The 2005 Bengals

[Bengalitis]

We would definitely would have gotten to the Super Bowl.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-09-2019, 03:04 PM)NKURyan Wrote: No kidding? Gee, I almost forgot. 

That game in 2015 wouldn't have even been close with Andy Dalton at QB. They would've been up by at least two scores the way the defense played that night, and at that point there's no room for a meltdown. The only reason the Steelers were in that game was because McCarron did nothing for 3 quarters... I'll give him credit for pulling them into the lead at the end, but had they got anything from their QB before then it's not even a game IMO.

I don't know. We started 8-0 and finished 4-4. IF I recall correctly, we had several shots to wrap up the #1 seed and kept losing.

re: The lack of discipline - The Bengals built teams by picking up rejects with red flags which really hurt our discipline. Burfict and Jones were the poster boys...and fans seemed to love Burfict's dirty play.

That game...our boxscore: 0 0 0 16. We did nothing until the 4th quarter.

Without Bell, the Steelers rushed for 167 yards with 2 guys they signed off the street. The Bengals rushed for 91 yards.

Turnovers 4 for the Bengals and 2 for the Steelers.

Total Yards: Steelers 379 Bengals 279.

Penalties: Steelers 142 yards Bengals 79

Not going to lose the turnover battle by 2 and outrushed by 76 yards and win too many times. 

[Destro]

Not a Super Bowl winner, but a playoff game winner, and I would suckle off that teat for 20 years.

[NKURyan]

(05-09-2019, 10:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know. We started 8-0 and finished 4-4. IF I recall correctly, we had several shots to wrap up the #1 seed and kept losing.

re: The lack of discipline - The Bengals built teams by picking up rejects with red flags which really hurt our discipline. Burfict and Jones were the poster boys...and fans seemed to love Burfict's dirty play.

That game...our boxscore: 0 0 0 16. We did nothing until the 4th quarter.

Without Bell, the Steelers rushed for 167 yards with 2 guys they signed off the street. The Bengals rushed for 91 yards.

Turnovers 4 for the Bengals and 2 for the Steelers.

Total Yards: Steelers 379 Bengals 279.

Penalties: Steelers 142 yards Bengals 79

Not going to lose the turnover battle by 2 and outrushed by 76 yards and win too many times. 

OK, let's address this point by point:

First, they did have a chance to wrap up a first round bye in Denver, and McCarron fumbled it away. I maintain that if Andy Dalton in the midst of an MVP-quality season is out there, that never happens. The offense changed completely after Andy was out for the year, which helped keep that game close.

Second, you are vastly underselling Vontaze Burfict and what he did for the Bengals. I don't fault the Bengals at all for bringing him in - they took a flyer on him and he paid off for them. Was he dirty? Probably, but I don't care because when you play in the division with the Steelers you need guys who can get nasty right back at them - that's what the Ravens do. While Vontaze cost them dearly at the end of the game on, if Jeremy Hill doesn't fumble the ball Vontaze is the hero and goes down in Cincinnati sports history for clinching the first playoff win in decades with his INT. I'm not bagging on the Bengals for running him out there.

Third, the box score just backs up what I said originally - Andy would not have got shut out for three quarters with that offense in 2015. Period.

Fourth, the Bengals lack of rushing production can be attributed to two things. One, with McCarron out there you don't have to respect the passing game much at all. Two, the Bengals were playing from behind for pretty much the whole game. Hell, Gio Bernard was damn near killed on the field and got carted off while the Steelers danced (pretty sure that was one of the turnovers, too). I don't look at 91 yards as being a huge failure on the fault of the running game.

Finally, while that team may have gone 4-4 over the last 8 games, all 4 losses came against playoff teams. One of those losses was to the eventual Super Bowl champions, and two others were to teams that won playoff games that season. Two of the losses (Pittsburgh and Denver) came with their backup QB. No shame in any of that, and I don't think that's any great indictment of what that 2015 team was.

That 2015 Bengals team was something special, and yeah, had they not lost their MVP quarterback they would've broke through, no question in my mind. I hope all those folks who pined for McCarron over Dalton for years are happy, because they got what they wanted and it killed the best team the Bengals fielded in decades.

[lone bengal]

(05-09-2019, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Absolutely devastated by injuries/suspensions.

Thurman did not play a snap.

Pollack and Braham only played one full game each.

Levi Jones missed 11 games.

Kelly Washington missed 11.

Chris Perry missed 10.

Brian Simmons missed 5

Dexter Jackson missed 4.

Deltha O'Neal missed 4.

Bobbie Williams missed 3.

Housh missed 2.


Henry missed 3.

Thornton missed 1.

The injuries you mention to veteran players like Jones, Braham and others set the team back. Adding to that was basically losing our entire 2005 draft class along with our 2004 1st round pick Chris Perry who never fully recovered from his injury. The defense wasn't good that season but Pollack and Thurman were just rookies with bright futures and we all know how that panned out.  Add in Chris Henry who was constantly suspended. Pollack, Thurman and Henry accounted for rounds 1-3 of the 2005 draft class. Back in 2005 kickoff returns mattered and Tab Perry who was our 6th round pick in 2005 finished the 2005 season with a franchise record 1,562 kickoff return yards, and 2 touchdowns on offense. You can add Perry to the list, in 2006  he suffered a season-ending injury in the second game of the year and was never the same. Jonathan Fanene was a 7th round pick in 2005 and had a nice career as a role player. I think if those draft classes stayed healthy the Palmer window may have not been slammed shut after the 2005 injury. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

If memory serves correctly, wasn't the first IR of the season a Practice Squad player and that wasn't until sometime in December of '05? Like Lapham always says, the best ability is availability.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(05-09-2019, 03:33 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: January 8, 2006... one of the worst days I’ve ever had for a variety of reasons. I won’t get into the entire day I had, but we all know what capped it off

Anyway, if the 2005 Steelers could win it all, so could the 2005 bengals. But who knows? Knowing what we do about Marvin Lewis now and his Primetime bengals, I’d say it’s doubtful they win. Though I think it’s obvious Marv didn’t have his hand in the offensive play calling back then...

Everything just fell into place for the Steelers after that game. They barely snuck by Peyton and the Colts. Jake Plummer completely fell apart. Seattle would have won if the refs called a fair game but Cincy would have had a completely different path to the Super Bowl. Would we have won it all that year? My gut says no.

I remember not even expecting to beat Pittsburgh that day, but I expected them to put up a great fight. We will never know how that game would have turned out if we had our elite QB, and I honestly hate to even think about it. Playing the what-if game here is nothing but depressing.

If Palmer never had his knee ripped to shreds, I firmly believe his Bengal career would have been very different (better). Be it mental or physical (or both), that knee injury ruined him. He was never the same for us, and didn’t regain elite status until 10 years later in Arizona. A whole lot of what-ifs that stem from that one single second on January 8, 2006.

The day AFTER the Bengals meltdown against the Steelers will probably go as the worst day of my life. I was feeling pretty crappy after not sleeping after the game, I woke my son up the next morning and told him the news and he started to cry a little. I didn't notice he was crying until I heard his 20th sniffle and I asked him what's wrong? He said, "They always lose". I was shocked he was so upset since he was very young (7 years old). I laughed and said you haven't lived through the '90s. While I was talking to him my father had left me a voicemail and expressed his "condolences". He also said to call him back the next day after I feel better because he had news for me. I called him later that day and spoke about the game for about 15 minutes. I told him it was his fault that I was a Bengals fan since I was 3 years old. It was after that he told me he had Stage 4 pancreatic cancer. After about 10 seconds of silence all I can say was "Why are you telling me this now after the shit that went on last night?" He reminded me that he told me to call him the next day and not that night so I had a little time to recover from the game. He passed away 14 months later.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(05-09-2019, 11:19 PM)NKURyan Wrote: OK, let's address this point by point:

First, they did have a chance to wrap up a first round bye in Denver, and McCarron fumbled it away. I maintain that if Andy Dalton in the midst of an MVP-quality season is out there, that never happens. The offense changed completely after Andy was out for the year, which helped keep that game close.

Second, you are vastly underselling Vontaze Burfict and what he did for the Bengals. I don't fault the Bengals at all for bringing him in - they took a flyer on him and he paid off for them. Was he dirty? Probably, but I don't care because when you play in the division with the Steelers you need guys who can get nasty right back at them - that's what the Ravens do. While Vontaze cost them dearly at the end of the game on, if Jeremy Hill doesn't fumble the ball Vontaze is the hero and goes down in Cincinnati sports history for clinching the first playoff win in decades with his INT. I'm not bagging on the Bengals for running him out there.

Third, the box score just backs up what I said originally - Andy would not have got shut out for three quarters with that offense in 2015. Period.

Fourth, the Bengals lack of rushing production can be attributed to two things. One, with McCarron out there you don't have to respect the passing game much at all. Two, the Bengals were playing from behind for pretty much the whole game. Hell, Gio Bernard was damn near killed on the field and got carted off while the Steelers danced (pretty sure that was one of the turnovers, too). I don't look at 91 yards as being a huge failure on the fault of the running game.

Finally, while that team may have gone 4-4 over the last 8 games, all 4 losses came against playoff teams. One of those losses was to the eventual Super Bowl champions, and two others were to teams that won playoff games that season. Two of the losses (Pittsburgh and Denver) came with their backup QB. No shame in any of that, and I don't think that's any great indictment of what that 2015 team was.

That 2015 Bengals team was something special, and yeah, had they not lost their MVP quarterback they would've broke through, no question in my mind. I hope all those folks who pined for McCarron over Dalton for years are happy, because they got what they wanted and it killed the best team the Bengals fielded in decades.

Agreed. Excellent points here. People forget that Dalton was in the running for MVP before he got hurt. That team was special. Hell, it was so special that they almost beat the Steelers in the playoffs without their QB. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The Bengals had good teams in 2005 and 2015 but I believe the 2009 Bengals had the best overall balance. They ran effectively, passed when necessary, and played superb defense. Let’s not forget the 2009 team went 6-0 against the AFC North.

[HarleyDog]

(05-10-2019, 05:34 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Let’s not forget the 2009 team went 6-0 against the AFC North.

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 05:34 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The Bengals had good teams in 2005 and 2015 but I believe the 2009 Bengals had the best overall balance.  They ran effectively, passed when necessary, and played superb defense.  Let’s not forget the 2009 team went 6-0 against the AFC North.

The '09 team was smoke and mirrors.  The least talented of all of Marvin's playoff teams.  After Chris Henry went down with injury in game #8 our offense disappeared.  The next week we beat Pitt without an offensive TD and after that we never beat a team better than 4-12.  

[THE PISTONS]

(05-09-2019, 11:19 PM)NKURyan Wrote: OK, let's address this point by point:

First, they did have a chance to wrap up a first round bye in Denver, and McCarron fumbled it away. I maintain that if Andy Dalton in the midst of an MVP-quality season is out there, that never happens. The offense changed completely after Andy was out for the year, which helped keep that game close.

Second, you are vastly underselling Vontaze Burfict and what he did for the Bengals. I don't fault the Bengals at all for bringing him in - they took a flyer on him and he paid off for them. Was he dirty? Probably, but I don't care because when you play in the division with the Steelers you need guys who can get nasty right back at them - that's what the Ravens do. While Vontaze cost them dearly at the end of the game on, if Jeremy Hill doesn't fumble the ball Vontaze is the hero and goes down in Cincinnati sports history for clinching the first playoff win in decades with his INT. I'm not bagging on the Bengals for running him out there.

Third, the box score just backs up what I said originally - Andy would not have got shut out for three quarters with that offense in 2015. Period.

Fourth, the Bengals lack of rushing production can be attributed to two things. One, with McCarron out there you don't have to respect the passing game much at all. Two, the Bengals were playing from behind for pretty much the whole game. Hell, Gio Bernard was damn near killed on the field and got carted off while the Steelers danced (pretty sure that was one of the turnovers, too). I don't look at 91 yards as being a huge failure on the fault of the running game.

Finally, while that team may have gone 4-4 over the last 8 games, all 4 losses came against playoff teams. One of those losses was to the eventual Super Bowl champions, and two others were to teams that won playoff games that season. Two of the losses (Pittsburgh and Denver) came with their backup QB. No shame in any of that, and I don't think that's any great indictment of what that 2015 team was.

That 2015 Bengals team was something special, and yeah, had they not lost their MVP quarterback they would've broke through, no question in my mind. I hope all those folks who pined for McCarron over Dalton for years are happy, because they got what they wanted and it killed the best team the Bengals fielded in decades.

I think the bolded illustrates why they weren't a SB Team. They lost to the SB Champions down the stretch and to 2 other playoff teams.

It's hard to say.

Agree totally on Jeremy Hill. When is the last time you saw a RB fumble in this situation outside of the Bengals?

It's hard to evaluate what would have happened after seeing the total meltdown. It's hard to say that with Dalton, the same wouldn't happen. For some reason, this team shrinks in big games.

[NKURyan]

(05-10-2019, 09:31 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think the bolded illustrates why they weren't a SB Team. They lost to the SB Champions down the stretch and to 2 other playoff teams.

It's hard to say.

Agree totally on Jeremy Hill. When is the last time you saw a RB fumble in this situation outside of the Bengals?

It's hard to evaluate what would have happened after seeing the total meltdown. It's hard to say that with Dalton, the same wouldn't happen. For some reason, this team shrinks in big games.

They lost to the Super Bowl champions down the stretch in OT with a backup QB instead of their MVP. They lost to the Steelers down the stretch in a game where their MVP QB was knocked out for the season early on in the game. They barely lost to an equally great Cardinals team on the road on a goofy call, and they fell asleep against a division champion Texans team after starting the season 8-0. I don't think any of those losses are indications that the 2015 Bengals with Andy Dalton were unfit for a postseason run. You're reaching here.

The "total meltdown" never happens if Andy's out there because in all likelihood they're not in that situation in the first place. I strongly believed they would've won that game by multiple scores at full strength, because they were plain and simple the better team that year.


Of course, if Andy doesn't get hurt they probably don't play the first week of the postseason anyways, but come on... to imply the 2015 team wasn't SB caliber is pretty ridiculous.

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 09:31 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think the bolded illustrates why they weren't a SB Team. They lost to the SB Champions down the stretch and to 2 other playoff teams.

Yeah, right, because the Super Bowl champion is always undefeated in the regular season.


This is getting silly. 

[THE PISTONS]

(05-10-2019, 01:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right, because the Super Bowl champion is always undefeated in the regular season.


This is getting silly. 

We started 8-0. Finished 4-4. My assertion is that we peaked the 1st half of that season and were on the decline by the 2nd half of the year.

Like I also said, we probably had a Top 3 roster that year. Then free agency tore the team apart over the next 2 years.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-10-2019, 10:57 AM)NKURyan Wrote: They lost to the Super Bowl champions down the stretch in OT with a backup QB instead of their MVP. They lost to the Steelers down the stretch in a game where their MVP QB was knocked out for the season early on in the game. They barely lost to an equally great Cardinals team on the road on a goofy call, and they fell asleep against a division champion Texans team after starting the season 8-0. I don't think any of those losses are indications that the 2015 Bengals with Andy Dalton were unfit for a postseason run. You're reaching here.

The "total meltdown" never happens if Andy's out there because in all likelihood they're not in that situation in the first place. I strongly believed they would've won that game by multiple scores at full strength, because they were plain and simple the better team that year.


Of course, if Andy doesn't get hurt they probably don't play the first week of the postseason anyways, but come on... to imply the 2015 team wasn't SB caliber is pretty ridiculous.

Do we put a healthy Leveon Bell on the Steelers in this scenario too?

It's hard in any scenario to say we beat the Steelers as they pretty much statistically owned us since Marvin has been here.

But, I do think we had a better shot at beating the Steelers with Dalton. I won't say we win for sure, but there's a good chance we do.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-09-2019, 12:18 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Losing Rudi Johnson hurt pass blocking big time. I've said for years that the best pass blocking RB that I've ever seen was Walter Payton. The second best was Rudi Johnson. Rudi didn't catch a lot of passes because he was committed to plugging up the leaks in the o-line. Chris Perry was committed to being in the passing game as a receiver. Palmer injured his elbow in the first game without Rudi on a play that Perry whiffed on his block.

....and THAT was what derailed Palmer.

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 01:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We started 8-0. Finished 4-4. My assertion is that we peaked the 1st half of that season and were on the decline by the 2nd half of the year.

The Super Bowl champions that year started 7-0 and ended 5-4.

As usual you are just spinning as hard as you can to shit on the Bengals.

[NKURyan]

(05-10-2019, 01:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Do we put a healthy Leveon Bell on the Steelers in this scenario too?

It's hard in any scenario to say we beat the Steelers as they pretty much statistically owned us since Marvin has been here.

But, I do think we had a better shot at beating the Steelers with Dalton. I won't say we win for sure, but there's a good chance we do.

Sure. Dalton was clearly more important to his team than Le'veon was in 2015, and I doubt he goes over the 160+ yards they already got from their RBs that night anyways.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-09-2019, 11:23 AM)packerbacker Wrote: You guys think that team would have won it all if Palmer didn't get hurt?

As Fred said, the Defense was really bad, no way that Defense wins a Title.

The 2015 Bengals team had a much better chance even with our back up QB and who knows if Dalton could of came back after the thumb injury had we held on and beat the Steelers. The 2015 Bengals team had a good Offense, Defense and ST's. Was solid in all 3 phases.