IF White is gone, who do you pick?

[Hammerstripes]

(03-28-2019, 10:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: Zach Brown is a really good LB.  He was released by Washington after butting heads with the coaches, but he would likely be on his best behavior on a one year prove it deal.  Not ideal, but he'd be a significant upgrade.  Brandon Marshall signed with Oakland today, so he's now off the table.  The Jets still have Darron Lee up on the trade block.  There will likely be some guys cut after the draft.

Bush is not an elite prospect.  White is frankly a bit overhyped.  If they came out last year, White would be LB4 and Bush would be LB6.  Bush isn't even really in 1st round discussion if he was in a good class like last year.  He's a 2nd round guy on tape.  He's being pushed up big boards because he had a great combine, it's a weak class, and there's a huge drop after Wilson. 

Not buying that at all.

White and Roquan Smith would have been 1 and 1a.

Bush is probably off the board after LVE.

I think the NFL has changed to the point where the traditional LB is no longer worth anything.  Base defense is now nickel or dime and LBs are just big safeties that better be able to tackle.

[McC]

(03-27-2019, 12:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: Pretty much any All Pro that wasn't a Top 3 pick was drafted later than they should have been in hindsight.  If the consensus was that Leonard was going to be that good, he wouldn't have made it out of the Top 10.  Part of the issue with him was that he played at a MEAC school and had little film against big boy competition, which made him tough to grade.  

However, the issue with Bush is that he's not that good of a prospect and there is little reason to believe he will be an All Pro.  How many 5'11" All Pro LB's can you name?  People think he's going to be this lock down cover LB that's going to eliminate pass catching TE's from the game, and that's unlikely to happen because he's going to have the same issues DB's have with the height disadvantage.  QB's don't have to adjust their throws as much to drop them in over 5'11" defenders in trail when throwing to 6'5" TE's.  Just like the QB has to be able to see over the LoS, so do the LB's so they can see ball fakes and make their reads, which is a problem for Bush.  He's undersized, makes bad reads, and he can't get off blocks and the fact that he's undersized contributes to the other two, making them more difficult to overcome.

Two off the top of my head--Zach Thomas and Sam MIlls.

[Whatever]

(03-29-2019, 11:30 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Not buying that at all.

White and Roquan Smith would have been 1 and 1a.

Bush is probably off the board after LVE.

I think the NFL has changed to the point where the traditional LB is no longer worth anything.  Base defense is now nickel or dime and LBs are just big safeties that better be able to tackle.

Tremaine Edmunds was the highest graded LB last year at 7.17. Roquan Smith was second at 6.74 and Vander Esch was 3rd at 6.25.  Devin Smith is graded 6.24.  Rashaan Evans was graded 6.10 last year.  Finally you have Bush at 6.03.

Bush was considered a late 1st/early 2nd in a bad LB class based on his film.  Then everyone started over hyping him based on the combine.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-29-2019, 01:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: Tremaine Edmunds was the highest graded LB last year at 7.17. Roquan Smith was second at 6.74 and Vander Esch was 3rd at 6.25.  Devin Smith is graded 6.24.  Rashaan Evans was graded 6.10 last year.  Finally you have Bush at 6.03.

Bush was considered a late 1st/early 2nd in a bad LB class based on his film.  Then everyone started over hyping him based on the combine.

Highest graded by who?  

It's obvious that the Pro guys didn't see that the same way, and I doubt that they would put Edmunds ahead of the other guys.

[Whatever]

(03-29-2019, 09:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's what I find interesting about Devin Bush.
Everyone calls him elite, right?
Dude had half the tackles that Devin White had last year. Bush never hit 100 tackles in a season whereas Bush exceeded that twice. Given his speed and athleticism, I would have thought Bush would have had more production than he had. I get a sense that Bush is more of a mid-1st pick that's boosted his stock from Combine performance.

Luckily, I don't think the Bengals HAVE to go LB in Rd 1 just to fill a need. A DL selection could play 50% of the defensive snaps this year given there isn't a good candidate for nickel DT (the current guys haven't cut it to this point). If Bobby Hart really is just a 1-year guarantee with a prove-it situation for years 2 and 3, I think Jonah Williams, Cody Ford, and Jawaan Taylor all should be in play too. Mike Brown wants Dalton to prove it this year, so QB could also be in play. With that said, I'm not highly confident in any of these QBs really. Haskins is probably the safest out of himself, Murray, Lock, and Jones, but only having the single year of starting does concern me. Murray I think needs to be in a particular system to shine, but we haven't seen this offense yet so I don't know if Murray will fit the system. Honestly, Will Grier is probably my QB3 after Murray and Haskins.

I think it's more of a situation where LB is weakest link and people are afraid White won't be there, so they are trying to convince themselves Bush is an elite prospect.

He had a good combine, but the production isn't there.  As you said, he's never had a 100 tackle season and he generated one turnover his entire college career.  How do draft a guy like that at 11, regardless of how fast he runs or how high he jumps?

[Whatever]

(03-29-2019, 01:53 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Highest graded by who?  

It's obvious that the Pro guys didn't see that the same way, and I doubt that they would put Edmunds ahead of the other guys.

Those are their Combine grades.  Edmunds was the 2nd LB off the board last year.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-29-2019, 02:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think it's more of a situation where LB is weakest link and people are afraid White won't be there, so they are trying to convince themselves Bush is an elite prospect.

He had a good combine, but the production isn't there.  As you said, he's never had a 100 tackle season and he generated one turnover his entire college career.  How do draft a guy like that at 11, regardless of how fast he runs or how high he jumps?

But Bush can cover and blitz great to boot, we don't have that at Linebacker.

He is a good tackler regardless if he didn't reach 100 tackles in a season. This can translate more to the Defense as a whole.

I would rather take Jawaan Taylor or Cody Ford at 11 over Bush who i would rather trade back for. There are other players i would take just the same but i don't find those positions to be near as big of a need as LB or O-line.

[Bengalstripes9]

Oliver is the best player. Have to pick him if he’s there, would assume he doesnt drop that far though

[Whatever]

(03-29-2019, 07:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: But Bush can cover and blitz great to boot, we don't have that at Linebacker.

He is a good tackler regardless if he didn't reach 100 tackles in a season. This can translate more to the Defense as a whole.

I would rather take Jawaan Taylor or Cody Ford at 11 over Bush who i would rather trade back for. There are other players i would take just the same but i don't find those positions to be near as big of a need as LB or O-line.

He's better than anybody we currently have in coverage, but Jefferson is as good or better as a blitzer.  He racked up more sacks with less talent on the DL in front of him.

He's not a good tackler.  Even in highlight films, he has trouble getting guys on the ground quickly.  Basically, he wraps up and hopes help gets there or tries to work behind them and get a waistlock to do some James Harrison esque slam.  He also can't get get off blocks, which is a big reason his tackle numbers are so low.

My personal feeling is that if you're drafting BPA, he's nowhere close.  If you're drafting based primarily on need, you can get a much better OT than him and OT is a bigger need.  There are young LB's that can still develop on the roster.  There's nobody at T.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2019, 01:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Say Murray, Haskins, and Lock are gone. White is gone.

Who do you take? These are the guys to choose from:

Devin Bush
TJ Hockenson
Jawaan Taylor
Ed Oliver
Jonah Williams
DK Metcalf
Marquise Brown
Cody Ford

I think the Bengals would take Taylor or Ed Oliver, but I might consider trading back with a team that needs a QB to gain an additional 2nd rounder and get Bush or Dexter Lawrence (DT) later in Rd 1.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-30-2019, 03:26 AM)Whatever Wrote: He's better than anybody we currently have in coverage, but Jefferson is as good or better as a blitzer.  He racked up more sacks with less talent on the DL in front of him.

He's not a good tackler.  Even in highlight films, he has trouble getting guys on the ground quickly.  Basically, he wraps up and hopes help gets there or tries to work behind them and get a waistlock to do some James Harrison esque slam.  He also can't get get off blocks, which is a big reason his tackle numbers are so low.

My personal feeling is that if you're drafting BPA, he's nowhere close.  If you're drafting based primarily on need, you can get a much better OT than him and OT is a bigger need.  There are young LB's that can still develop on the roster.  There's nobody at T.

Yeah, still have high hopes for Jefferson especially with a new LB coach. I need to watch more of Bush and watch specifically his tackling, cause if what you say here is true i don't like it. Need our LB's to tackle well, this was one of our biggest problems on Defense last year. Agreed on OT, need to get a good one. JaWaan Taylor is my favorite pick now even above White.

I am liking David Long Jr in the 3rd if he can cover, Risner or Lindstrom in the 2nd more and more.

[Bengalstripes9]

Yeah, id take oliver to have a dominant duo at DT to rush up the middle and attack offenses. Thats what the patriots did in the super bowl, and rams as well. When they pass the ball so well in this league—and get rid of the ball so quickly—you have to get to the passer as quickly as possible: up the gut. Then i would draft a linebacker or offensive tackle in round two.

I doubt we’ll get the opportunity to draft oliver—actually kinda thinking the raiders might go for him as a paul guenther pick. But if we had 2 dominant defensive tackles we’d have a chance on defense. If our secondary could hold up for 5 seconds, and we got home at 2 seconds to 7 seconds consistently, we’d have a better chance of getting off the field. I think this could give us a huge leg up on defense—and we need it.
Id be happy with white at linebacker too, but i dont think either White or Oliver are there when we pick. If both are gone, Maybe theres a really good edge rusher—if not, id be happy to take hockenson. Eifert got hurt on the kind of route hockenson excels at. This would be a really good way to round out our te group. Use eifert down the field, hockenson at the line of scrimmage along with mixon and bernard. I dont know much about these offensive tackles but it doesn’t sound like theres a clear favorite and we already invested a lot in the guys we have. That being said, if they drafted a tackle in the first id hope to be convinced later it was a good pick. If we could draft a consistent pass and run blocker id be very happy. But i think oliver would be my pick at this point (provided he’s available). with white my second choice.

[OSUfan]

I pick Jawaan Taylor even if White is still there.

[Mobster]

Every scout I've heard says Bush has better tape than White. The reason he wasnt predicted as high in the draft originally is because there were questions about his athleticism. Those were all answered at the combine so, so now he's right up there with White. It's a coin flip between the two of them. Bush maybe gets the nod since he is more instinctive at this point

[Au165]

Bush is visiting Cincinnati today per Schefter.

[samhain]

Really tough call for me. I'd probably go Oliver or Jonah here. Can't go wrong with either guy. I have practically zero faith in our o-line and feel like at the very least, Jonah could become a very good RT quickly. We need good young linemen that can cement the position group badly.

Oliver because he's probably the best player available. Passing downs would be a nightmare with Atkins and Oliver on the field together.

I'd take Hockenson as a consolation prize, because he seems like a guy who's got very little chance of being a bust.

Put a gun to my head and I probably take Oliver. I hate the o-line, but the D was the worst in the league. If they can open the draft with Ed Oliver and get Vosean Joseph or Mack Wilson in round 2, then I'm pretty satisfied with it.

[shanebo]

Just posted something similar in another thread:

I would take advantage of the strong DT/pass rusher class ... Bosa, Williams, Allen, Oliver, Wilkins, Sweat, Gary, Ferrell, and maybe even Burns are all potential top-5 picks in an ordinary year, and at least one will drop to us at 11. Any one of these guys upgrades a huge weakness on our team. Admittedly, Bosa, Williams and Allen will almost certainly be gone, and I don't love Gary or Burns. But I'd be all about Oliver, Wilkins, Sweat or Ferrell (even over White, I think).

Next would be OTs Taylor or Williams. Nice players in a position of need, but I don't see either as a franchise LT, and I doubt they sniff the top-10 in an ordinary year. Taylor is a starting RT in the NFL, but I have doubts about Williams.

After that I'd try to trade down. I really like Hock, but I don't think he (or any TE) helps us enough to justify grabbing him at 11. Bush I think is a nice player in a position of need, but a little overrated. Late first/early second rounder in a standard year.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-03-2019, 10:53 AM)shanebo Wrote: Just posted something similar in another thread:

I would take advantage of the strong DT/pass rusher class ... Bosa, Williams, Allen, Oliver, Wilkins, Sweat, Gary, Ferrell, and maybe even Burns are all potential top-5 picks in an ordinary year, and at least one will drop to us at 11. Any one of these guys upgrades a huge weakness on our team.  Admittedly, Bosa, Williams and Allen will almost certainly be gone, and I don't love Gary or Burns.  But I'd be all about Oliver, Wilkins, Sweat or Ferrell (even over White, I think).

Next would be OTs Taylor or Williams.  Nice players in a position of need, but I don't see either as a franchise LT, and I doubt they sniff the top-10 in an ordinary year.  Taylor is a starting RT in the NFL, but I have doubts about Williams.

After that I'd try to trade down.  I really like Hock, but I don't think he (or any TE) helps us enough to justify grabbing him at 11.  Bush I think is a nice player in a position of need, but a little overrated.  Late first/early second rounder in a standard year.

This pretty much is an ordinary year.  Last year the top tackle off the board was McGlinchey.  Williams and Taylor are better overall prospects.

[shanebo]

(04-03-2019, 11:56 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: This pretty much is an ordinary year.  Last year the top tackle off the board was McGlinchey.  Williams and Taylor are better overall prospects.

The last two years were the weakest OT classes of the decade.  This year is deeper than last year, but similar in terms of talent at the top.  Arguably the best prospect is a RT (Taylor/McGlinchey), second best is projected to be better suited as a G (Williams/Wynn), and third best is more of a project (Dillard/Miller).  In terms of pure talent/ability, without regard to position, they're all generally in the 12-20 range (or lower, in Dillard's case).  But some desperate, OT-needy teams will likely take them much higher, like they did last year with McGlinchey and Miller.  I'd prefer to take a more talented D-lineman, since that's also a position of need for us.  

[OSUfan]

(04-03-2019, 12:57 PM)shanebo Wrote: The last two years were the weakest OT classes of the decade.  This year is deeper than last year, but similar in terms of talent at the top.  Arguably the best prospect is a RT (Taylor/McGlinchey), second best is projected to be better suited as a G (Williams/Wynn), and third best is more of a project (Dillard/Miller).  In terms of pure talent/ability, without regard to position, they're all generally in the 12-20 range (or lower, in Dillard's case).  But some desperate, OT-needy teams will likely take them much higher, like they did last year with McGlinchey and Miller.  I'd prefer to take a more talented D-lineman, since that's also a position of need for us.  

Who cares if the top OT is projected as a RT? You do realize the NFL rushing game has dramatically changed. You also know which side Von Miller is coming from correct. I would take Taylor or Jonah Williams at #11 in a heartbeat. Would you say Willie Anderson was worthy of a top 10 selection?