Extend AJ Green and/or Tyler Boyd?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-10-2019, 10:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: His antics were cute for a while, then they became an annoyance.

There was never any reports of him being a disruption (other than maybe punching Hue and if he did good for him) or that his teammates didn’t like him. I wasn’t crazy about “Ochocinnco” but I will again maintain it wasn’t the same as guys like Brown or OBJ as far as actually causing problems with the team.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-10-2019, 11:07 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There was never any reports of him being a disruption (other than maybe punching Hue and if he did good for him) or that his teammates didn’t like him. I wasn’t crazy about “Ochocinnco” but I will again maintain it wasn’t the same as guys like Brown or OBJ as far as actually causing problems with the team.

I never claimed that his stunts were disruptive to the team.  You stated that they were all in good fun, and I expressed my opinion that they became an annoyance, after a while.

[Catmandude123]

Everyone will agree that AJ should be a Life long Bengal. He has earned that. The same people wanted Marvin gone and want to win a playoff game. When you have your leg in a trap do you wait for someone to come along and save you or do you take out your pocket knife out and save yourself? The bottom line is you can't change the team without changes. Lets hope that Zac has a better vision for this team than being a middle of the pack also ran even if it means doing unorthodox things we don't agree with.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-10-2019, 09:54 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Never forget he had a QB who could stretch the field. Never forget he left and couldn't even get on the field with the Pats. Never forget he was a total A-hole causing team problems. If AJ was drafted by a team with a accurate deep ball throwing QB he would probably be talked about as one of the GOAT receivers. Chad has had 56 more starts and only 2000 more yards than AJ. All AJ has to do is average 40 yards/ game to tie. So tell me again how Chad is the greatest Bengal wide out.

When he went to the Pats, he was 33. A lot of WRs drop off then. He was on a 3-year decline to end his career.

- - - - - - - - -

About accurate deep ball throwing...

Most TDs on deep passes (20+ yards in air): Brees 15, Foles, 14, Dalton 14

— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) December 31, 2013

.@Bengals QB Andy Dalton recorded the sixth-highest adjusted completion percentage (47.3) on deep throws (20+ yards in air) last season.

— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) June 28, 2016

It's been proven again and again that (except the last few years when the OL has been atrocious and couldn't block even 2.5 seconds) that Dalton is actually a pretty good deep passer. Repeating that he isn't more often doesn't make it less false. People remember all the misses, and also don't realize that deep passes are a low completion % throw. If QBs could do it regularly then that's all they would do and we'd have NBA score level games.

- - - - - - - - - -

As for Chad with 56 more starts and "only" 2000 more yards, everyone knows you can't compare receiving yards between eras straight up 1:1 like that. That's why I showed Chad's rankings in the league instead.

For example, between 2003-2007 there were only 21 seasons of 4,000+ passing yards. That number in 2011-2015? 53 4,000+ yard seasons and 6 5,000+ yard seasons.

Think about that. You're trying to compare direct numbers 1:1 between a time when there wasn't nearly as many yards being thrown. I mean, that's an increase of 150%. Heck, in 2003 and 2005, there were only TWO people each year that threw for 4,000 yards.

Then you realize that Chad was putting up those numbers while playing in the toughest defensive division in football (which the AFCN hasn't been for years).

Look at the yardage rankings Chad had from before in '03-'07: 4th, 6th, 3rd, 1st, and 3rd
(Yeah, he was 4th in '03 even with JON KITNA as his QB.)
Now look at the yardage rankings AJ has from '11-'15: 17th, 10th, 5th, 20th, and 8th

That's their best stretches of football, each, and while AJ has been really good, Chad was consistently at the top. It's not really a comparison. It's why while AJ has a bunch of Pro Bowls, he's never been a 1st Team All-Pro, while Chad had 3 straight.


So here's me, again, telling you Chad is the greatest Bengals wideout.

[Yojimbo]

I’d like to keep both, but Father Time is closer to catching Green than Boyd. So, if only one gets extended, I have to go with the ascending player and not the descending player.

[Catmandude123]

(04-10-2019, 11:30 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: When he went to the Pats, he was 33. A lot of WRs drop off then. He was on a 3-year decline to end his career.

- - - - - - - - -

About accurate deep ball throwing...

Most TDs on deep passes (20+ yards in air): Brees 15, Foles, 14, Dalton 14

— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) December 31, 2013

.@Bengals QB Andy Dalton recorded the sixth-highest adjusted completion percentage (47.3) on deep throws (20+ yards in air) last season.

— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) June 28, 2016

It's been proven again and again that (except the last few years when the OL has been atrocious and couldn't block even 2.5 seconds) that Dalton is actually a pretty good deep passer. Repeating that he isn't more often doesn't make it less false. People remember all the misses, and also don't realize that deep passes are a low completion % throw. If QBs could do it regularly then that's all they would do and we'd have NBA score level games.

- - - - - - - - - -

As for Chad with 56 more starts and "only" 2000 more yards, everyone knows you can't compare receiving yards between eras straight up 1:1 like that. That's why I showed Chad's rankings in the league instead.

For example, between 2003-2007 there were only 21 seasons of 4,000+ passing yards. That number in 2011-2015? 53 4,000+ yard seasons and 6 5,000+ yard seasons.

Think about that. You're trying to compare direct numbers 1:1 between a time when there wasn't nearly as many yards being thrown. I mean, that's an increase of 150%. Heck, in 2003 and 2005, there were only TWO people each year that threw for 4,000 yards.

Then you realize that Chad was putting up those numbers while playing in the toughest defensive division in football (which the AFCN hasn't been for years).

Look at the yardage rankings Chad had from before in '03-'07: 4th, 6th, 3rd, 1st, and 3rd  
(Yeah, he was 4th in '03 even with JON KITNA as his QB.)
Now look at the yardage rankings AJ has from '11-'15: 17th, 10th, 5th, 20th, and 8th

That's their best stretches of football, each, and while AJ has been really good, Chad was consistently at the top. It's not really a comparison. It's why while AJ has a bunch of Pro Bowls, he's never been a 1st Team All-Pro, while Chad had 3 straight.


So here's me, again, telling you Chad is the greatest Bengals wideout.

Andy's longest TD was 49 yards last year. Do you even watch the Bengals play? The long completions are usually because AJ adjusts to what is usually over thrown balls. AJ makes Dalton better not the other way around. You call me out for stats from the past while you use them to support yours. You name players like Lewis Reed and Polamalu when they didn't cover him. You tout the BROWNS defense when they finished out of the cellar once in the years you cited. Anybody who follows this team knows that Palmer> Dalton and that the teams Chad played with had much more talent and a much better total offense.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-10-2019, 03:28 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Andy's longest TD was 49 yards last year. Do you even watch the Bengals play? The long completions are usually because AJ adjusts to what is usually over thrown balls. AJ makes Dalton better not the other way around. You call me out for stats from the past while you use them to support yours. You name players like Lewis Reed and Polamalu when they didn't cover him. You tout the BROWNS defense when they finished out of the cellar once in the years you cited. Anybody who follows this team knows that Palmer> Dalton and that the teams Chad played with had much more talent and a much better total offense.

I specifically said the last few years where there's no OL, he hasn't been good at the deep ball because there is no time. At least read a post before you reply to it. Nobody can throw the deep ball without time. You need time for players to actually get downfield.

The long completions for Chad were usually him making some outstanding circus toe-tap on the sideline, or throwing out some great moves and getting that YAC. You act like all great WRs don't make their QBs better and Palmer is somehow an exception? Chad was great even with Jon Kitna as his QB.

I called you out for comparing PLAYERS from different eras with COUNTING stats. I compared the league as an era versus the league as an era, and rankings versus rankings. It doesn't matter what era you are talking about, 1st will be 1st, 10th will be 10th. That's why it is something that is actually able to be compared over eras opposed to just flat receiving yards which vastly varies over time as rule changes make passing easier.

What does the Browns record matter when they were a top passing defense? A top passing defense is a top passing defense regardless if they were 0-16 or 16-0. Chad had to play 3 top passing defenses, twice a year each, and still was great.

- - - - - - - -

Anyone who follows this team wouldn't know that the teams Chad played with had more talent, because it's just not true.

2003-2007 Pro Bowlers (minus Chad)...
2003: Willie Anderson
2004: Willie Anderson, Rudi Johnson, Tory James
2005: Willie Anderson, Carson Palmer, Deltha O'Neil, Shayne Graham
2006: Willie Anderson, Carson Palmer
2007: TJ Houshmandzadeh
(Only 1 non-Chad 1st Team All-Pro in those 5 years, Willie Anderson.)

2011-2015 Pro Bowlers (minus AJ)...
2011: Geno Atkins, Andy Dalton, Jermaine Gresham
2012: Geno Atkins, Jermaine Gresham, Andrew Whitworth
2013: Vontaze Burfict
2014: Geno Atkins, Andy Dalton, Kevin Huber
2015: Geno Atkins, Tyler Eifert, Reggie Nelson, Cedric Peerman, Andrew Whitworth
(3 non-AJ 1st Team All-Pros in those 5 years, Geno Atkins, Andrew Whitworth, Adam Jones.)


So there goes that "Chad had a more talented team around him" argument, too. AJ played with a QB who had just as many Pro Bowls as Chad did, but AJ had the advantage of playing with TWO Pro Bowl TEs to Chad's one time Pro Bowl WR, and AJ also had an elite defense to back him up.

If Chad got to play these soft AFCN defenses, with modern NFL rules about touching and hitting WRs, the guy would be running wild. He was busy leaking his brains from headhunting elite passing defenses and still was consistently at the top.

Just because he left ugly, doesn't mean you should forget who he was and how great he played.

[NKURyan]

(04-10-2019, 05:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I specifically said the last few years where there's no OL, he hasn't been good at the deep ball because there is no time. At least read a post before you reply to it. Nobody can throw the deep ball without time. You need time for players to actually get downfield.

The long completions for Chad were usually him making some outstanding circus toe-tap on the sideline, or throwing out some great moves and getting that YAC. You act like all great WRs don't make their QBs better and Palmer is somehow an exception? Chad was great even with Jon Kitna as his QB.

I called you out for comparing PLAYERS from different eras with COUNTING stats. I compared the league as an era versus the league as an era, and rankings versus rankings. It doesn't matter what era you are talking about, 1st will be 1st, 10th will be 10th. That's why it is something that is actually able to be compared over eras opposed to just flat receiving yards which vastly varies over time as rule changes make passing easier.

What does the Browns record matter when they were a top passing defense? A top passing defense is a top passing defense regardless if they were 0-16 or 16-0. Chad had to play 3 top passing defenses, twice a year each, and still was great.

- - - - - - - -

Anyone who follows this team wouldn't know that the teams Chad played with had more talent, because it's just not true.

2003-2007 Pro Bowlers (minus Chad)...
2003: Willie Anderson
2004: Willie Anderson, Rudi Johnson, Tory James
2005: Willie Anderson, Carson Palmer, Deltha O'Neil, Shayne Graham
2006: Willie Anderson, Carson Palmer
2007: TJ Houshmandzadeh
(Only 1 non-Chad 1st Team All-Pro in those 5 years, Willie Anderson.)

2011-2015 Pro Bowlers (minus AJ)...
2011: Geno Atkins, Andy Dalton, Jermaine Gresham
2012: Geno Atkins, Jermaine Gresham, Andrew Whitworth
2013: Vontaze Burfict
2014: Geno Atkins, Andy Dalton, Kevin Huber
2015: Geno Atkins, Tyler Eifert, Reggie Nelson, Cedric Peerman, Andrew Whitworth
(3 non-AJ 1st Team All-Pros in those 5 years, Geno Atkins, Andrew Whitworth, Adam Jones.)


So there goes that "Chad had a more talented team around him" argument, too. AJ played with a QB who had just as many Pro Bowls as Chad did, but AJ had the advantage of playing with TWO Pro Bowl TEs to Chad's one time Pro Bowl WR, and AJ also had an elite defense to back him up.

If Chad got to play these soft AFCN defenses, with modern NFL rules about touching and hitting WRs, the guy would be running wild. He was busy leaking his brains from headhunting elite passing defenses and still was consistently at the top.

Just because he left ugly, doesn't mean you should forget who he was and how great he played.

Game. Set. Match.

[Bryan]

It's crazy how people want to discount Chad's accomplishments here. I know he pissed a lot of people off when he said playing in New England was like being in heaven but come on. Get over it. I love AJ and if he stays a Bengal he'll pass all of Chad's numbers(assuming he stays healthy). But stop tearing down Chad to build up AJ. And stop tearing down AJ for Chad. They're both fantastic Bengals and have meant a lot to their respective era's.(Chad in the 00's and AJ in the 10's)

[Catmandude123]

(04-10-2019, 07:12 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Game. Set. Match.

Another one who thinks that having A 1450 yard rusher ,slot receiver  with 1000 yd seasons doesn't help a receiver. The safeties he bragged about were at the line trying to stop the run not covering Chad. If you believe that Palmer wasn't heads above Dalton you too are delusional. BTW Dalton went to the pro bowl because the other QBs didn't want to go.

[NKURyan]

(04-10-2019, 08:40 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Another one who thinks that having A 1450 yard rusher ,slot receiver  with 1000 yd seasons doesn't help a receiver. The safeties he bragged about were at the line trying to stop the run not covering Chad. If you believe that Palmer wasn't heads above Dalton you too are delusional. BTW Dalton went to the pro bowl because the other QBs didn't want to go.

Ignore every counterpoint thrown at you by TheLeonardLeap and target someone else, I see. Ok, I'll play.

Andy Dalton *is* a better Bengals QB than Carson Palmer. Andy had a better record, more playoff appearances, averaged more TDs per season, less INTs per season, had a higher yards per completion, higher yards per game, and a higher QB rating, and did it against tougher schedules than Carson ever faced. Andy also has only 2 less come-from-behind victories than Carson, and Andy's played 6 less seasons. Andy did get some of those pro bowl trips because others said no, but he also sat it out in 2015 when he absolutely earned his place there, so meh. Carson at his best was *probably* better than Andy at his best, but we only got Carson at his best for 2 years.

As for Chad/AJ, they both had some pretty good running backs and slot receivers playing with them over the years. I don't know that either guy gets the advantage over the other there. Calling Chad an a-hole is a stretch - dude used to invite his social media followers (ie, his fans) out to impromptu dinner gatherings where he paid for everything and he once ran a footrace against a friggin' horse for charity.

Oh, and Ed Reed had double digit INTs - literally one sixth of his career INTs - against the Bengals, so he must've been covering somebody back there.

[Nicomo Cosca]

You will not find many non-Bengals fans that agree Dalton is better than Palmer.

But I know I’m in the minority on this board when it comes to ranking those two.

[Catmandude123]

(04-10-2019, 11:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You will not find many non-Bengals fans that agree Dalton is better than Palmer.

But I know I’m in the minority on this board when it comes to ranking those two.

Palmer regressed after the elbow surgery but he was comparable to Dalton even then. 

[sandwedge]

(04-10-2019, 03:28 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Andy's longest TD was 49 yards last year. Do you even watch the Bengals play? The long completions are usually because AJ adjusts to what is usually over thrown balls. AJ makes Dalton better not the other way around. You call me out for stats from the past while you use them to support yours. You name players like Lewis Reed and Polamalu when they didn't cover him. You tout the BROWNS defense when they finished out of the cellar once in the years you cited. Anybody who follows this team knows that Palmer> Dalton and that the teams Chad played with had much more talent and a much better total offense.

Complete BS

[NKURyan]

(04-11-2019, 07:00 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Palmer regressed after the elbow surgery but he was comparable to Dalton even then. 

You've moved the goalposts from "heads above Dalton" to "comparable to Dalton" already.

Compare Carson's best season (2005, before the elbow surgery) to Andy's (2015) - they averaged the same # of TD's per game (2), Andy averaged less INTs per game, Andy had a higher yards per catch, more yards per game, posted a higher quarterback rating, and had a better record, and you could argue that Carson had better weapons (I'll take Housh, Henry, and Rudi over Jones, Sanu, and Hill any day) and a better offensive line.

I'll be honest, I would've thought Carson at his best was better than Andy at his best, but the numbers don't bear it out. He's certainly not "heads above", and you certainly don't have to be "delusional" to take a look at the actual numbers.

[sandwedge]

(04-11-2019, 12:40 PM)NKURyan Wrote: You've moved the goalposts from "heads above Dalton" to "comparable to Dalton" already.

Compare Carson's best season (2005, before the elbow surgery) to Andy's (2015) - they averaged the same # of TD's per game (2), Andy averaged less INTs per game, Andy had a higher yards per catch, more yards per game, posted a higher quarterback rating, and had a better record, and you could argue that Carson had better weapons (I'll take Housh, Henry, and Rudi over Jones, Sanu, and Hill any day) and a better offensive line.

I'll be honest, I would've thought Carson at his best was better than Andy at his best, but the numbers don't bear it out. He's certainly not "heads above", and you certainly don't have to be "delusional" to take a look at the actual numbers.

Thank you

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2019, 12:40 PM)NKURyan Wrote: You've moved the goalposts from "heads above Dalton" to "comparable to Dalton" already.

Compare Carson's best season (2005, before the elbow surgery) to Andy's (2015) - they averaged the same # of TD's per game (2), Andy averaged less INTs per game, Andy had a higher yards per catch, more yards per game, posted a higher quarterback rating, and had a better record, and you could argue that Carson had better weapons (I'll take Housh, Henry, and Rudi over Jones, Sanu, and Hill any day) and a better offensive line.

I'll be honest, I would've thought Carson at his best was better than Andy at his best, but the numbers don't bear it out. He's certainly not "heads above", and you certainly don't have to be "delusional" to take a look at the actual numbers.

How different the league was in 05 compared to 15 shouldn’t be overlooked. Much more pass friendly rules by 15. And unfortunately Dalton didn’t even do it for an entire season in 15. So for me Palmer (05)>Dalton (15).

[XsandOs]

(04-10-2019, 11:10 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I never claimed that his stunts were disruptive to the team.  You stated that they were all in good fun, and I expressed my opinion that they became an annoyance, after a while.

His mind was further poisoned by TO. That was a huge mistake by Brown.

TO also got into Palmer's head.

[Bengal Dude]

Sterling Shepard of the Giants just signed an extension for 4 years $41 million with $23.5 million guaranteed.There's the layout for a Boyd extension.

[yang]

(04-12-2019, 12:37 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Sterling Shepard of the Giants just signed an extension for 4 years $41 million with $23.5 million guaranteed.There's the layout for a Boyd extension.

Pretty much what I mentioned elsewhere here today, about $10 mil a year. Boyd is only getting about 1 million now so he would jump on it.