Josh Rosen

[Whodey614]

(03-04-2019, 03:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it won't.




Dalton has proven he can win in the NFL.  Rosen has looked like trash and has not shown anything that would indicate he will ever be a better NFL QB than Dalton

Over the past decade there have been 284 QB seasons with at least 300 attempts.  Rosen's 66.7 rating last year ranks 277 out of those 284.  Other than DeShone Kizer in 2017 you have to go back 6 years to find a season as bad as Rosen's.

He also has one of the worst sack rates and fumbled 10 times in 14 games while Dalton has only fumbled 5 times in the last 2 seasons combined.

I agree he didn't have a good season last year but it's only year 1 and all it takes is the right mind and system to unlock a QB. We saw that with McVay and Goff. To be fair, didn't a lot of us say that Baker Mayfield wouldn't be better than Dalton especially when he started slow? Then a coaching change happened and he went on a tear. Mayfield vs Dalton will most likely not be a debate after next season. It's barely a debate now in most people's eyes.

And again, we bring up how many times Dalton has been dealt a bad hand with having a bad OL and inept coaching. Rosen had to deal with a coaching staff that couldn't utilize David Johnson correctly, he had a CFL level offensive line, his only reliable WRs was a rookie and Larry Fitzgerald that has one foot in a retirement home. That same coaching staff got fired after one season and now the management wants to trade him too. All in his rookie season. Seems like a very poor situation in Arizona all around.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 03:39 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: He also had this guy named AJ Green, a 1000 yard rusher, a top 7 defense led by Mike Zimmer and an OL that only allowed 25 sacks.

Rookie AJ Green who also had no off season and was learning the game with a QB he got about a month of practice with before games? Not like future HoF'er Larry fitzgerald or anything (who was an 1150 WR the year before Rosen got there).

A 1k yard rusher? You mean like David Johnson the 940 yard rusher, and 446 reciever?

Not sure what the defense has to do with Rosen throwing a bunch of interceptions and taking a bunch of sacks but okay.

You mean Rosen who took sacks at a rate nearly twice as often as Palmer the year before with the same line?

You act as if Andy came into a good team, we were picking 4th for a reason that year. As I have pointed out there was NO off season that year meaning as a rookie he had the least amount of coaching of any rookie (tied with others in that class) of any rookie QB in the modern NFL. You reaching hard, Rosen was historically bad last year for a top 10 pick...like David Carr bad.

[Catmandude123]

(03-03-2019, 12:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the Cards do trade Rosen they can not ask for much in return.  There has to be something bad wrong with a QB to trade him away after just one season.

Even if they draft Murray they must trade Rosen before preseason or risk the chance of him underperforming and tanking his value. I don't believe they will draft another QB when they need so many positions filled.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 04:27 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Even if they draft Murray they must trade Rosen before preseason or risk the chance of him underperforming and tanking his value. I don't believe they will draft another QB when they need so many positions filled.

They aren't taking Murray unless they can move Rosen first. Rosen will be gone before Murray's name is called otherwise Murray's name won't be called. 

[THE PISTONS]

(03-04-2019, 04:27 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Even if they draft Murray they must trade Rosen before preseason or risk the chance of him underperforming and tanking his value. I don't believe they will draft another QB when they need so many positions filled.

Yep. Why would they?

[Whodey614]

(03-04-2019, 04:17 PM)Au165 Wrote: Rookie AJ Green who also had no off season and was learning the game with a QB he got about a month of practice with before games? Not like future HoF'er Larry fitzgerald or anything (who was an 1150 WR the year before Rosen got there).

A 1k yard rusher? You mean like David Johnson the 940 yard rusher, and 446 reciever?

Not sure what the defense has to do with Rosen throwing a bunch of interceptions and taking a bunch of sacks but okay.

You mean Rosen who took sacks at a rate nearly twice as often as Palmer the year before with the same line?

You act as if Andy came into a good team, we were picking 4th for a reason that year. As I have pointed out there was NO off season that year meaning as a rookie he had the least amount of coaching of any rookie (tied with others in that class) of any rookie QB in the modern NFL. You reaching hard, Rosen was historically bad last year for a top 10 pick...like David Carr bad.

AJ Green as a rookie is WAY better than Christian Kirk and 36-year-old Larry Fitzgerald.

David Johnson was very underused as I already pointed out. Still effective, but nowhere near his potential.

Funny how you call it Rosen throwing a "bunch of interceptions" when he only threw 1 more than Dalton did in his rookie year. The defense played a huge part as to why we made the playoffs that year. Let's not have revisionist history. Compare the '11 Bengals defense that ranked 7th in total defense and 9th in scoring defense to the '18 Cardinals that ranked 20th in total defense and 26th in scoring defense.

The OL was bad when Palmer was the QB. It regressed, even more, the next season.

Dalton didn't walk into a good team just like Rosen didn't walk into a good team. Don't get me wrong, he had a good rookie year but it helps when you have a star WR to go with a good OC and a defense that'll keep you in games. Rosen had none of that.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 04:33 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: AJ Green as a rookie is WAY better than Christian Kirk and 36-year-old Larry Fitzgerald.

David Johnson was very underused as I already pointed out. Still effective, but nowhere near his potential.

Funny how you call it Rosen throwing a "bunch of interceptions" when he only threw 1 more than Dalton did in his rookie year. The defense played a huge part as to why we made the playoffs that year. Let's not have revisionist history. Compare the '11 Bengals defense that ranked 7th in total defense and 9th in scoring defense to the '18 Cardinals that ranked 20th in total defense and 26th in scoring defense.

The OL was bad when Palmer was the QB. It regressed, even more, the next season.

Dalton didn't walk into a good team just like Rosen. Don't get me wrong, he had a good rookie year but it helps when you have a star WR to go with a good OC and a defense that'll keep you in games. Rosen had none of that.

No, he wasn't better as a rookie than Fitzgerald was last year. As hard as people find it to understand there is a lot of nuance to running routes in the NFL and Fitzgerald is still one of the bets, hence why he had over 1k yards two seasons ago. AJ year 2 sure, but AJ year 1 was still raw as heck.

Under utilized or not they basically had a 1k yard rusher so this point is moot.

1 more interception with half the TD's? sure. The defense did not make him throw interceptions and not TD's or for that matter eat 40 sacks.

It was bad when Palmer was there and was the same line yet Palmer ate almost half as many sacks per drop back. Although Blaine Gabbert when he was in ate sacks at a similar rate to Rosen, which proves my point. You brought this on yourself claiming Rosen was good at moving and keeping eyes down field....he wasn't.

Rosen had historically one of the worst rookie years ever however you want to slice it, the Cardinals were not one of the historically worst teams ever. Take it for what you will, but the guy is not good and was probably over drafted coming out. He predetermines throws and can't read defenses. He is slow to process blitzes which leads to his sacks. He throws a pretty ball with adequate arm strength but he is not NFL ready, not even at a level Dalton was coming out. 

Look at it this way, Murray isn't as clean of a prospect coming out as Mayfield yet the Cardinals will give up on Rosen a year in to take him and essentially take a bath on Rosen in terms of return. Why? My guess is those in the building know they messed up and now it's about trying to recover.

[Catmandude123]

(03-04-2019, 04:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: They aren't taking Murray unless they can move Rosen first. Rosen will be gone before Murray's name is called otherwise Murray's name won't be called. 

Being first to draft gives them that luxury but by trying to deal him before the draft tips their hand and makes his value drop. Someone who needs to sell puts the buyer in a great position. The Cards coach doesn't want him so then I truly believe that Zac isn't going to break the bank to buy someone else's trash. If they could get him for a third it might be worth taking a flyer on him.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 04:53 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Being first to draft gives them that luxury but by trying to deal him before the draft tips their hand and makes his value drop. Someone who needs to sell puts the buyer in a great position. The Cards coach doesn't want him so then I truly believe that Zac isn't going to break the bank to buy someone else's trash. If they could get him for a third it might be worth taking a flyer on him.

Opposite, waiting to trade him after the draft forces their hand because if you keep him there it becomes toxic in general. Everyone knows he is for trade, what you need to do is move him now while teams who don't think guys in the draft will fall to them have that to worry about. You wait until after draft everyone gets their QB situation squared up and now you are desperate. 

[XsandOs]

I don't believe that the reverse of Walsh Aikman will happen.

So getting Rosen via trade is highly unlikely.

I don't believe all the negative opinions about him. But as a player, he looks stiff. Having watched some of his college games, I feel that he cannot improvise. Pure pocket passer who needs everything around him to occur as scripted.

Opposite of Murray in that regard. But very similar to Palmer.

[Catmandude123]

(03-04-2019, 04:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: Opposite, waiting to trade him after the draft forces their hand because if you keep him there it becomes toxic in general. Everyone knows he is for trade, what you need to do is move him now while teams who don't think guys in the draft will fall to them have that to worry about. You wait until after draft everyone gets their QB situation squared up and now you are desperate. 

If they haven't gotten their QB settled and don't have a top five pick they are basically SOL. There are only a few QB prospects this year and counting on a first year bust is not an enviable position to be in. 

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 05:05 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: If they haven't gotten their QB settled and don't have a top five pick they are basically SOL. There are only a few QB prospects this year and counting on a first year bust is not an enviable position to be in. 

Not really, there will be teams who like Lock and Jones and think they represent a future plan. Point being 100000% the Cardinals will not draft Murray if they are still holding Josh Rosen when they go on the clock night 1 of the draft. 

[McC]

(03-04-2019, 03:18 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: No doubt an OL is important, but we KNOW the key to Dalton being good is having an elite OL. With a QB that has more talent than Dalton, you feel more comfortable having an average OL, or having a bad spot at tackle or guard.

It took Dalton until last year to learn how to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield. Watch some film on Rosen. He did that right from the jump.

Please list all the years during his career that he has had an elite line in front of him. Also worth noting that Dalton's teammates have never hated him and no one has ever pointed to his personality as a detriment to his team.

And does Rosen strike anybody as the guy who will sit quietly behind another QB for a couple years?

[Catmandude123]

(03-04-2019, 05:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not really, there will be teams who like Lock and Jones and think they represent a future plan. Point being 100000% the Cardinals will not draft Murray if they are still holding Josh Rosen when they go on the clock night 1 of the draft. 

So what do you think they will realistically get for a QB that has failed to produce and his existing team gave up on him after one year, averaged less than two hundred yds / game, 14 ints in 14 games,10 fumbles. If you believe he will get more than a late second rounder for him I believe you are mistaken.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 05:26 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: So what do you think they will realistically get for a QB that has failed to produce and his existing team gave up on him after one year, averaged less than two hundred yds / game, 14 ints in 14 games,10 fumbles. If you believe he will get more than a late second rounder for him I believe you are mistaken.

You're assuming they trade him no matter what. If they can't recoup a 1st or high 2nd I don't believe they move him, meaning I don't believe they take Murray in that case. Some teams with vet QB's like San Diego, Oakland, New England, Possibly the Giants 2nd round pick. Where Rosen could go and sit for a year may be intriguing. The contract alone with potential makes him worth more than the third people keep throwing out. This is the same league where Nathan Peterman and Blaine Gabbert still find work. 

It's the hot take today, but as we get closer to the draft his value will go up not because what he is but because coaches who loved him in the draft will go back to the tape and decide they can "fix him" like they always seem to do.

Edit: Now that I think about it, pick 30 from New Orleans held by the Packers actually seems like a realistic possibility. Many people related Rodgers demeanor to be similar to Rosen. They have a history of the QB stashing and with a 2nd 1st in play they still can improve right now. I could see them sending 30 overall for Rosen and a 4th.

[t3r3e3]

(03-04-2019, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I do think they Taylor will bring in a QB at some point too.

It makes sense to do it this year, but it also doesn't make sense because of the huge list of needs we have and some like RT look likely they can only be filled through the draft. (There aren't a lot of good tackles in free agency.)

I agree with Taylor bringing in another QB at some point in the next year or two, most likely via the draft. The question is will that QB be starter material or another developmental backup? Andy is a middling talent and we’ve likely seen his ceiling. Dalton has played like crap in all of his Playoff appearances as well (passer rating in the 50’s, TD:TO ratio of 1:7). While Dalton is serviceable, his lack of elite talent makes him eminently replaceable, especially given his team-friendly contract that can be walked away from with little cap penalty. The true test of this theory will be next year and the year after, when stronger QB draft groups are available.

[t3r3e3]

(03-04-2019, 05:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: You're assuming they trade him no matter what. If they can't recoup a 1st or high 2nd I don't believe they move him, meaning I don't believe they take Murray in that case. Some teams with vet QB's like San Diego, Oakland, New England, Possibly the Giants 2nd round pick. Where Rosen could go and sit for a year may be intriguing. The contract alone with potential makes him worth more than the third people keep throwing out. This is the same league where Nathan Peterman and Blaine Gabbert still find work. 

It's the hot take today, but as we get closer to the draft his value will go up not because what he is but because coaches who loved him in the draft will go back to the tape and decide they can "fix him" like they always seem to do.

Edit: Now that I think about it, pick 30 from New Orleans held by the Packers actually seems like a realistic possibility. Many people related Rodgers demeanor to be similar to Rosen. They have a history of the QB stashing and with a 2nd 1st in play they still can improve right now. I could see them sending 30 overall for Rosen and a 4th.

Rosen with San Diego’s line and weapons sounds like a great landing point for Rosen. That said, the Chargers window to win with Rivers is likely the next two years, so they might not be willing to sacrifice a late 1st rounder or a combination of picks to acquire Rosen. The Giants, with the shell of Eli Manning, are another story altogether. Eli is a bum, and has been a bum for several seasons. The Pats make sense, especially given the sheer number of picks they can leverage.

[Older Than You Too]

Josh Rosen can play tackle or guard? No?

LOL at wasting a draft pick on something we don't need.

[Whodey614]

(03-04-2019, 05:22 PM)McC Wrote: Please list all the years during his career that he has had an elite line in front of him.  Also worth noting that Dalton's teammates have never hated him and no one has ever pointed to his personality as a detriment to his team.

And does Rosen strike anybody as the guy who will sit quietly behind another QB for a couple years?

The Bengals had a top 3 offensive line in 2014 & 15. That was a known fact back then. 2014 produced the best rushing offense since the Rudi Johnson days. Dalton's stats weren't as good in 2014 but that had more to do with Eifert and Jones being out for the season and AJ missed some time as well. They had to rely on the run more than ever before. With a healthy team, they were even better in 2015. They were top 3 in pass blocking efficiency, bottom 3 in sacks allowed and top 3 in rushing touchdowns in both seasons. Dalton hasn't been the same QB since because the line has regressed into terrible tier.

Who on Arizona hates Rosen? If you trade draft capital for Rosen, you obviously don't intend to sit him. Only Bengals fans think it's impossible that Rosen would offer more than Dalton if they were on the same team. GMs certainly don't think that, or they'd trade a 1st and 2nd for Dalton.

[Whatever]

(03-04-2019, 05:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: You're assuming they trade him no matter what. If they can't recoup a 1st or high 2nd I don't believe they move him, meaning I don't believe they take Murray in that case. Some teams with vet QB's like San Diego, Oakland, New England, Possibly the Giants 2nd round pick. Where Rosen could go and sit for a year may be intriguing. The contract alone with potential makes him worth more than the third people keep throwing out. This is the same league where Nathan Peterman and Blaine Gabbert still find work. 

It's the hot take today, but as we get closer to the draft his value will go up not because what he is but because coaches who loved him in the draft will go back to the tape and decide they can "fix him" like they always seem to do.

Edit: Now that I think about it, pick 30 from New Orleans held by the Packers actually seems like a realistic possibility. Many people related Rodgers demeanor to be similar to Rosen. They have a history of the QB stashing and with a 2nd 1st in play they still can improve right now. I could see them sending 30 overall for Rosen and a 4th.

The QB trade market this year is going to be totally out of whack.  I don't see how the Cards can ask for a 1st or high 2 for Rosen when Flacco is being dealt for a rumored 4th rounder.  Flacco has that monster contract, but he's also a SB MVP and quite a bit better than Rosen.  The 49'ers gave up a 2nd rounder for Garrapolo to come in and be a starter.  I just don't see anyone giving that for a guy that needs to sit for at least a year.

I also feel that if you're sold enough on Murray or any other QB to take them at #1 if you can move Rosen, you're sold enough to take them at #1 if you can't move Rosen.  You're basically saying Murray is that good and/or Rosen is that bad.  There will be teams willing to take Rosen for a mid round pick if you're that worried about conflict.

Of course, this can also just be a complete smokescreen and the Cards are trying to move down a few spots by putting a scare in a QB needy team.