I guess the front office is blind to the reat of the North

[muskiesfan]

While it has been popular to talk about what the Browns are doing every year, this year is definitely a little different. They got close to a break even season last year. Through the draft they seem to have hit on the necessary pieces and are now making moves to try and take that next step. Mike Brown never attempts to take the next step. We let the right players go and re-sign the wrong players. We're always saving to extend players instead of bringing in additional upgrades to try and take the next step. We were close on a couple of occasions, but still followed the process that only Mike Brown believes will work.

People want to ask what have the Patriots or Steelers or whoever done? The first problem with that logic is those are teams that win and have won championships. Even those teams have made moves before. The Patriots brought in Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis. The Steelers who always seem to have much less cap space find ways to keep the key pieces they want to keep. Brown cries poor or lowballs and watches the players leave and the fans are left wondering why they have double the cap space of other teams, but constantly do less with it.

As some will want to point out, the Bengals have went over the cap or spent more than other teams. That's easy to do when you constantly rollover millions of dollars (increasing the amount you can spend) and frontloading contracts. Yes it's nice being able to potentially cut an under-performing player with little to no cap hit, it takes away from what can be done immediately when you pay a lot of it upfront. Signing someone to a 3 year/15 million dollar deal and paying them $10m in the first year means that's $5m less you have to spend this year. Effectively meaning you can spend your cap money and reach the floor while not really being as committed to winning and success as your counterparts.

At the end of the day, Mike Brown's way does not work. There's almost 3 decades worth of proof that it doesn't work. You can't simply rely on the draft, re-signing your own, and supplemental draft picks. Free agency is not a bad thing. It's okay to let your garbage go and it's okay to sign players who are better than what's on the roster. True, you may have to spend a little bit more and not be able to rollover $10m and save $5m for injuries or whatever, but maybe it could help push the team to a better place or help to turn the team around much quicker.

[fredtoast]

(03-13-2019, 10:42 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: Signing someone to a 3 year/15 million dollar deal and paying them $10m in the first year means that's $5m less you have to spend this year. Effectively meaning you can spend your cap money and reach the floor while not really being as committed to winning and success as your counterparts. 

This makes zero sense.  Frontloading a contract in no way means you are less committed to winning.  In fact it is ofet argued that frontloading contracts is a sign of wanting to win NOW and being able to get out of the contract easier down the road.

This is getting ridiculous.

[muskiesfan]

(03-13-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes zero sense.  Frontloading a contract in no way means you are less committed to winning.  In fact it is ofet argued that frontloading contracts is a sign of wanting to win NOW and being able to get out of the contract easier down the road.

This is getting ridiculous.

You're a smart guy. I know you know what I'm saying. If you have $40m in cap space then sign an undeserving player to a 3 year/$15m deal and give them $10m upfront, you now have $30m left to spend. Had you given that same player $5-6m upfront, you would be at $34-35m left to spend. So frontloading contracts to eat up the immediate cap can and does limit what you have available to spend. I even said it makes it easier to let go of the player later on with little to no cap hit. However, this is a team that brags about players seeing every dollar of their contract.

I'm not saying to never frontload a contract. I'm saying constantly doing that allows you to dwindle your available cap much faster. I have little to no doubt that Mike Brown prefers to give a bunch of money upfront to have the ability to cry poor much faster.

[dr tarzan]

(03-12-2019, 04:34 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While Ravens and Steelers fans are annoying, there isn't anything worse than a Browns fan when the Browns are winning. Insufferable!

I will second that...

[Jonescincy]

This offseason has been a complete disaster and anyone who doesn’t agree is completely fooling themselves. The only thing the Bengals have going for them is that 2 of the other 3 teams in the division are losing key players. Some people seem convinced that last year was an aberration for this team, it wasn’t. Now the most inexperienced coaching staff in the NFL is being given the same tools and being asked to McGyver some wins together, not a good approach. Mayfield is a leader, that much is certain. Beckham is the best receiver in this division, also certain. K. Hunt was one of the top RBs in the league last year and added to a backfield that already had an explosive back. This isnt the Browns of the past 20 years so you can shut those arguments down. This is a team that in the past year a KNOWLEGEABLE GM has been putting together via draft, trade and FA pickups. The low key play it safe Bengals have been leapfrogged by the Browns and that doesn’t look to change any time soon.

[NKURyan]

(03-14-2019, 09:55 AM)Jonescincy Wrote: This offseason has been a complete disaster and anyone who doesn’t agree is completely fooling themselves. The only thing the Bengals have going for them is that 2 of the other 3 teams in the division are losing key players. Some people seem convinced that last year was an aberration for this team, it wasn’t. Now the most inexperienced coaching staff in the NFL is being given the same tools and being asked to McGyver some wins together, not a good approach. Mayfield is a leader, that much is certain. Beckham is the best receiver in this division, also certain. K. Hunt was one of the top RBs in the league last year and added to a backfield that already had an explosive back. This isnt the Browns of the past 20 years so you can shut those arguments down. This is a team that in the past year a KNOWLEGEABLE GM has been putting together via draft, trade and FA pickups. The low key play it safe Bengals have been leapfrogged by the Browns and that doesn’t look to change any time soon.

Remember when after a decade of losing the 2003 Bengals won 8 games and everyone convinced themselves they had arrived and would own the division for years? They had a stud young QB, the best wide receiver in the division, a great running game, the hottest coach in the league, a rabid and hungry fanbase, and all the momentum in the world. How'd that turn out? They made the playoffs one time in the next 6 years.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2019, 09:55 AM)Jonescincy Wrote: This offseason has been a complete disaster and anyone who doesn’t agree is completely fooling themselves. The only thing the Bengals have going for them is that 2 of the other 3 teams in the division are losing key players. Some people seem convinced that last year was an aberration for this team, it wasn’t. Now the most inexperienced coaching staff in the NFL is being given the same tools and being asked to McGyver some wins together, not a good approach. Mayfield is a leader, that much is certain. Beckham is the best receiver in this division, also certain. K. Hunt was one of the top RBs in the league last year and added to a backfield that already had an explosive back. This isnt the Browns of the past 20 years so you can shut those arguments down. This is a team that in the past year a KNOWLEGEABLE GM has been putting together via draft, trade and FA pickups. The low key play it safe Bengals have been leapfrogged by the Browns and that doesn’t look to change any time soon.

You don't realize this because you have not been around here very long, but I could find posts almost identical to yours regarding the Browns for each of the last 5 years.  Every year people drool over how well the Browns are doing with all their extra first round picks.

The fact is the 2018 Browns had a losing record, a 30th ranked defense, and only one win against a team with a winning record last year.  They have not proven anything yet.  

I like Mayfield and few of their other players, but this offseason they have lost a Pro Bowl LB and replaced an elite OG with guy who only played 14 snaps in his rookie season last year.

[fredtoast]

(03-13-2019, 06:19 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: You're a smart guy. I know you know what I'm saying. If you have $40m in cap space then sign an undeserving player to a 3 year/$15m deal and give them $10m upfront, you now have $30m left to spend. Had you given that same player $5-6m upfront, you would be at $34-35m left to spend. So frontloading contracts to eat up the immediate cap can and does limit what you have available to spend. I even said it makes it easier to let go of the player later on with little to no cap hit. However, this is a team that brags about players seeing every dollar of their contract.

I'm not saying to never frontload a contract. I'm saying constantly doing that allows you to dwindle your available cap much faster. I have little to no doubt that Mike Brown prefers to give a bunch of money upfront to have the ability to cry poor much faster.

I am a smart guy.  I see what you are saying, and you are wrong.  Teams that people see as wanting to "win now" frontload contracts in order to bring in the best talent right away.  

And please pause for a moment and think about what you just said.  Mike Brown likes to "cry poor" so he spends MORE.  You are basically trying to prove that Mike Brown is cheap by showing how much MORE he spends.  That is the most twisted logic I have ever seen.

[BenZoo2]

(03-14-2019, 12:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have not been around here very long, but I could find posts almost identical to your regarding the Browns for each of the last 5 years.

The fact is the Browns had a losing record, a 30th ranked defense, and only one win against a team with a winning record last year.  They have not proven anything yet.  

I like Mayfield and few of their other players, but this offseason they have lost a Pro Bowl LB and replaced an elite OG with guy who only played 14 snaps in his rookie season last year.

That guard was a high second round pick who they obviously like and feel he is ready to step into a prominent role


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonescincy]

(03-14-2019, 11:59 AM)NKURyan Wrote: Remember when after a decade of losing the 2003 Bengals won 8 games and everyone convinced themselves they had arrived and would own the division for years? They had a stud young QB, the best wide receiver in the division, a great running game, the hottest coach in the league, a rabid and hungry fanbase, and all the momentum in the world. How'd that turn out? They made the playoffs one time in the next 6 years.

Yeah I don’t recall anyone saying the Bengals were going to own the division. In 2003 Palmer didn’t even play. When did Hines Ward play for the Bengals in 2003? Must have missed that. They did have a good running game but hottest coach in the league? Rabid and hungry fan base? They had SOME momentum. Talk about overselling it. Even if all of what you said was true there would still be one HUGE difference. Mayfield is a leader and the Bengals have not had that at QB since Boomer. Ok Kitna was a leader but he also had no arm.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-14-2019, 11:22 PM)Jonescincy Wrote: Yeah I don’t recall anyone saying the Bengals were going to own the division. In 2003 Palmer didn’t even play. When did Hines Ward play for the Bengals in 2003? Must have missed that. They did have a good running game but hottest coach in the league? Rabid and hungry fan base? They had SOME momentum. Talk about overselling it. Even if all of what you said was true there would still be one HUGE difference. Mayfield is a leader and the Bengals have not had that at QB since Boomer. Ok Kitna was a leader but he also had no arm.

Hines Ward was better than Chad in 2003?

Ward

95 Rec, 1163 Yds, 10 TD

Chad

90 Rec, 1355 Yds, 10 TD

[Jonescincy]

(03-14-2019, 12:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You don't realize this because you have not been around here very long, but I could find posts almost identical to yours regarding the Browns for each of the last 5 years.  Every year people drool over how well the Browns are doing with all their extra first round picks.

The fact is the 2018 Browns had a losing record, a 30th ranked defense, and only one win against a team with a winning record last year.  They have not proven anything yet.  

I like Mayfield and few of their other players, but this offseason they have lost a Pro Bowl LB and replaced an elite OG with guy who only played 14 snaps in his rookie season last year.

Really, people have been posting that? Clearly they know nothing about this game then. Not sure what there was to get excited about with them, until last year. Mayfield showed he is a straight up leader and now they’ve added a ton of talent to support him. They drafted Zeitlers replacement last year I think. They finished ahead of the Bengals, added a good DC and upgraded their offense significantly. Not saying they are SB contenders but they have made the moves to IMPROVE their team, not just stay status quo and hope they suddenly play better the next year.

[NKURyan]

(03-14-2019, 11:22 PM)Jonescincy Wrote: Yeah I don’t recall anyone saying the Bengals were going to own the division. In 2003 Palmer didn’t even play. When did Hines Ward play for the Bengals in 2003? Must have missed that. They did have a good running game but hottest coach in the league? Rabid and hungry fan base? They had SOME momentum. Talk about overselling it. Even if all of what you said was true there would still be one HUGE difference. Mayfield is a leader and the Bengals have not had that at QB since Boomer. Ok Kitna was a leader but he also had no arm.

Yeah, people were absolutely saying that. The fact that Palmer didn't even play in 2003 only fed into the hype, because they were turning it around without the aid of the #1 pick in the NFL and everyone knew he was more talented than Kitna. Marvin Lewis *was* the hottest coach in the league, having changed the fortunes of the NFL's wasteland virtually overnight. Chad Johnson was not only the best receiver in the division, but one of the best in the conference and was white hot. The fans *were* rapid and hungry after more than a decade of complete irrelevance - PBS *still* hasn't been as wild as it was during that KC game, and anyone who was there will tell you the same. They had all the momentum in the division - they finished with a better record than a Steelers team that (wrongfully) appeared to be fading (pre-Ben) and a Ravens team that was getting old. You're just pretending Carson wasn't a leader to try to make some type of point, but that's a total falsehood as well if you've ever heard any of the guys who actually played with him talk about him. I swear the amount of outright denial some people wield around here is nuts.

That team was every bit as set up for a long run at the top as today's Browns are and are the perfect proof that what's on paper doesn't always translate to what's on the field. Crown the Browns if you want, but it is by no means even remotely close to being a sure thing.

[muskiesfan]

(03-14-2019, 12:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am a smart guy.  I see what you are saying, and you are wrong.  Teams that people see as wanting to "win now" frontload contracts in order to bring in the best talent right away.  

And please pause for a moment and think about what you just said.  Mike Brown likes to "cry poor" so he spends MORE.  You are basically trying to prove that Mike Brown is cheap by showing how much MORE he spends.  That is the most twisted logic I have ever seen.

I probably left out some wording and you are probably being a little intentionally obtuse. By giving Bobby ***** Hart $7.4m this year, that's less that he has to spend on better players and can cry poor by saying we're out of cap space. I probably should've said we pay the wrong players too much, but I kind of thought that would be a given. That's my fault for not saying that.

And no, I'm not wrong. Overpaying garbage players, oversaving for injuries, oversaving for draft picks, and rolling significant money over every year (around $10m) does not show he's a willing spender.

So one more time, by paying player A $10m year 1 by frontloading instead of paying less to be able to bring more people in is how Mike Brown gets away with not using free agency to help improve the team. I know you know it and I know you get it. I also know you love to argue. Frontloading isn't always bad. I've already said that. However, overpaying someone like Hart or Webb in Year 1 is an easy way to make THIS season's cap space dwindle while doing little of substance to improve the team and then having Hobson tell everyone the money is already gone.