I Shouldn't do this - but Im going to

[Hammerstripes]

I used DJ's top 50 on NFL.com.

I'd do it in a heartbeat - I'm trading away our 3rd rounder for Josh Rosen. Also, I'm trading Dalton to the Redskins for their 2nd rounder. I'm also bringing in Tannehill as a veteran backup.

Give me a stud LB and 2 O-linemen and a QB that I loved from last year and I'll be a happy man.

1. Devin White - LB, LSU. Hopefully he makes it here, as if his game tape wasn't enough, the combine soldified that he has the measuravles to be a 3 down guy.

2. Kaleb McGary - OT, Washington.

2. Dalton Risner - OL, Kansas State

3. Trade for Josh Rosen

[TheWhoDeyKid]

(03-04-2019, 01:15 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I used DJ's top 50 on NFL.com.

I'd do it in a heartbeat - I'm trading away our 3rd rounder for Josh Rosen.  Also, I'm trading Dalton to the Redskins for their 2nd rounder.  I'm also bringing in Tannehill as a veteran backup.

Give me a stud LB and 2 O-linemen and a QB that I loved from last year and I'll be a happy man.

1.  Devin White - LB, LSU.  Hopefully he makes it here, as if his game tape wasn't enough, the combine soldified that he has the measuravles to be a 3 down guy.

2.  Kaleb McGary - OT, Washington.  

2.  Dalton Risner - OL, Kansas State

3.  Trade for Josh Rosen



This would be amazing, but I can't see them giving away Rosen for a 3rd. 

[Hammerstripes]

I would agree that they shouldn't give him away for that kind of pick, but the reality is that they will lose all of their leverage if they draft Murray.

Right now the "rumor mill" has him available for a 3rd, so that's what I based this on.

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 01:20 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I would agree that they shouldn't give him away for that kind of pick, but the reality is that they will lose all of their leverage if they draft Murray.

Right now the "rumor mill" has him available for a 3rd, so that's what I based this on.

No, most are saying people are offering a 3rd. The cardinals have no interest in taking a bath on this. I still believe the only way they move Rosen is for a 1st and the only way the take Murray is if the move Rosen. Keep an eye on the Raiders pick 24/27 or the Redskins at 15. Maybe even the Chargers at pick 28.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-04-2019, 01:26 PM)Au165 Wrote: No, most are saying people are offering a 3rd. The cardinals have no interest in taking a bath on this. I still believe the only way they move Rosen is for a 1st and the only way the take Murray is if the move Rosen. Keep an eye on the Raiders pick 24/27 or the Redskins at 15. Maybe even the Chargers at pick 28.

I agree mostly, but..... the wildcard that could change the game is how much does the new coach want Murray ? And how much leverage does he have to get what he wants ?

[Au165]

(03-04-2019, 01:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree mostly, but..... the wildcard that could change the game is how much does the new coach want Murray ? And how much leverage does he have to get what he wants ?

They gave up a top 10 1st,3rd,and 5th for him. They aren't selling him off for a 3rd one year later. 

[*ochocincos*]

If the rumors are true and Rosen can be had for a 3rd rounder, you HAVE to do it.
He's only owed about $7 mill total between 2019-2021 that another team would have to pay him (guaranteed money comes out of AZ's pocket).
However, if I'm AZ, I know the above and would instead keep him as the backup (if anything) because he's only going to be an extra $7 mill over the next few seasons, which is about what a cheap backup QB would cost. And the only way I trade that away is with a 1st rounder.

[sandwedge]

I don't like this, not your draft picks, those are great, but this Rosen talk. IMO Dalton is head and shoulders above Rosen. I just don't see anything in Rosen that say's, this kid is gonna be great.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-04-2019, 03:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't like this, not your draft picks, those are great, but this Rosen talk. IMO Dalton is head and shoulders above Rosen. I just don't see anything in Rosen that say's, this kid is gonna be great.

I mean, i did like Rosen and thought he was the 2nd best QB in that draft behind Mayfield but from last year everything you say here is correct. Rosen is not better than Dalton and i don't see the Cards giving him up for a 3rd rounder. I just find this whole situation highly unlikely.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-04-2019, 03:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't like this, not your draft picks, those are great, but this Rosen talk. IMO Dalton is head and shoulders above Rosen.  I just don't see anything in Rosen that say's, this kid is gonna be great.

Carson Palmer gave his scouting report of Josh Rosen last year from OTAs...

Carson Palmer Wrote:"I saw great accuracy. I saw a lot of zip and velocity on the ball. I saw him make difficult, challenging throws all overt he field and down-the-field accuracy. He threw with great anticipation and great timing.”

Palmer also pointed out the talent around him at UCLA wasn’t elite.
“There weren’t a ton of NFL guys on his team,” he said. “It’s not like he was throwing to second- and third-round picks at receiver. He was doing it with a bunch of different guys, a couple of different tight ends and playing against NFL talent without a lot of NFL talent on his side.”
Palmer said Rosen’s ability to make throws before receivers are open and to do it accurately “is something you just don’t see, especially in today’s day and age.”
What will be Rosen’s challenge?

It won’t be the mental side. It won’t be the offense or seeing what the defense is giving him.
“You’ve got to be able to stand there in the pocket, get hit in the face and throw the football down the field,” he said. “His game is not outside the pocket. His game is not running for eight yards on third-and-seven. His game is standing in the pocket, taking hits, throwing the ball vertically, throwing the ball in holes down the sideline. . . but doing that when there’s 260 pounds coming downhill at your face is a whole different world, a whole different animal.”

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2018/05/24/carson-palmer-gives-his-scouting-report-of-josh-rosen/

So it pretty much boils down to Rosen being a really good NFL QB as long as he can stay upright, that's at least what Carson Palmer and many other scouts/analysts think of him.

Also, what will be better overall, A) Dalton, or B) Rosen + $10-15 mill put toward other players? Because one has to assume that if Rosen is acquired, Dalton won't be sticking around longer than maybe a year. Therefore, Dalton's saved cap can be put towards other players (theoretically).

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 11:40 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Carson Palmer gave his scouting report of Josh Rosen last year from OTAs...

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2018/05/24/carson-palmer-gives-his-scouting-report-of-josh-rosen/

So it pretty much boils down to Rosen being a really good NFL QB as long as he can stay upright, that's at least what Carson Palmer and many other scouts/analysts think of him.

Also, what will be better overall, A) Dalton, or B) Rosen + $10-15 mill put toward other players? Because one has to assume that if Rosen is acquired, Dalton won't be sticking around longer than maybe a year. Therefore, Dalton's saved cap can be put towards other players (theoretically).

I struggle when looking at Rosen seeing where that same team for the most part was the year before he got there (8-8) and where they were with him at the helm (3-13). They flat out were worse with Rosen then the Palmer, Gabbert, Stanton led Cardinals the previous season who by the way were without all world HB David Johnson. That concerns me to an extent, and while I get he was a rookie some of the excuses made for his horrible play weren't made for those QB's the year before. 

Of the three QB's listed from the previous year, only Gabbert took sacks at a rate higher than Rosen. It wasn't because Rosen was letting deeper routes develop either because he was last in yards per completion. The weapons from pre Rosen to the Rosen year actually improved as Kirk showed promise and as I mentioned Johnson was back even if not healthy. My issue with him is he doesn't sense pressure well and he takes a long time to read defenses. Now those things can improve, but at this point he is closer to Blaine Gabbert who was also drafted with the 10th pick overall than a top QB.

Can he be good, sure he could still develop. The reality though is plenty of top picks at QB haven't worked out in recent years. When you look at his rookie year it ranks towards the bottom more so than a lot of the guys we now call bust. Everyone wants to point to Goff, but there are plenty of other guys who had better rookie years than Rosen who never panned out. Odds aren't in his favor right now.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 12:03 PM)Au165 Wrote: I struggle when looking at Rosen seeing where that same team for the most part was the year before he got there (8-8) and where they were with him at the helm (3-13). They flat out were worse with Rosen then the Palmer, Gabbert, Stanton led Cardinals the previous season who by the way were without all world HB David Johnson. That concerns me to an extent, and while I get he was a rookie some of the excuses made for his horrible play weren't made for those QB's the year before. 

Of the three QB's listed from the previous year, only Gabbert took sacks at a rate higher than Rosen. It wasn't because Rosen was letting deeper routes develop either because he was last in yards per completion. The weapons from pre Rosen to the Rosen year actually improved as Kirk showed promise and as I mentioned Johnson was back even if not healthy. My issue with him is he doesn't sense pressure well and he takes a long time to read defenses. Now those things can improve, but at this point he is closer to Blaine Gabbert who was also drafted with the 10th pick overall than a top QB.

Can he be good, sure he could still develop. The reality though is plenty of top picks at QB haven't worked out in recent years. When you look at his rookie year it ranks towards the bottom more so than a lot of the guys we now call bust. Everyone wants to point to Goff, but there are plenty of other guys who had better rookie years than Rosen who never panned out. Odds aren't in his favor right now.

One other difference in 2017 Cardinals vs 2018 Cardinals is the coaching change. They went from Bruce Arians to Steve Wilks and new coordinators along with the switch.
Another is their OL...2017 starters = Wetzel, Boone, Shipley, Watford/Boehm, Veldheer. 2018 starters = Humphries, Iupati, Cole, Aboushi, Andre Smith. Every single OL starter was different from 2017 to 2018.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 12:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: One other difference in 2017 Cardinals vs 2018 Cardinals is the coaching change. They went from Bruce Arians to Steve Wilks and new coordinators along with the switch.
Another is their OL...2017 starters = Wetzel, Boone, Shipley, Watford/Boehm, Veldheer. 2018 starters = Humphries, Iupati, Cole, Aboushi, Andre Smith. Every single OL starter was different from 2017 to 2018.

Coaching was different, I'll give you that. Cardinals rated as the 31st O line in 2017 and 32nd in 2018. In the end I still stand by my point Rosen had a historically bad season and I think he is Christian Ponder, we have seen more Christian Ponder type QB's as of late it seems than good ones. Not sure why it's such a far leap to think the guy could be a bust after 1. Again, everyone clings to Goff but that is the outlier in terms of horrific rookie years into capable starters, and even that many think may be  mirage. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 12:41 PM)Au165 Wrote: Coaching was different, I'll give you that. Cardinals rated as the 31st O line in 2017 and 32nd in 2018. In the end I still stand by my point Rosen had a historically bad season and I think he is Christian Ponder, we have seen more Christian Ponder type QB's as of late it seems than good ones. Not sure why it's such a far leap to think the guy could be a bust after 1. Again, everyone clings to Goff but that is the outlier in terms of horrific rookie years into capable starters, and even that many think may be  mirage. 

That's definitely fair. It really comes down to going with what you know vs what you don't know. Dalton will give you solid production, but very likely will never push that elite category. Rosen was (much) more highly touted than Dalton coming out of college, so the belief is that he has a better chance at being elite than Dalton did/does. But you're right, Rosen isn't there yet and may never get there.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 12:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's definitely fair. It really comes down to going with what you know vs what you don't know. Dalton will give you solid production, but very likely will never push that elite category. Rosen was (much) more highly touted than Dalton coming out of college, so the belief is that he has a better chance at being elite than Dalton did/does. But you're right, Rosen isn't there yet and may never get there.

Blake Bortles, Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder were all highly touted, I don't care what a guy was projected to be before he got to the NFL I only care what he is while he is here. I'd rather the Bengals stay vigilant for a guy who they believe can be a star. It's fair to say if they do trade for Rosen it means they think he can be good. You'd think Taylor knows more than us playing in the same division as him? 

We will see I guess, but I just don't see it with Rosen.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 12:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: Blake Bortles, Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder were all highly touted, I don't care what a guy was projected to be before he got to the NFL I only care what he is while he is here. I'd rather the Bengals stay vigilant for a guy who they believe can be a star. It's fair to say if they do trade for Rosen it means they think he can be good. You'd think Taylor knows more than us playing in the same division as him? 

We will see I guess, but I just don't see it with Rosen.

If they believe Dalton can be a star, obviously stick with him. If they think he can just be solid, should they take a gamble on another QB if they think another QB could be a star (although may not have proven it yet)?

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 01:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If they believe Dalton can be a star, obviously stick with him. If they think he can just be solid, should they take a gamble on another QB if they think another QB could be a star (although may not have proven it yet)?

No, but Dalton is still a proven commodity Star or not. Sure another QB who can be a star is worth going for, not Rosen (Because I don't believe he is good). I'm just saying his year was historically bad. Brandon Weeden wasn't even that bad! If you told me they were going all in next year on Tua/Frohm/Herbet/etc I'd say go for it. If Rosen had all this star potential you wouldn't hear people saying he is worth a 3rd, Tyrod Taylor was traded for a 3rd. I think if he is moved it's for more than a 3rd eventually, but my point is if people believed he had all that potential we should be seeing more demand from NFL people. Starting QB's are hard to come by and to have one on the market on their first contract you should be seeing people offering a 1st plus....not a 3rd.

We are off in the weeds, so in an effort to get back on topic. I think you'd have to draft Risner before McGary to get both but I think you could get both in the 2nd.

[BenZoo2]

I would rather they address other needs and look for a qb later in this draft and/or over the next couple drafts. Way to many holes to fill


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 01:15 PM)Au165 Wrote: No, but Dalton is still a proven commodity Star or not. Sure another QB who can be a star is worth going for, not Rosen (Because I don't believe he is good). I'm just saying his year was historically bad. Brandon Weeden wasn't even that bad! If you told me they were going all in next year on Tua/Frohm/Herbet/etc I'd say go for it. If Rosen had all this star potential you wouldn't hear people saying he is worth a 3rd, Tyrod Taylor was traded for a 3rd. I think if he is moved it's for more than a 3rd eventually, but my point is if people believed he had all that potential we should be seeing more demand from NFL people. Starting QB's are hard to come by and to have one on the market on their first contract you should be seeing people offering a 1st plus....not a 3rd.

We are off in the weeds, so in an effort to get back on topic. I think you'd have to draft Risner before McGary to get both but I think you could get both in the 2nd.

A lot of the rookie QBs last year struggled. Rosen, Darnold, and Allen all only passed for low-2000's yardage, completion percentage in the 50's, and a near 1-1 TD-to-INT ratio. All could be bad, but they all went to bad teams who had mediocre-to-bad OLs and little-to-no help at WR.

As you said though, to get back on topic, I'd take Rosen over any QB in this year's draft class. If they don't trade for Rosen, I'd hope they wait until next year (or year after) to get their QB of the future. I agree that I think Risner has to be taken before McGary. Getting both would solidify the right side of the OL I think.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-04-2019, 05:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I mean, i did like Rosen and thought he was the 2nd best QB in that draft behind Mayfield but from last year everything you say here is correct. Rosen is not better than Dalton and i don't see the Cards giving him up for a 3rd rounder. I just find this whole situation highly unlikely.

Sure, at this point, but he was a top 10 pick and was highly thought of.

I think he's a better pure passer than Dalton and with a good offensive coach and the weapons we have, he could be a great NFL QB.