it.  I'd guess it was more a situation of a mental illness shared by father and son.

What was the sons name?  Did he leave a note saying why he committed suicide?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 03:43 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It would be FOR YOU, which goes back to it being selfish.  Deciding that curing your guilt is more important than their sadness is selfish.

It would not be about my guilt.  It would be about relieving my loved ones of a burden.   I would be doing it for them instead of me.

I know they would be sad, but I also know they would be better off without me in the long run.  No one lives forever so they are going to suffer my loss at some point anyway.

[fredtoast]

(02-16-2019, 09:36 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:  then also complained about how my presentation ends with Pascal's Wager (if you live your live like there is a God and there turns out to be no God, what do you lose?  If you live your life like there is no God and there turns out to be a God, you spend eternity paying for it)

I have never understood this argument.

If there is a God do you think he will be satisfied if I tell him "I never really believed in you but I pretended to."  Wouldn't God be able to look into my heart while I was alive and see that I was lying all along?  Isn't that the whole point of "Just living a good life will not get you into heaven."