Instant Reaction Grade

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Mel Kiper gave out only one A and that was to Indianapolis.

Quote:Cincinnati Bengals: A-
Top needs: Linebacker, offensive line, quarterback

It's tough to know what to think about the Bengals in 2019. While longtime coach Marvin Lewis is gone and Zac Taylor is now in charge, Mike Brown still runs things. That means the team is going to build through the draft and not worry much about free agency. In fact, Cincinnati didn't make many notable moves, other than parting ways with Vontaze Burfict and re-signing its own guys. After a 6-10 finish last season, is this team better?

This is not a sexy class, but it's solid throughout. Jonah Williams (No. 11) is a no-brainer immediate starter, either at guard or tackle. Germaine Pratt (No. 72) is a converted safety who will likely end up at outside linebacker in Cincy's 4-3. The versatility makes it good value. I didn't love Ryan Finley's tape as much as Todd McShay -- he gave Finley a second-round grade -- but Andy Dalton shouldn't be locked in long term, so this is another option for Taylor if Dalton underwhelms. To get Finley at No. 104 is solid.

Drew Sample (No. 52) is a really good blocking tight end, but even he didn't expect to go in the second round. That was high with more complete tight ends available. Renell Wren (No. 125) had an up-and-down career for the Sun Devils, but he impressed at the Senior Bowl and has some intriguing athletic traits. I'm intrigued by the Day 3 running backs with Trayveon Williams (No. 182) and Rodney Anderson (No. 211). Anderson is one of the most talented backs in the class, but he simply couldn't stay on the field. Williams is going to help spell Joe Mixon in the receiving game. Jordan Brown (No. 223) is a good corner for the seventh round.

Williams and Sample are the only surefire early starters, but there's some upside with Finley and the Day 3 running backs. This group will help Taylor navigate his first year on the job.

[Luvnit2]

(04-27-2019, 09:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: From a pure talent upgrade perspective and new starters here's my view on grading this draft.

Pretty much you need at least two starters from a draft. Three new starters and you are doing good. Four new starters and it's a really good draft.

Jonah Williams should wrestle the RT spot away from Hart. That's one upgraded starter.

Is anyone else an upgraded starter?

My Instant Reaction Grade is a C because I don't see more than two guys wrestling away a starting job from the existing talent.

For me a 2nd round pick should be expected to be starter and Sample isn't, at least not this year.

Pratt and Jordan are probably going to be the next best options at starting this season and neither is certain.


Furthermore, the team completely ignored the fact that after Green and Boyd, there are no reliable WRs and both Green and Boyd are entering the final year of their current deals. There were productive WRs available.

Interesting on how you derive at a successful draft.

Mine is a bit different.
2 starters and 7 new on the roster to me is an "A+" 

2 starters and 6 new to roster is a "B+"
1 starter, but 3 others play significantly is a B with 6 making the roster

A "C" or worse is no potential starters and 5 or less roster spots

So after further review, I give this a B+
Starters - Williams and 2 guys role play starters in Pratt and Sample and I see at least 7 making the roster

[BengalChris]

(04-28-2019, 07:30 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Interesting on how you derive at a successful draft.

Mine is a bit different.
2 starters and 7 new on the roster to me is an "A+" 

2 starters and 6 new to roster is a "B+"
1 starter, but 3 others play significantly is a B with 6 making the roster

A "C" or worse is no potential starters and 5 or less roster spots

So after further review, I give this a B+
Starters - Williams and 2 guys role play starters in Pratt and Sample and I see at least 7 making the roster

There has to be an upgrade in talent not just cheaper bodies, otherwise nothing improves. And we've seen such drafts.

I didn't really think about the number of players making the roster and possibly could have.

We really won't know how many new starters there will be the end of the year or after two or three years.

Presently I see two new starters this year, which is what you need to get from a draft just to stay even, hence a C for two new starters. There may end up being more.

Take 2015, as an example. There were zero real starters from that draft class and look at how much that set the team back. It was an F-.

[Luvnit2]

(04-28-2019, 08:15 AM)BengalChris Wrote: There has to be an upgrade in talent not just cheaper bodies, otherwise nothing improves. And we've seen such drafts.

I didn't really think about the number of players making the roster and possibly could have.

We really won't know how many new starters there will be the end of the year or after two or three years.

Presently I see two new starters this year, which is what you need to get from a draft just to stay even, hence a C for two new starters. There may end up being more.

Take 2015, as an example. There were zero real starters from that draft class and look at how much that set the team back. It was an F-.

I don't disagree, there may be more starters in 2 to 3 years, my draft grade though is on immediate starters (contribution) and why I include roster spots, the more that make the team, the better shot at more starters down the road.

Do you evaluate the Steeler's (or others) draft factoring A. Brown leaving since the Steeler's got draft picks for him? If so, do you rank them worse grabbing a rookie WR to replace AB's huge contract and production? I do use it so in my mind Steeler's had a very bad draft. I see one starter in Bush because like you I don't count the WR to replace the better Brown since it is a downgrade, not an upgrade.

I think many teams will not have 2 starters in 2019 from this draft. I don't see Browns with 2 starters or Falcons to name 2. It is not easy drafting 2 projected day 1 starters unless you have multiple 1st and or 2nd round picks. In my mind, by round 3 things can get dicey with starting NFL talent as rookies.

[BengalChris]

(04-28-2019, 08:27 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't disagree, there may be more starters in 2 to 3 years, my draft grade though is on immediate starters (contribution) and why I include roster spots, the more that make the team, the better shot at more starters down the road.

Do you evaluate the Steeler's (or others) draft factoring A. Brown leaving since the Steeler's got draft picks for him? If so, do you rank them worse grabbing a rookie WR to replace AB's huge contract and production? I do use it so in my mind Steeler's had a very bad draft. I see one starter in Bush because like you I don't count the WR to replace the better Brown since it is a downgrade, not an upgrade.

I think many teams will not have 2 starters in 2019 from this draft. I don't see Browns with 2 starters or Falcons to name 2. It is not easy drafting 2 projected day 1 starters unless you have multiple 1st and or 2nd round picks. In my mind, by round 3 things can get dicey with starting NFL talent as rookies.

I didn't pay any attention to the Browns or Steelers. I only know that the Steelers moved ahead of the Bengals to grab Bush.

Back to the Bengals draft. Jordan is an upgrade to our backup guards and may even be better than Miller. That is worth something for sure.

Backup QB and backup RB have both improved. That's worth something, especially after last year.

 

[yang]

(04-27-2019, 09:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: From a pure talent upgrade perspective and new starters here's my view on grading this draft.

Pretty much you need at least two starters from a draft. Three new starters and you are doing good. Four new starters and it's a really good draft.

Jonah Williams should wrestle the RT spot away from Hart. That's one upgraded starter.

Is anyone else an upgraded starter?

My Instant Reaction Grade is a C because I don't see more than two guys wrestling away a starting job from the existing talent.

For me a 2nd round pick should be expected to be starter and Sample isn't, at least not this year.

Pratt and Jordan are probably going to be the next best options at starting this season and neither is certain.


Furthermore, the team completely ignored the fact that after Green and Boyd, there are no reliable WRs and both Green and Boyd are entering the final year of their current deals. There were productive WRs available.

Yeah, compare it to Pittsburgh who went and got two immediate starters on defense with all pro capability along with a starting WR and a TE And RB that will contribute in their first 5 picks and that is why I have to give it a D.

I do think Pratt will start, but as a WLB and come out on passing downs. He’s more run protection. Which is okay, we suck at it.

Williams might end up at guard which would suck to spend that high a pick on but you hope he is really good. Just seems smallish to be an all pro tackle. Reminds me of Fischer.

And really, if we want a backup TE and QB we should have got them in free agency and not with 2 of the top 4 picks.

The later picks actually help it a little. When and Jordan are both young with upside and potential. I like the RB picks as well and both could be steals.

We never addressed Defensive End and WR and would have rather done that than Sample and Finley. I like (edit) Sample too, just in the 4th if you really wanted him.

[BengalChris]

(04-28-2019, 09:00 AM)yang Wrote: Yeah, compare it to Pittsburgh who went and got two immediate starters on defense with all pro capability along with a starting WR and a TE And RB that will contribute in their first 5 picks and that is why I have to give it a D.

I do think Pratt will start, but as a WLB and come out on passing downs. He’s more run protection. Which is okay, we suck at it.

Williams might end up at guard which would suck to spend that high a pick on but you hope he is really good.  Just seems smallish to be an all pro tackle.  Reminds me of Fischer.

And really, if we want a backup TE and QB we should have got them in free agency and not with 2 of the top 4 picks.

The later picks actually help it a little.  When and Jordan are both young with upside and potential.  I like the RB picks as well and both could be steals.

We never addressed Defensive End and WR and would have rather done that than Sample and Finley.  I like Finley too, just in the 4th if you really wanted him.

What Pittsburgh did doesn't affect a grade for the Bengals draft, IMO. That would mean I'd have to know what every team did in order to give the Bengals an Instant grade.

I believe you are selling Williams short. He was a three year starter at LT for Bama. I expect that he'll eventually be our starting RT or LT. He's probably an immediate upgrade to Hart.

I'm pretty sure the Bengals see Sample as the starting TE next season. Eifiert is on a prove it deal and if he stays healthy for the year someone will offer him more than the Bengals will pay. If he has another bad injury I'd expect he'll retire.

I personally would have drafted differently and a WR would have been higher on the list. There are several WRs from this draft who will have better rookie seasons than Ross has had a career. In fact, I would have traded Ross. But that wasn't up to me.

[OSUfan]

(04-28-2019, 09:00 AM)yang Wrote: Yeah, compare it to Pittsburgh who went and got two immediate starters on defense with all pro capability along with a starting WR and a TE And RB that will contribute in their first 5 picks and that is why I have to give it a D.

I do think Pratt will start, but as a WLB and come out on passing downs. He’s more run protection. Which is okay, we suck at it.

Williams might end up at guard which would suck to spend that high a pick on but you hope he is really good.  Just seems smallish to be an all pro tackle.  Reminds me of Fischer.

And really, if we want a backup TE and QB we should have got them in free agency and not with 2 of the top 4 picks.

The later picks actually help it a little.  When and Jordan are both young with upside and potential.  I like the RB picks as well and both could be steals.

We never addressed Defensive End and WR and would have rather done that than Sample and Finley.  I like Finley too, just in the 4th if you really wanted him.

It is becoming extremely apparent that you are a closet Pittsburgh fan. Why not just admit it?

Jonah Williams reminds you of Fischer? How much sense does that even make? You want a much better comparison then you may want to try David Bakhtiari. Seems to have worked out alright for him hasn't it?

IF you think Sample is going to be nothing more than a backup then you simply are just being difficult. With the emphasis that this staff is going to put on running the football Sample is going to see a large amount of playing time and I have a feeling is going to be very valuable in the play action game which this staff seems to want to utilize heavily.

I am very certain you would have felt very differently about having Finley on this roster last season when Dalton got injured and if you do not think that Finley possesses the skills to become a future franchise QB then you clearly do not know much about the game.

We did not need to address WR with a draft selection as this staff clearly is comfortable with the group they have right now. However, they did add a kid as am UDFA that could push someone like Core off the roster and that is Stanley Morgan Jr.

Apparently you are fine with drafting backups at WR and DE but not at other positions? You are comical.

Just admit you are a Pittsburgh fan that is the first step in healing!

[SunsetBengal]

Out of 70 total votes so far, 65 give the Bengals a grade of C, or higher. I find that interesting, as from reading around a few different threads, one might get the impression that 65/70 might have viewed the Bengals draft as a colossal failure..

[yang]

(04-28-2019, 09:45 AM)OSUfan Wrote: It is becoming extremely apparent that you are a closet Pittsburgh fan. Why not just admit it?

Jonah Williams reminds you of Fischer? How much sense does that even make? You want a much better comparison then you may want to try David Bakhtiari. Seems to have worked out alright for him hasn't it?

If you think Sample is going to be nothing more than a backup then you simply are just being difficult. With the emphasis that this staff is going to put on running the football Sample is going to see a large amount of playing time and I have a feeling is going to be very valuable in the play action game which this staff seems to want to utilize heavily.

I am very certain you would have felt very differently about having Finley on this roster last season when Dalton got injured and if you do not think that Finley possesses the skills to become a future franchise QB then you clearly do not know much about the game.

We did not need to address WR with a draft selection as this staff clearly is comfortable with the group they have right now. However, they did add a kid as am UDFA that could push someone like Core off the roster and that is Stanley Morgan Jr.

Apparently you are fine with drafting backups at WR and DE but not at other positions? You are comical.

Just admit you are a Pittsburgh fan that is the first step in healing!

Dude, I have been a port of enough message boards to vouch for my loyalty I used to hold weekly tailgate parties for everyone to come hang out. You are just trying to use a moral identity attack on me as if if it makes your position or the picks better. If you want to like every bucket of shit thrown your way because of some authoritarian follower loyalty have at it.

The truth is every single all pro offensive tackle has at minimum an above average athletic grade. No all pro offensive tackles get there without it. It’s just reality. For Williams to get there he would have to literally break the mold. And this does not mean he doesn’t have the ability to be a decent average tackle with a long career. And it could mean that he won’t be able to handle it and move to guard where he could do well.

But there is a reason Williams fell to #11. If he had better size and athletic grades he would have.

And I say Sample is going to be a backup because HE IS A BACKUP!! This isn’t even a question. He is behind Eifert and Uzomah. How many 2 tight end sets do you think we will run? How many of those will include him? Like any other TE he has to learn his craft for a few years just like Kroft and Uzomah did. He will be really lucky to be on the field 10% of the time. Any more will be because of injury. Most of the time pro players are what they were in college. He will likely be an average TE in the league. He has no special skills to set him apart. As his coach said when they announced him, his receiving skills are “adequate”.

As for DE and WR, at 2 we could have have gotten a starter at either position. Lots of available talent there. The Rams had 3 WR’s with almost 1000 yards (injury prevented it) so you need lots of WR’s that can bring YAC. We also don’t know if Ross is going to make it and both our starters are signed for one year. It’s practically irresponsible not to draft a WR.

And we really need a 3 down DE, especially with Johnson gone. Who is filling that role? Lawson is a 3rd down rush specialist.

[OSUfan]

(04-28-2019, 02:43 PM)yang Wrote: Dude, I have been a port of enough message boards to vouch for my loyalty I used to hold weekly tailgate parties for everyone to come hang out.   You are just trying to use a moral identity attack on me as if if it makes your position or the picks better.   If you want to like every bucket of shit thrown your way because of some authoritarian follower loyalty have at it.

The truth is every single all pro offensive tackle has at minimum an above average athletic grade.  No all pro offensive tackles get there without it.  It’s just reality.   For Williams to get there he would have to literally break the mold.   And this does not mean he doesn’t have the ability to be a decent average tackle with a long career.  And it could mean that he won’t be able to handle it and move to guard where he could do well.

But there is a reason Williams fell to #11.  If he had better size and athletic grades he would have.

And I say Sample is going to be a backup because HE IS A BACKUP!!  This isn’t even a question. He is behind Eifert and Uzomah.   How many 2 tight end sets do you think we will run?    How many of those will include him?   Like any other TE he has to learn his craft for a few years just like Kroft and Uzomah did.  He will be really lucky to be on the field 10% of the time.  Any more will be because of injury.  Most of the time pro players are what they were in college.  He will likely be an average TE in the league.  He has no special skills to set him apart.   As his coach said when they announced him, his receiving skills are “adequate”.

As for DE and WR, at 2 we could have have gotten a starter at either position. Lots of available talent there.   The Rams had 3 WR’s with almost 1000 yards (injury prevented it) so you need lots of WR’s that can bring YAC.  We also don’t know if Ross is going to make it and both our starters are signed for one year.  It’s practically irresponsible not to draft a WR.

And we really need a 3 down DE, especially with Johnson gone.   Who is filling that role?  Lawson is a 3rd down rush specialist.

Not sure if you do not watch the Bengals or follow them or what but we do have that 3 down DE as a matter of fact we drafted him last season and he showed out extremely well for being a rookie. If you do not know who that is then there is no point even carrying on a conversation with you. I would also be curious who this sure fire guaranteed starter at DE is that you are talking about us drafting in the spot of Sample.

You keep talking about drafting a WR and complaining about Sample being a backup. Hate to break this to you but I do not see too many WRs in this draft walking in on day 1 and starting over AJ Green and Tyler Boyd.

Actually what appears to be is that positions that you think they should have drafted would be instant starters but if it is not that position then it is not an instant starter. It also appears that you call a #3 WR a starter but not a #2 TE.

[leonardfan40]

I gave it a B+. I love the Williams pick. Sample wasn’t great but hopefully he blocks as well as they say and can be at least somewhat useful in the passing game. Love the Pratt pick and think we got great value with our 4th rounders.

The thing I like best about this draft is that it was clear from the start that Taylor has a clear plan and will stick to it. It may work, may not, but I don’t remember this team having a clear vision and identity and it is obvious Taylor is changing that from day one.

[Fullrock]

I think it was a solid B.
Happy as hell Jonah Williams fell to 11. Didn't expect him to be there. Sample will get plenty of playing time and will have an impact in both the running and passing game. Pratt will start and be an instant upgrade to what was on the field last year at LB. Wren should get snaps as a rotational DT. Williams was a great 6th round pick as I doubt they sign Gio after his contract is up. Brown was a great value pick in the 7th.

[Luvnit2]

(04-28-2019, 10:13 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Out of 70 total votes so far, 65 give the Bengals a grade of C, or higher.  I find that interesting, as from reading around a few different threads, one might get the impression that 65/70 might have viewed the Bengals draft as a colossal failure..

Now out of 79 total votes, 61 gave B or better and 16 C's.

I think our forum may grade tougher than a lot of experts. We have some A's and a lot more C's and worse in this forum.

[Lionel Hutz]

Gave it a B. Liked what Bengals did to address the offensive line, but linebacker/defense still an obvious issue. Sample was a definite reach in 2nd round, but they made up for it by getting good value in Finley (QB) in 4th round, and Williams (RB) in 6th round. Don't know how many of these guys will be ready to contribute year 1 (Williams is only sure thing), but how many rookies really are? Overall, this draft solidified the bottom-end of Bengals' roster, but don't see much difference-makers there as for the top of the roster.

[Goalpost]

Gave it a B also. According to the site I follow, we only had one player drafted that ranked in the top 100...that was Williams. Pratt ranked next at 108.

However we ended up with 8 picks overall in the top 150.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-29-2019, 10:03 AM)Lionel Hutz Wrote: Gave it a B.  Liked what Bengals did to address the offensive line, but linebacker/defense still an obvious issue.  Sample was a definite reach in 2nd round, but they made up for it by getting good value in Finley (QB) in 4th round, and Williams (RB) in 6th round.  Don't know how many of these guys will be ready to contribute year 1 (Williams is only sure thing), but how many rookies really are?  Overall, this draft solidified the bottom-end of Bengals' roster, but don't see much difference-makers there as for the top of the roster.

Great take this is where I am at as well. 

[Fullrock]

In terms of the WR position, I saw another poster complaining about not drafting one. The Bengals however did sign Stanley Morgan as an undrafted free agent. Several draft gurus had a 3rd-5th round grade on him. He should have a very good chance to make the team.

[yang]

(04-28-2019, 02:54 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Not sure if you do not watch the Bengals or follow them or what but we do have that 3 down DE as a matter of fact we drafted him last season and he showed out extremely well for being a rookie. If you do not know who that is then there is no point even carrying on a conversation with you. I would also be curious who this sure fire guaranteed starter at DE is that you are talking about us drafting in the spot of Sample.

You keep talking about drafting a WR and complaining about Sample being a backup. Hate to break this to you but I do not see too many WRs in this draft walking in on day 1 and starting over AJ Green and Tyler Boyd.

Actually what appears to be is that positions that you think they should have drafted would be instant starters but if it is not that position then it is not an instant starter. It also appears that you call a #3 WR a starter but not a #2 TE.

Well, you avoided everything I said which refuted your earlier contentions and threw out more nonsense.  I'm starting to think you are the one who isn't the fan or watches games.   Do you know we often run 3 and sometimes 4 WR sets?   Do you know that our WR's don't seem to be able to stay healthy and on the field?  Do you know that two of them are in the final year of their deals?  So yes, a 2nd round WR would have been on the field way more than a 3rd string TE.  And you can get a block TE on the waiver wire or free agency if you really needed it, or another in the 6th round.   

Look, it's all opinion and we won't know for 3 years, but this looks like a really poor draft to me for the reasons discussed.   Let's just hope we can get a couple average starters out of it and then tank the season and try again next year with a higher pick. 

[bengals67]

I said B+.

Trying to improve the absolutely awful o line was the most important goal given we have a top 5 RB and the need to save Andy from Bobby Hart.

 LBs remain perhaps the worst unit in NFL. I hope they trade for a LB or sign a good free agent.

D line is not as good as we like to think. Could not stop the run last year and very poor pass rush. It is below average.

There are so many issues with this team they cannot be fixed in one draft.

Being able to run the ball and keep possession will cover for a lot of weaknesses.

Taylor made a good start. He needs a lot more time.