How To Make the Defense Legit

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2019, 10:58 AM)bengals67 Wrote: I agree 100% with this assessment.

An above average D line would not have allowed the record yards rushing Bengals gave up last year.

Believe the Linebackers had more to do with this...

[*ochocincos*]

(05-14-2019, 10:57 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I usually agree with you on pretty much everything Ocho but i disagree here.

Lawson when healthy is a terror on the edge and Hubbard was great for a rookie last season. Willis needs to come on that is for sure but i think we have a very good End rotation and Geno is not just good, he is a top 5 DT easily. Billings got better last year and Glasgow has been really good since he came in the league.

As of right now, you are 100% dependent on the health of Lawson to be a top 10 unit. Hubbard is a solid piece, but without Lawson healthy this unit is not top 10. So my statement, as of this moment, is correct because you have to guarantee (at least) one of Lawson's health (although that only covers the pass rush side, not run stopping) and/or Hubbard/Willis taking the next step. Also, who takes over at nickel DT? That's unknown right now and whether the person(s) who take this role is actually good at it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2019, 12:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: As of right now, you are 100% dependent on the health of Lawson to be a top 10 unit. Hubbard is a solid piece, but without Lawson healthy this unit is not top 10. So my statement, as of this moment, is correct because you have to guarantee (at least) one of Lawson's health (although that only covers the pass rush side, not run stopping) and/or Hubbard/Willis taking the next step. Also, who takes over at nickel DT? That's unknown right now and whether the person(s) who take this role is actually good at it.

Yeah, these guys have to be healthy to be top 10, i am with you there.

Think Glasgow can be that Nickel DT but he has to get healthy too.

Really like the addition of Wren but he is more of a NT to back up Billings.

[fredtoast]

….Stay healthy.  Preston Brown was injured the first game of the season.  He returned a month later, but I feel he was still limited.  Brown actually graded pretty well in pass coverage when with the Bills.  I think he will be better this year if he stays healthy.  A lot of other key defensive players missed time last year.  Glasgow (13 games), Lawson (9), Vigil (6), Dennard (3), Kirkpatrick (3), Evans (2).

….Replace Burfict.  I was as big of a Burfict fan as anyone here, but he did not even look like the same player last year.  I don't know if the problem was physical or mental, but he was nothing like the player he used to be.

….Improve tackling.  I don't have any numbers to back this up, but we seemed to have a ton of broken tackles last year.  A lot of time coaches take the blame when they really don't have the talent they need, but when an entire team seems to have the same flaw, like poor tackling, that is usually a coaching issue.

….Get some production from Pratt and Wren.  (see: replace Burfict)

[HarleyDog]

(05-14-2019, 12:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: ….Stay healthy.  Preston Brown was injured the first game of the season.  He returned a month later, but I feel he was still limited.  Brown actually graded pretty well in pass coverage when with the Bills.  I think he will be better this year if he stays healthy.  A lot of other key defensive players missed time last year.  Glasgow (13 games), Lawson (9), Vigil (6), Dennard (3), Kirkpatrick (3), Evans (2).

….Replace Burfict.  I was as big of a Burfict fan as anyone here, but he did not even look like the same player last year.  I don't know if the problem was physical or mental, but he was nothing like the player he used to be.

….Improve tackling.  I don't have any numbers to back this up, but we seemed to have a ton of broken tackles last year.  A lot of time coaches take the blame when they really don't have the talent they need, but when an entire team seems to have the same flaw, like poor tackling, that is usually a coaching issue.

Your correct on all points. We were not healthy last year and it hurt pretty bad. I felt the LBs played better till Burfict came back (which seemed slow and out of shape) and seemed to head off a cliff immediately after. As for tackling, we've been struggling with this for a few years. Last year seemed to be huge improvement the first couple games the something happened and they looked horrible again. Then they went from horrible to just downright ugly as the year progressed. 

[J24]

(05-14-2019, 10:47 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The secondary as a whole is better than average.
The DL is not a top 10 DL. Atkins and Dunlap are good. The Bengals need a consistent threat besides those two. As it stands, someone is going to have to step up in order for that to happen.

Throw in a healthy Carl Lawson you have your third guy plus Hubbard had Six sacks last season. Not to mention Billings is a pretty good NT. Dline will shine this year if injuries are not an issue.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-14-2019, 12:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, these guys have to be healthy to be top 10, i am with you there.

Think Glasgow can be that Nickel DT but he has to get healthy too.

Really like the addition of Wren but he is more of a NT to back up Billings.

Interestingly, I find Glasgow to be better on the run defense side than the pass rush, but I don't see him as a NT either. I actually think Wren has more potential as a pass rusher than Glasgow but he has enough size to play either DT spot. I think ultimately it will have to be Hubbard, Willis, or Wynn playing nickel DT if you want a better pass rush, not Glasgow. Glasgow is good against the run though.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-14-2019, 01:57 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Throw in a healthy Carl Lawson you have your third guy plus Hubbard had Six sacks last season. Not to mention Billings is a pretty good NT. Dline will shine this year if injuries are not an issue.

Yes, if Lawson can stay healthy. If he doesn't, you'll see the same as you saw last year. Just meh.

[J24]

(05-14-2019, 01:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, if Lawson can stay healthy. If he doesn't, you'll see the same as you saw last year. Just meh.

True but you can say that about any D line if the Rams lose Donald there D line goes to shit, if the Broncos loose Miller there line goes to shit, and if the Bears lose Mack they go to shit. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2019, 01:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Interestingly, I find Glasgow to be better on the run defense side than the pass rush, but I don't see him as a NT either. I actually think Wren has more potential as a pass rusher than Glasgow but he has enough size to play either DT spot. I think ultimately it will have to be Hubbard, Willis, or Wynn playing nickel DT if you want a better pass rush, not Glasgow. Glasgow is good against the run though.

Funny how Glasgow doesn't seem to be a big DT but he is a damn good run stopper.

Then a guy like Wren is a monster but has that explosion and quick first step to be a pass rusher.

I can see a little Suh in Wren if coached up correctly, he has physical tools you just cannot teach.

What about Dunlap playing Nickel DT at times?

[PAjwPhilly]

(05-14-2019, 03:24 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Funny how Glasgow doesn't seem to be a big DT but he is a damn good run stopper.

Then a guy like Wren is a monster but has that explosion and quick first step to be a pass rusher.

I can see a little Suh in Wren if coached up correctly, he has physical tools you just cannot teach.

What about Dunlap playing Nickel DT at times?

Who would be the superior rusher off the edge replacing Dunlap? We have Lawson/ Hubbard. 

I would maybe put Willis inside or keep Wren as the rusher and keep Dunlap.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2019, 05:14 PM)PAjwPhilly Wrote: Who would be the superior rusher off the edge replacing Dunlap? We have Lawson/ Hubbard. 

I would maybe put Willis inside or keep Wren as the rusher and keep Dunlap.

Yeah, that is who i was thinking, but yeah, probably a better idea to keep Dunlap on the outside and move Willis inside as the Nickel DT if he improves. He looked like a big, buff bastid last year he just didn't produce. Hope this is the year Willis becomes that stud i thought he might be, he is a good run stopper and maybe moving him to the inside would help him out as he could really use his speed.

We saw how MJ was only good on the inside the last couple years or so, maybe the same will happen for Willis.

[impactplaya]

how many defensive players played at a high level last year for the majority of the season?
Atkins played at elite level in the 1st 8 games then his production dropped off.
Dunlap was invisable in the 2nd half of last year.
Hubbard came on strong in the last q. of the season.
Jessie Bates actually was consistant for most of the year.
Shawn Williams IMO was the best player on defense all year
WJ was playing at a all pro level toward the end.
this defense needs guys at all 3 levels of the defense to play a great to elite level
in order for the defense to improve and take that jump.
Dunlap has to somehow put up 10 plus sacks and actually finish the QB off
Lawson needs to become a force on 3rd down.
Nick Vigil has to start making more plays before the 1st down sticks
hes has shown zero ability to make dynamic plays.
Pratt hopefully can be that gamechanger so sorely missed.
but these young guys need to start making meanigful plays and not being pile jumpers
a offense that can create leads will be a huge help.
and better coaching and scheme for sure

[*Synric*]

Consistently making a QB move off his spot off in under 2.5 seconds makes your defense as a whole look better.

You win football games at the Line of Scrimmage.

[NKURyan]

I'm really excited to see what Anarumo can do with Jackson and Bates. People act like the guy's never accomplished anything as a coach, but he has a pretty good track record of developing secondary guys into Pro Bowlers.

[*Synric*]

(05-14-2019, 09:02 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I'm really excited to see what Anarumo can do with Jackson and Bates. People act like the guy's never accomplished anything as a coach, but he has a pretty good track record of developing secondary guys into Pro Bowlers.

And Shawn Williams he was really under rated last year.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-14-2019, 06:08 PM)impactplaya Wrote: how many defensive players played at a high level last year for the majority of the season?
Atkins played at elite level in the 1st 8 games then his production dropped off.
Dunlap was invisable in the 2nd half of last year.
Hubbard came on strong in the last q. of the season.
Jessie Bates actually was consistant for most of the year.
Shawn Williams IMO was the best player on defense all year
WJ was playing at a all pro level toward the end.
this defense needs guys at all 3 levels of the defense to play a great to elite level
in order for the defense to improve and take that jump.
Dunlap has to somehow put up 10 plus sacks and actually finish the QB off
Lawson needs to become a force on 3rd down.
Nick Vigil has to start making more plays before the 1st down sticks
hes has shown zero ability to make dynamic plays.
Pratt hopefully can be that gamechanger so sorely missed.
but these young guys need to start making meanigful plays and not being pile jumpers
a offense that can create leads will be a huge help.
and better coaching and scheme for sure

Believe the same.

(05-14-2019, 08:59 PM)Synric Wrote: Consistently making a QB move off his spot off in under 2.5 seconds makes your defense as a whole look better.

You win football games at the Line of Scrimmage.

The truth.

(05-14-2019, 09:02 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I'm really excited to see what Anarumo can do with Jackson and Bates. People act like the guy's never accomplished anything as a coach, but he has a pretty good track record of developing secondary guys into Pro Bowlers.

Landon Collins was a stud for him with the Giants.

(05-14-2019, 09:14 PM)Synric Wrote: And Shawn Williams he was really under rated last year.

Yes he was and led our team in interceptions if i am not mistaken and that is with the ballhawk Bates next to him.

[*bengalfan74*]

Michael Johnson had 467 snaps last season and a large portion of the was at RDE a tad over 41% of our plays on defense and he was largely ineffective.

Hardy Nickerson had 538 snaps at LBer almost 48% of the defensive snaps and he was very, very bad.

Vontaze Burfict had 298 snaps, over 26% of the defensive plays and he wasn't even a shadow of his former self.

Just replacing these threes snaps with even average players improves our D, a lot !

Ya see one thing people tend to not give enough weight to is the domino effect. You have one guy on D not getting it done it makes it tough on the remaining ten. You have two guys it's a herculean task to overcome. You have three, forget it ! There's just no way 8 guys can play D facing 11.

[impactplaya]

Im.actually rather high on this defense.despite not adding a real proven big time LB , there is still some young talent under 30 years old
WJ
Bates
Williams
Hubbard
Lawson
Dennard
Wren
Billings
Fedjalam
Phillips
Worley
these guys are young.but better to.be making errors at 1000 miles per hour with spirit and hunger than just showing up and doing enough to get by.
I think Germaine Pratt will be starting Wk 1 and he could be our Darius Leonard.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(05-14-2019, 11:40 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Believe the Linebackers had more to do with this...

Please don’t think I’m holding the Cincinnati linebackers blameless because I’m not, but sometimes linebackers have to become a safety net for less than stellar defensive line play. In 2018, the linebackers were so horrible they couldn’t shoot gaps, couldn’t tackle, and this put way too much pressure on the defensive line especially against the run.

My personal belief is Teryl Austin saw the defense as three units — line, linebackers, and secondary — instead of one. Leaving the secondary aside, the defensive line and linebackers really have to be treated as one entity since they work together. Marvin Lewis seemed to understand this concept more.

From the interviews I’ve seen with Lou Anarumo he always talks about his base defense being a 4-3 but he also includes which gaps he’ll line people up over. This is a key to knowing we have a good defensive coordinator. He understands both scheme and spacing. Now go one level up and this spacing dictates where linebackers should go when the ball is snapped.

Last season the Cincinnati linebackers set up way too far behind the defensive line. On obvious pass plays this can work but there’s no way to blitz if you’re ten yards off the ball. Watch the best teams’ linebackers: They're always moving, resetting, and trying to confuse the opposing quarterback. Not the Bengals! The linebackers in Cincinnati find a spot and freeze. This drives me nuts. Mike Zimmer didn’t teach that. Paul Guenther didn’t teach that.

Jim Haslett was a lazy skunk.

Tem Lokabu needs to get those guys moving!