Mike says Dalton should "re-establish himself" but FO needs to establish themselves

[Hoofhearted]

(05-09-2019, 07:20 PM)Whatever Wrote: My old man has his own version of the Golden Rule that applies here.  He who has the gold makes the rules.

The Brown certainly has their misses and their faults.  At the end of the day, though, they don't go out there and suit up.  They aren't the ones out there folding up in primetime, the playoffs, and against the Steelers.  The narrative of the Bengals under Marvin has always been choking in big spots.

Does anybody think that if the Pats lost the SB that their fans would be saying that the FO is to blame because they knew they didn't have an outside threat at WR and went bargain bin shopping to try and fix the problem with Josh Gordon?  Every team has weak spots.  It's up to the coaches to emphasize their strong spots and camouflage their weaknesses.  

At the end of the day, Marvin had the talent necessary to make some playoff runs and they didn't do it.  They always crumbled under pressure.  Different players, different assistants, they always cracked.  They didn't choke because MB horribly mismanaged the team for a decade.  They choked because Marvin was a mediocre coach.

They're also not held accountable for these mistakes while others lose their job for it. That's the hypocrisy the players see. You have an owner who holds 0 accountability to his FO and you expect the players & coaches to be held to a higher standard?

[Whatever]

(05-10-2019, 09:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  That is exactly what they would say.  Especially if the Patriots front office had failed every single year to fix the problems on the roster.

Do you seriously think no other fan base ever criticizes the front office?  I hear it all the time.



Marvvin rarely had the talent he needed to win.  In most of his playoff losses the Bengals were underdogs based on lack of talent.

I think you missed the point. If you have good coaching, you don't have to make excuses all the time.  They find a way to get the best out of what they have.

You understand that Marvin's ineptness as a HC was the primary factor in the Bengals being the underdog, right?  Experts and oddsmakers don't just look at the roster.  They look at the coach who has failed miserably in every playoff game and should have been fired a long time ago. By your rules though, even when he was favored to win, and thusly had the talent to win by your own criteria, he couldn't.  He couldn't, because he wasn't that good of a coach. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-10-2019, 08:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And that is the problem with most of the Dalton haters around here.  They don't care how well he plays.  They just blame everything on him no matter what.

Here is what I will do if we fail this season.  I will look at the games and see who actually messed up, but I guess that is too difficult for some people.

Works both ways. According to the Dalton “lovers” (see how silly these labels sound) it’s never his fault. It’s the coaching, or the OL, or the lack of weapons, or JB, or the guys that hand out the Gatorade, etc.

You will never hold Dalton accountable because you’re too dug in on your stance about him. And before you accuse me of the same look at the very first thread I started here talking about how underrated Dalton was at the time. Some of us actually do change our opinions back and fourth depending on what happens on the field.

[Whatever]

(05-10-2019, 09:49 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: They're also not held accountable for these mistakes while others lose their job for it. That's the hypocrisy the players see. You have an owner who holds 0 accountability to his FO and you expect the players & coaches to be held to a higher standard?

Welcome to the NFL.  Every owner in the NFL is ultimately responsible for every move their team makes, and they are only accountable to themselves.  

Do we really think that any current or former HC in Mike's position would ultimately decide that they're doing a bad job and effectively fire themselves by selling the team?  How many players are asking coach to bench them because they can't get it done or ask for a pay cut because they feel they are overpaid for their performance level and lowering their cap # helps the team?

People not being held accountable is part of everyday work life, be it nepotism, workplace politics, or business structure.  If you're really going to do a worse job just because you think someone else isn't doing a good job, you're just as much of a problem as they are.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

I think Mike Brown meant well with respect to his comments about Andy Dalton but it was certainly a poor choice of words. Let’s not forget Mike keys on quarterback play ever since he played that position himself at Dartmouth and let’s also not forget he gave away almost an entire draft for Akili Smith decades ago. I’m honestly not sure he understands play in the trenches at all — but his father sure did.

[depthchart]

(05-10-2019, 09:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In Cincy? Make the playoffs and lose and it's a success. Make the playoffs 5 years in a row and lose them all and they're writing articles about how the rest of the league dreams to be you.

(05-10-2019, 09:49 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: They're also not held accountable for these mistakes while others lose their job for it. That's the hypocrisy the players see. You have an owner who holds 0 accountability to his FO and you expect the players & coaches to be held to a higher standard?

(05-10-2019, 11:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: Welcome to the NFL.  Every owner in the NFL is ultimately responsible for every move their team makes, and they are only accountable to themselves.  

Do we really think that any current or former HC in Mike's position would ultimately decide that they're doing a bad job and effectively fire themselves by selling the team?  How many players are asking coach to bench them because they can't get it done or ask for a pay cut because they feel they are overpaid for their performance level and lowering their cap # helps the team?

I would expect that Mike likely hangs his hat on the 5 straight Playoff appearances & the few AFC North Division Titles that happened during his tenure as Owner.

Seeing his part in all of this as the glass being half full and the part of the glass that isn't full is the result of Coaches not getting enough from the players he gave them -and/or- players that he had faith in falling short & now they just need replaced by Mike.

I'd bet Mike sees himself as a much better Owner/GM than the average fan sees him as.

A heavy focus on the positives by Mike (5 straight Playoffs) & surrounding himself with reminders of the positives (AFC North Title Banners) coupled with him being able to pinpoint specific Coach/player failures (fumbles/injuries etc) would make in easy for Mike to get it in his mind that he is not the problem.

Human Nature to give ones self the benefit of the doubt.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

And The Weather Channel just announced water is wet.

[OSUfan]

(05-10-2019, 08:40 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I was hoping to read "Mike says Dalton should grow some nuts".

I thought our last coach had multiple power struggles with ownership and ended up winning and getting his way and sticking around. We ended up with some super shitbag coaches and drafts that have totally derailed us.

Front office can only do so much. They are not on the field in between the white lines.

However. As far as attitude coming from the top down. My god. Its as bad as it can get. They dont come more low energy than Mike. There should be a rule. If you talk to the owner or hear him talk, immediately after you must go get a shot of adrenaline and listen to 15 minutes of your favorite hype music. No exceptions.

So are you suggesting in some fashion that Dalton is weak or a wimp or what? I know it is an old cliché but relatively certain you would only say that behind the protection of the internet.

[Hoofhearted]

(05-10-2019, 11:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: Welcome to the NFL.  Every owner in the NFL is ultimately responsible for every move their team makes, and they are only accountable to themselves.  

Do we really think that any current or former HC in Mike's position would ultimately decide that they're doing a bad job and effectively fire themselves by selling the team?  How many players are asking coach to bench them because they can't get it done or ask for a pay cut because they feel they are overpaid for their performance level and lowering their cap # helps the team?

People not being held accountable is part of everyday work life, be it nepotism, workplace politics, or business structure.  If you're really going to do a worse job just because you think someone else isn't doing a good job, you're just as much of a problem as they are.

I said holding his FO to the level of accountability as players and coaches -- not just the owner holding himself accountable. Clearly he's not going to fire himself. But It's crazy to go out and fire most of the coaches and not one single FO member is held accountable like they had 0 to do with it. Clearly accountability is not everywhere, but it is in most thriving or successful businesses. You don't perform, you're gone. 

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 10:13 AM)Whatever Wrote: You understand that Marvin's ineptness as a HC was the primary factor in the Bengals being the underdog, right? 

No.  It was based on lack of talent.

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 09:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In Cincy? Make the playoffs and lose and it's a success.

Not one Bengal fan was satisfied with losing in the first round.  That is just some BS you make up and Give me the name of one fan who was satisfied with losing in the first round or STFU with that stupid shit.

[*bfine32*]

(05-10-2019, 09:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you think the problem is that Andy is just lazy and does not work hard enough?

Nope, but let's look at the blueprint (NE).

They drafted Mallet in the 3rd. The lose Mallet:

They drafted Jimmy Garoppolo in the 2nd. They lose Garoppolo:

They take Jarret Stidham in the 4th

Does NE thinks the problem is that Brady is just lazy and does not work hard enough?

Hell Pitt has drafted 2 QBs in the 4th and one in the 3rd while Big Ben was/is in his prime

Does Pitt thinks the problem is that Ben is just lazy and does not work hard enough?

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 04:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, but let's look at the blueprint (NE).

They drafted Mallet in the 3rd. The lose Mallet:

They drafted Jimmy Garoppolo in the 2nd. They lose Garoppolo:

They take Jarret Stidham in the 4th

Does NE thinks the problem is that Brady is just lazy and does not work hard enough?

Hell Pitt has drafted 2 QBs in the 4th and one in the 3rd while Big Ben was/is in his prime

Does Pitt thinks the problem is that Ben is just lazy and does not work hard enough?

So you think Ben and Brady are good QBs because of these draft picks?

Interesting theory.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-09-2019, 01:53 PM)depthchart Wrote: "The Buck stops here" is a phrase that indicates exactly who is responsible.

Fans tend to see matchups as Dalton versus Big Ben or the Steeler O-line versus the Bengal D-line or soon to be AJ Green versus O'dell as the storylines.

If the Bengals defense falters in 2019 due to poor linebacker play then fingers may point at Malik or Pratt or Preston or Vigil as not stepping up or panning out. Maybe fire the linebacker coach to appease the fans and draw attention away by placing the Buck on that Coach.

Should 2019 not go well, the Cycle of fans picking out certain players & Coaches to blame will likely hit the repeat button.

Some may say; Dalton can't carry a team  -or- the young linebackers busted -or- Hart had to step up but didn't -or- Ross laid an egg -or the team had one too many injuries -or- this or that Coach needs to go -or- the D-line is still one DT away

A position Coach or two may get fired and Draft talk begins again with fans eyeing say a replacement for Ross, or that missing DT or one more Offensive tackle or the next Devin White or maybe even a 1st round QB that fans are certain can "carry a team" to replace Dalton.

The Buck has made it's rounds stopping at many players and a few Coaches but who really benefits from this ?

At the end of the day it isn't the Bengals players versus the Steeler players or Bengal players versus the players of 31 other teams.

It is the Vision of the Bengal Front Office & decision makers versus the Steeler Front Office or versus the rest of the Front Offices in the NFL.

They pick the players, hire the Coaches, decide that Preston/Malik/Vigil/Pratt make a good enough nucleus of linebackers to go into a season with.

The Front Office pencils in Hart as a starter or doubles down on Ross or expects Dalton to carry the team or retains a Coach seemingly forever or hires inexperienced Coaches or likes the linebackers they have.

The Patriot way found & developed Tom Brady and injuries are not constantly derailing the Patriot way because their way has a way of overcoming obstacles (like injuries, player departures) that always seem a constant ready excuse for the Bengal Front Office.

Front Offices have varying aptitude levels & skill levels of their own that set them apart from each other.

That cream rises to the Top.

Mike Brown recently said that Dalton needed to "re-establish himself" placing the Buck right in Dalton's lap but maybe instead of Dalton re-establishing himself the Bengal Front Office should establish themselves.

Every player chosen, Coach hired and game result is a reflection of the Vision the Bengal Front Office embarked upon.

Their PLAN versus the Plans of 31 other teams each and every season.

A survival of the fittest game of Chess (so to speak) where the players are just the hand picked Chess pieces.

Does the Bengal Front Office have the drive, Vision & aptitude level to "establish" themselves as winners is the real question.

Lots of good points here Depthchart. I don't know, i think Mikey is a little old to learn new tricks. I hope the rest of the FO can though, i think hiring Zac Taylor was a great start as all the players seem very excited and highly motivated for once. Seems much different then when Marv was here.

[Lucidus]

I'm very excited to see what Andy Dalton looks like playing in Coach Taylor and Callahan's system.

[*bfine32*]

(05-10-2019, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you think Ben and Brady are good QBs because of these draft picks?

Interesting theory.

You just kinda say things don't you?

Nobody said Ben and Brady are good QBs because of these draft picks. 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-09-2019, 07:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Props to the OP for putting the emphasis on winning where it belongs, with the Management of the organization.

I've said this many times, and I'll restate it one more time.  Winning is an attitude that starts at the very top of the organization, and resonates throughout every single person affiliated with that organization.

Yep. The ownership establishes a culture. They hire the right guys that fit the culture and permeate it through the entire building. Our problem is that even if Zac Taylor is the 2nd coming of Belichick, it will mean nothing if this front office isn't doing 100% everything physically possible to help him achieve success. 

That's why I was so disappointed in this free agency. We had all this talk about a "new dey", but the front office didn't change their approach. We're still picking through scraps and worrying about compensatory picks. We'll probably also remain the only team in the league that handles contracts the way we do (minimizing guaranteed money) which is great for limiting dead money, but also limits the types of players we can sign.

This FO doesn't seem willing to change themselves. 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-10-2019, 11:34 AM)depthchart Wrote: I would expect that Mike likely hangs his hat on the 5 straight Playoff appearances & the few AFC North Division Titles that happened during his tenure as Owner.

Seeing his part in all of this as the glass being half full and the part of the glass that isn't full is the result of Coaches not getting enough from the players he gave them -and/or- players that he had faith in falling short & now they just need replaced by Mike.

I'd bet Mike sees himself as a much better Owner/GM than the average fan sees him as.

A heavy focus on the positives by Mike (5 straight Playoffs) & surrounding himself with reminders of the positives (AFC North Title Banners) coupled with him being able to pinpoint specific Coach/player failures (fumbles/injuries etc) would make in easy for Mike to get it in his mind that he is not the problem.

Human Nature to give ones self the benefit of the doubt.

I'll never forget Mike saying "we haven't had a record that's unacceptable" in reference to a 5 year span with an overall losing record. 

Considering this quote, that 5 year playoff run probably feels like a dynasty to Mike.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-10-2019, 08:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. The ownership establishes a culture. They hire the right guys that fit the culture and permeate it through the entire building. Our problem is that even if Zac Taylor is the 2nd coming of Belichick, it will mean nothing if this front office isn't doing 100% everything physically possible to help him achieve success. 

That's why I was so disappointed in this free agency. We had all this talk about a "new dey", but the front office didn't change their approach. We're still picking through scraps and worrying about compensatory picks. We'll probably also remain the only team in the league that handles contracts the way we do (minimizing guaranteed money) which is great for limiting dead money, but also limits the types of players we can sign.

This FO doesn't seem willing to change [b]themselves.[/b]

Until Mike Brown is totally out of the picture nothing is truly gonna change. And then there's no guarantee it will be different.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-10-2019, 08:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Until Mike Brown is totally out of the picture nothing is truly gonna change. And then there's no guarantee it will be different.

The Bengals are a family business. They're one of the only owners in the league that didn't become billionaires doing something else. The Bengals ARE their business, and unfortunately I think they view this team more as a business than anything else. Not saying that other owners aren't in it for money, but for many of them, owning a team is almost like a hobby...and many of them understand the "serving the public" aspect of owning a sports franchise. 

Mike couldn't give a rip about the fans or their perception of him.