Cap Situation

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2019, 12:18 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: at this point unless there is an injury to a key player I think that's the smart move... lock boyd down.  get a few other extenstions out of the way.

This.  They will extend Boyd.  That will be about it.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2019, 12:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: dude get a clue  that money isn't going into anyones pockets but the players if they don't spend it they roll it over to next year to spend it...


ignorance and bias is clear and sad.

He knows better.  I have explained it to him before.

He is just trolling.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-21-2019, 10:12 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: While true, why create a logjam at a position where we don't have any true weaknesses?

I would rather...


... spend the money this way, extending our guys and using whatever leftover space to frontload crap.

That makes more sense, to me anyways.

I agree with Truck, would rather extend AJ and Boyd before the season starts...

[THE PISTONS]

Suh to Tampa Bay on a 1 year deal.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-21-2019, 06:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Suh to Tampa Bay on a 1 year deal.

Trying to replace McCoy i see. This hurts the Rams a bit. That is the thing with the Rams, they put a lot of money into FA and once these guys contracts are up they could be in a bad place. Needed to win that Superbowl last year as i think they had a real short window and it is closing quick.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-21-2019, 12:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: dude get a clue  that money isn't going into anyones pockets but the players if they don't spend it they roll it over to next year to spend it...


ignorance and bias is clear and sad.

Even if they spend it, it is 1 year later. The Bengals are listed at ~$22.4m in cap space. If you only just throw that into a basic savings account rather than invest it and get more interest, it's still like 2.2%, which of $22.4m is still half a million dollars you get from delaying spending it a year, and I think we all know he is getting more than 2.2% on his money.

That said, the majority will eventually go to players thanks to the CBA that put a salary floor into effect.

Still, the Bengals are pretty much always towards the top in cap space every year.... 
2011: 9th
2012: 3rd
2013: 9th
2014: 6th
2015: 13th
2016: 21st
2017: 13th
2018: 11th
2019: 13th
AVERAGE: 10.8

Only one year lower than 13th in cap space in the Dalton era. Meanwhile here is the rankings of Super Bowl winners during those years:
2011: Giants 26th
2012: Ravens 29th
2013: Seahawks 18th
2014: Patriots 14th
2015: Broncos 18th
2016: Patriots 9th
2017: Eagles 24th
2018: Patriots 24th
AVERAGE: 20.3

Only twice in the Dalton era has the SB winning team been better than 18th in cap space remaining, and both of those were the Patriots, and good luck finding a HoF QB who's willing to take less money in order to recreate that scenario. Even then they are nearly averaging out to be 10 ranks lower.

The Bengals consistently have more cap space than the most successful teams in the league. Of course the key isn't just to spend that money, but also to spend it WISELY. (Looking at you, Uzomah, Hart, Miller, Brown, Kirkpatrick, Maualuga, M Johnson, V Rey, LaFell, etc.)

[THE PISTONS]

(05-21-2019, 06:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Trying to replace McCoy i see. This hurts the Rams a bit. That is the thing with the Rams, they put a lot of money into FA and once these guys contracts are up they could be in a bad place. Needed to win that Superbowl last year as i think they had a real short window and it is closing quick.

I think the Rams knew Suh was a 1 year rental.

Yeah...in general you need to hit on a bunch of rookies to maintain success, then replace them with more Rookie deals.

It happened to us. After 5 playoffs in a row, we lost a bunch of guys coming off of rookie deals...and then some veterans that were signed to nice deals. Then, our influx of draft picks didn't pan out in a lot of cases.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-21-2019, 07:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if they spend it, it is 1 year later. The Bengals are listed at ~$22.4m in cap space. If you only just throw that into a basic savings account rather than invest it and get more interest, it's still like 2.2%, which of $22.4m is still half a million dollars you get from delaying spending it a year, and I think we all know he is getting more than 2.2% on his money.

That said, the majority will eventually go to players thanks to the CBA that put a salary floor into effect.

Still, the Bengals are pretty much always towards the top in cap space every year.... 
2011: 9th
2012: 3rd
2013: 9th
2014: 6th
2015: 13th
2016: 21st
2017: 13th
2018: 11th
2019: 13th
AVERAGE: 10.8

Only one year lower than 13th in cap space in the Dalton era. Meanwhile here is the rankings of Super Bowl winners during those years:
2011: Giants 26th
2012: Ravens 29th
2013: Seahawks 18th
2014: Patriots 14th
2015: Broncos 18th
2016: Patriots 9th
2017: Eagles 24th
2018: Patriots 24th
AVERAGE: 20.3

Only twice in the Dalton era has the SB winning team been better than 18th in cap space remaining, and both of those were the Patriots, and good luck finding a HoF QB who's willing to take less money in order to recreate that scenario. Even then they are nearly averaging out to be 10 ranks lower.

The Bengals consistently have more cap space than the most successful teams in the league. Of course the key isn't just to spend that money, but also to spend it WISELY. (Looking at you, Uzomah, Hart, Miller, Brown, Kirkpatrick, Maualuga, M Johnson, V Rey, LaFell, etc.)

That's some great analysis!

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(05-21-2019, 12:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: dude get a clue  that money isn't going into anyones pockets but the players if they don't spend it they roll it over to next year to spend it...


ignorance and bias is clear and sad.

If the team continually rolls over cap year after year it has never paid that money out, it is simple math. This team has rolled over cap every year since they were allowed to do so. And they have no doubt the lowest cost, or near lowest cost front office. Profit, profit, profit. never win, never win, never win.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-22-2019, 10:08 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: If the team continually rolls over cap year after year it has never paid that money out, it is simple math. This team has rolled over cap every year since they were allowed to do so. And they have no doubt the lowest cost, or near lowest cost front office. Profit, profit, profit. never win, never win, never win.

I wish when we had really good rosters in 2014/2015 that we would have went out and upgraded at Center or got that LB that could cover a TE. Maybe we would have won a playoff game then?

Instead we rolled cap space over. The premise was that we wouldn't mortgage the future for the present, but we missed the playoffs each of the past 3 years anyways.

[BengalChris]

(05-21-2019, 09:54 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Would you Rather...

Sign McCoy for a year or 2 or extend Boyd and AJ before the season start?


I don't know if we can do all of that with whats left depends on mccoys salary demands...  but there are several good DL still on the market


not sure how up to date this is but it shows we still have about 22 mil left

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

should be enough to do 2 out of the 3

I don't understand the numbers on spotrac.com for the Bengals. It shows we have $19M in cap space when you count the top 51 contracts and for All contracts we have only $313,322 in cap space. If we only have $300k in cap space we aren't extending anyone. It's so unlike Mike Brown to not have at least $15M in free cap space going into training camp.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can the bottom contracts (the ones which are not in the top 51) count as $19M?

Maybe someone who understand this could give us (or me) some help to understand it.

 

[THE PISTONS]

(05-22-2019, 11:48 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't understand the numbers on spotrac.com for the Bengals. It shows we have $19M in cap space when you count the top 51 contracts and for All contracts we have only $313,322 in cap space. If we only have $300k in cap space we aren't extending anyone. It's so unlike Mike Brown to not have at least $15M in free cap space going into training camp.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can the bottom contracts (the ones which are not in the top 51) count as $19M?

Maybe someone who understand this could give us (or me) some help to understand it.

 

Aren't there like 90 guys in camp at this point?

If you take $250k X 40 = That's like $12 million.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 10:08 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: If the team continually rolls over cap year after year it has never paid that money out, it is simple math. 

Simple math, but ignorant of facts.

The bengals have actually spent OVER the league cap because of cap space they have rolled over.

[BengalChris]

(05-22-2019, 12:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Aren't there like 90 guys in camp at this point?

If you take $250k X 40 = That's like $12 million.

Yeah, but don't *all* contracts count against the cap space? That's what i don't understand.

[t3r3e3]

(05-21-2019, 07:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if they spend it, it is 1 year later. The Bengals are listed at ~$22.4m in cap space. If you only just throw that into a basic savings account rather than invest it and get more interest, it's still like 2.2%, which of $22.4m is still half a million dollars you get from delaying spending it a year, and I think we all know he is getting more than 2.2% on his money.

That said, the majority will eventually go to players thanks to the CBA that put a salary floor into effect.

Still, the Bengals are pretty much always towards the top in cap space every year.... 
2011: 9th
2012: 3rd
2013: 9th
2014: 6th
2015: 13th
2016: 21st
2017: 13th
2018: 11th
2019: 13th
AVERAGE: 10.8

Only one year lower than 13th in cap space in the Dalton era. Meanwhile here is the rankings of Super Bowl winners during those years:
2011: Giants 26th
2012: Ravens 29th
2013: Seahawks 18th
2014: Patriots 14th
2015: Broncos 18th
2016: Patriots 9th
2017: Eagles 24th
2018: Patriots 24th
AVERAGE: 20.3

Only twice in the Dalton era has the SB winning team been better than 18th in cap space remaining, and both of those were the Patriots, and good luck finding a HoF QB who's willing to take less money in order to recreate that scenario. Even then they are nearly averaging out to be 10 ranks lower.

The Bengals consistently have more cap space than the most successful teams in the league. Of course the key isn't just to spend that money, but also to spend it WISELY. (Looking at you, Uzomah, Hart, Miller, Brown, Kirkpatrick, Maualuga, M Johnson, V Rey, LaFell, etc.)

Good analysis. The Bengals are also consistently less successful than the upper echelon organizations. You can’t bargain bin your way to a Super Bowl trophy. 28 years of trying has proven this.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2019, 07:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if they spend it, it is 1 year later. The Bengals are listed at ~$22.4m in cap space. If you only just throw that into a basic savings account rather than invest it and get more interest, it's still like 2.2%, which of $22.4m is still half a million dollars you get from delaying spending it a year, and I think we all know he is getting more than 2.2% on his money.

That said, the majority will eventually go to players thanks to the CBA that put a salary floor into effect.

Still, the Bengals are pretty much always towards the top in cap space every year.... 
2011: 9th
2012: 3rd
2013: 9th
2014: 6th
2015: 13th
2016: 21st
2017: 13th
2018: 11th
2019: 13th
AVERAGE: 10.8

Only one year lower than 13th in cap space in the Dalton era. Meanwhile here is the rankings of Super Bowl winners during those years:
2011: Giants 26th
2012: Ravens 29th
2013: Seahawks 18th
2014: Patriots 14th
2015: Broncos 18th
2016: Patriots 9th
2017: Eagles 24th
2018: Patriots 24th
AVERAGE: 20.3

Only twice in the Dalton era has the SB winning team been better than 18th in cap space remaining, and both of those were the Patriots, and good luck finding a HoF QB who's willing to take less money in order to recreate that scenario. Even then they are nearly averaging out to be 10 ranks lower.

The Bengals consistently have more cap space than the most successful teams in the league. Of course the key isn't just to spend that money, but also to spend it WISELY. (Looking at you, Uzomah, Hart, Miller, Brown, Kirkpatrick, Maualuga, M Johnson, V Rey, LaFell, etc.)

Cap space does not mean a lot because it does not tell you how much teams are actually spending.

For example in 2018 the Patriots had less cap space, but that was because they had a lower team cap than the Bengals.

Bengals cap was $180.3 million with $8.5 cap space.....$171.8 used
Patriots cap was $176.0 million with $4.3 cap space......$171.7 used

So while the amount spent was almost identical TheLeap would have you believe that the Pats spent a lot more because they were 24th in cap spacxe while the Bengals were 11th.

[Whatever]

(05-23-2019, 09:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Cap space does not mean a lot because it does not tell you how much teams are actually spending.

For example in 2018 the Patriots had less cap space, but that was because they had a lower team cap than the Bengals.

Bengals cap was $180.3 million with $8.5 cap space.....$171.8 used
Patriots cap was $176.0 million with $4.3 cap space......$171.7 used

So while the amount spent was almost identical TheLeap would have you believe that the Pats spent a lot more because they were 24th in cap spacxe while the Bengals were 11th.

The difference in cap space isn't a huge number, either.  $4.2 mil is a decent backup or a crappy starter at a non premium position in today's environment.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-23-2019, 09:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Cap space does not mean a lot because it does not tell you how much teams are actually spending.

For example in 2018 the Patriots had less cap space, but that was because they had a lower team cap than the Bengals.

Bengals cap was $180.3 million with $8.5 cap space.....$171.8 used
Patriots cap was $176.0 million with $4.3 cap space......$171.7 used

So while the amount spent was almost identical TheLeap would have you believe that the Pats spent a lot more because they were 24th in cap spacxe while the Bengals were 11th.

You're right, spending up to the cap is great, but HOW it's spent is another story.

[fredtoast]

(05-23-2019, 10:37 AM)Whatever Wrote: The difference in cap space isn't a huge number, either.  $4.2 mil is a decent backup or a crappy starter at a non premium position in today's environment.

But another way of looking at it is that there is a huge difference between a $4 million free agent and a $8.2 million player at the same position.

(05-23-2019, 01:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You're right, spending up to the cap is great, but HOW it's spent is another story.

Agree 100%.   I understand why we re-signed Hart.  I don't know why we paid him so much.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-23-2019, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But another way of looking at it is that there is a huge difference between a $4 million free agent and a $8.2 million player at the same position.




Agree 100%.   I understand why we re-signed Hart.  I don't know why we paid him so much.

See...we agree on Hart. That's exactly where I'm at.

Had they waited him out and let him see that no one wanted him, maybe they land him for $2-3 million. People will say we need a backup Tackle, but we know that when he starts he's one of the worst in the league.

Maybe, putting Hart's money and Millers money and Webbs money together they could have signed 2 good players.

And yes there were other guys worth signing out there.