Mike says Dalton should "re-establish himself" but FO needs to establish themselves

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 10:05 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Lawson , Howard and Clemons total contracts were 10 mil while they jettisoned Carson's salary which was 14 mil. Tell me again how they spend on top FA's.

So you judge players by how much they make instead of how well they play?

Guess you would have been thrilled if we had spent $120 million on Malcolm Butler and Nate Solder last year.  Who cares if they sucked?  They were "top free agents" because they got paid the most, right?

What kind of fan shits on his own team for building a top 10 defense through free agency?

[Catmandude123]

(05-12-2019, 09:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Jim Owszarski (sp?) the old beat writer confirmed here that because the Bengals tend to offer less guaranteed money on contracts, they make it up to players by offering more loyalty. That's pretty much why you don't see them cutting guys and restructuring contracts as often as other teams. 

His way is not a successful. We have learned that over the last 27 years.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-12-2019, 08:48 PM)OSUfan Wrote: It seems the only one griping about their scouting situation are fans who believe they know something about the internal operations of the franchise. It cracks me up. As a coach why would you not want to be heavily involved in the scouting process? I absolutely would want to be. I would want to know that the players we were looking to add to our team are the guys that I want to be coaching. Not sure why so many have such a problem with this.

Here is a good article:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2018/01/08/mike-brown-marvin-lewis-fact-fiction-cincinnati-bengals-cheap-players/1008947001/

Oh...well...as the college football season is during the NFL season, it seems like a coach would have more important things going on like...GAMEPLANNING! There's a reason why each other team has 2-3 times as many player personnel department employees than the Bengals. And coincidentally, we're the only team without a playoff win in 27+ years. Yeah, we do things differently.

Taylor has been here since early Feb. Are we expected to believe that he's:
Scouted college free agents
Scouted NFL free agents
Assessed the roster
Evaluated coaches
Hired coaches
Developed offensive and defensive philosophies
Developed an offensive playbook

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 10:20 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: He didn't BUY him he traded for him knowing he was going to be able to cut him if he couldn't perform. Basically a one year contract that he could renew at his discretion. Like I said earlier he isn't going to risk next years bottom line for the possibility to put the team over the top. That's my opinion from watching how he operates.

So Mike pays to bring in one of the highest paid players at his position and you shit on him because the contract was not guaranteed?

Are you serious?  That was a very savvy move by the front office, but you want to turn it into something bad?

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Taylor has been here since early Feb. Are we expected to believe that he's:
Scouted college free agents
Scouted NFL free agents
Assessed the roster
Evaluated coaches
Hired coaches
Developed offensive and defensive philosophies
Developed an offensive playbook

Why not.  It is his full time job.

Just look around these boards.  Everyone here has been able to make themselves and expert on all of these issues even though they don't have the training or experience to do it as efficiently as Taylor and his staff.  And most of the people here don't have 12 hours a day to devote to it.

Attnding college football games live is a complete waste of resources.  There is no way you can scout more than one player at a time watching the game live, and even then it is next to impossible to do it right without replay and slo mo.

[Catmandude123]

(05-12-2019, 10:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you judge players by how much they make instead of how well they play?

Guess you would have been thrilled if we had spent $120 million on Malcolm Butler and Nate Solder last year.  Who cares if they sucked?  They were "top free agents" because they got paid the most, right?

What kind of fan shits on his own team for building a top 10 defense through free agency?

And you judge success by three players who, according to you,  singlehandedly turned around a defense. Just how do you define success? Making the playoffs? Eleven other teams do that every year. Having a .500 record? You sound like you accept mediocracy. You accept the complete failure in prime time or important games. Excuse me if I am not. I know it's your modus operandi to argue your point which most of the time is against everyone who doesn't accept the same mediocracy like you do.

[Catmandude123]

(05-12-2019, 10:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Mike pays to bring in one of the highest paid players at his position and you shit on him because the contract was not guaranteed?

Are you serious?  That was a very savvy move by the front office, but you want to turn it into something bad?

Injury prone gamble. He was average at best last year. I'll use your quote about free agents "If he was so great why is his team letting him go". This was a Mike Brown NO-Risk deal. Take off your rose colored glasses.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 10:32 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: And you judge success by three players who, according to you,  singlehandedly turned around a defense. Just how do you define success? Making the playoffs? Eleven other teams do that every year. Having a .500 record? You sound like you accept mediocracy. You accept the complete failure in prime time or important games. Excuse me if I am not. I know it's your modus operandi to argue your point which most of the time is against everyone who doesn't accept the same mediocracy like you do.

Oh my god.  Not the "you accept mediocrity" line.  I always know I have won an argument when someone falls back on that BS.

While I have never been satisfied with losing playoff games I can acknowledge that building a defense that was top 10 in the league for five of six seasons is not failure.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 10:38 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Injury prone gamble. He was average at best last year. I'll use your quote about free agents "If he was so great why is his team letting him go". This was a Mike Brown NO-Risk deal. Take off your rose colored glasses.

This is getting ridiculous.

Me:  Other owners sign big name players that don't work out.
Cat:  But at least they are trying.  Mike does not even try.
Me:  Just last year he brought in the 8th highest paid takle in the league
Cat: That does not count because he paid a lot but it did not work out.
Me:  Other owners sign big name players that don't work out.
Cat:  But at least they are trying.  Mike does not even try.
Me:  Just last year he brought in the 8th highest paid takle in the league
Cat: That does not count because he paid a lot but it did not work out.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-12-2019, 10:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why not.  It is his full time job.

Just look around these boards.  Everyone here has been able to make themselves and expert on all of these issues even though they don't have the training or experience to do it as efficiently as Taylor and his staff.  And most of the people here don't have 12 hours a day to devote to it.

Attnding college football games live is a complete waste of resources.  There is no way you can scout more than one player at a time watching the game live, and even then it is next to impossible to do it right without replay and slo mo.

Do you think a person can be great at every single one of those roles?

Seems better to me that he specialize in...COACHING and creating a playbook.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-12-2019, 10:32 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: And you judge success by three players who, according to you,  singlehandedly turned around a defense. Just how do you define success? Making the playoffs? Eleven other teams do that every year. Having a .500 record? You sound like you accept mediocracy. You accept the complete failure in prime time or important games. Excuse me if I am not. I know it's your modus operandi to argue your point which most of the time is against everyone who doesn't accept the same mediocracy like you do.

My issue with Glenn is he was injured for the previous 2 seasons which is why Buffalo dumped him to go with a lower priced guy. But, the Bengals did spend in that case.

Letting Whitworth go and having Ced and Fisher flop really complicated things forcing them to trade for Glenn and bring in Hart and then overpay Hart. It's a comical chain of errors.

It kind of goes along with this years signings of Hart, Miller, and Webb. They spend money...just not on the right guys to improve the team.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-12-2019, 11:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: My issue with Glenn is he was injured for the previous 2 seasons which is why Buffalo dumped him to go with a lower priced guy. But, the Bengals did spend in that case.

Letting Whitworth go and having Ced and Fisher flop really complicated things forcing them to trade for Glenn and bring in Hart and then overpay Hart. It's a comical chain of errors.

Reminds me of when they let Housh go over a difference of $1 million per season, then signed Antonio Bryant, then Laverues Coles, then TO.

They didn't properly replace Housh until Marvin Jones. 

[THE PISTONS]

(05-12-2019, 11:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Reminds me of when they let Housh go over a difference of $1 million per season, then signed Antonio Bryant, then Laverues Coles, then TO.

They didn't properly replace Housh until Marvin Jones. 

When people say other teams will have cap hell...they neglect to notice all the free agents we lose:

Hall, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Zeitler, Nelson, and Whitworth to name some recently. So our 'efficient' cap management doesn't help us avoid that.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-12-2019, 11:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When people say other teams will have cap hell...they neglect to notice all the free agents we lose:

Hall, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Zeitler, Nelson, and Whitworth to name some recently. So our 'efficient' cap management doesn't help us avoid that.

Honestly when I hear people knocking Super Bowl teams for real or potential cap issues, it seems so odd to me. Are we saying we're happier with constant mediocrity than we would be with a SB appearance followed by a couple years of cap issues? Is that really where we're at? Heck, I'd trade 5 or maybe even 10 years of bad football for a championship run. I've been watching mostly bad football for 20+ years anyway.

[Whatever]

(05-12-2019, 11:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When people say other teams will have cap hell...they neglect to notice all the free agents we lose:

Hall, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Zeitler, Nelson, and Whitworth to name some recently. So our 'efficient' cap management doesn't help us avoid that.

Seriously? 

Hall was 30 and had two blown Achilles when the Bengals let him walk.  He was out of the league entirely last year.

Marvin was a good player in his prime, but he himself said he wanted to leave so he could be a #1 WR.  That wasn't happening here because we have AJ Green.  He's had one 1,000 yard season in his career.

Sanu crapped the bed in his contract year, with only 394 receiving yards and no TD's.  He's rebounded into a solid #3, but he's a complimentary piece, not a guy you build around.

Whit was 35 and nobody believed he'd be able to hold off father time as well as he has.

Zeitler was just traded because he was insanely overpaid.

Reggie was 32 when he left.  He's sitting out there unemployed right now if you still want him, although I think you would quantify him as a typical Bengals bargain bin signing.

[Whatever]

(05-12-2019, 09:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Those would all be top tier free agents by Bengals standards. I don't think we've signed that many decent free agents (in one off-season) since 2003. Whitworth was a high dollar signing that we almost never make. The rest of those guys would usually be the jewel of our FA class. 

Well, Barwin, Webster, and Sullivan are all unemployed right now.  Woods was frankly very cheap for a guy they immediately penciled in as a starting WR.  Whit was really the only one you wouldn't see them making between money and age.  

It's just funny that someone is considering these guys quality free agents when two were scrubs, one was washed up and only decent to begin with, one was about a top Bengals FA move, and one was a massive gamble due to age and injury history.

[Whatever]

(05-12-2019, 08:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You attempt to minimize what the Rams do. But, Whitworth made the Pro Bowl twice so far and I believe he graded out as the Top Tackle on PFF.

Sullivan vastly upgraded them at Center? Why did they let him go as a free agent? Well because they drafted his replacement a couple years ago.

In 2018, Woods had 86 receptions for 1219 yards and 157 rushing yards. That's a REALLY GOOD signing.

So 3 guys who were vast upgrades to what they had. And Watkins had almost 600 yards receiving in his year there.

In Taylor's 1st year here, we added Hart, Miller, and Webb. I doubt that we'll be talking about the great years any of those guys had.

Whit turned out to be a a great pickup, but the odds were way against it due to his age and injury history.

Sullivan sucks.  He had a 52.7 PFF grade last year, significantly worse than Bobby Hart.  But you're trying to spin this scrub as a quality FA signing.  There's a reason he's still unemployed.

Woods was a B tier FA that exceeded expectations.  He never topped 700 yards or 5 TD's before signing with the Rams.  Sanu got slightly more per year than Woods.

Out of all those guys, you basically had two good pickups, and both of those have performed at a higher level than you reasonably could have expected.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2019, 11:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Do you think a person can be great at every single one of those roles?

A scout probably doesn't have the skills needed to be a coach, but if a coach does not have the skills to evaluate talent he will be a failure as a coach.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-13-2019, 12:31 AM)Whatever Wrote: Seriously? 

Hall was 30 and had two blown Achilles when the Bengals let him walk.  He was out of the league entirely last year.

Marvin was a good player in his prime, but he himself said he wanted to leave so he could be a #1 WR.  That wasn't happening here because we have AJ Green.  He's had one 1,000 yard season in his career.

Sanu crapped the bed in his contract year, with only 394 receiving yards and no TD's.  He's rebounded into a solid #3, but he's a complimentary piece, not a guy you build around.

Whit was 35 and nobody believed he'd be able to hold off father time as well as he has.

Zeitler was just traded because he was insanely overpaid.

Reggie was 32 when he left.  He's sitting out there unemployed right now if you still want him, although I think you would quantify him as a typical Bengals bargain bin signing.

You can try to devalue the players we lost all you want. By not signing them, we had cap space to sign Hart, Miller, and Webb. Yay!


The bottom line is we lost a bunch of good players and didn't replace them with equal value players in most cases for 2-3 years IF we ever have.

The Result: 3 losing seasons.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-13-2019, 12:43 AM)Whatever Wrote: Well, Barwin, Webster, and Sullivan are all unemployed right now.  Woods was frankly very cheap for a guy they immediately penciled in as a starting WR.  Whit was really the only one you wouldn't see them making between money and age.  

It's just funny that someone is considering these guys quality free agents when two were scrubs, one was washed up and only decent to begin with, one was about a top Bengals FA move, and one was a massive gamble due to age and injury history.

Woods had over 1200 yards receiving this past season. Whitworth has been a Pro Bowl Tackle both years.

I don't know what you are arguing? The Bengals have been terrible over the past 3 years. The Rams have been great the past 2.