Initial Reactions To New Coaches From A Vet

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 02:30 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I'm a Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton supporter and always have been, but if you want to see complete proof of Marvin's lack of accountability just look at how he coddled Andy over the years. Has he ever been critical of the guy?

You seriously believe that the reason Marvin did not win here is because he did not rip Dalton for his poor performances?

Marvin has repeatedly said that Dalton had to work and imrove?  What more do you expect him to say.  I'll bet if he did rip Dalton you would be saying Marvin was a bad coach for throwing his QB under the bus.

Funny how so many fans think that all it takes to get players to perform better is to criticize them in public.  Personally I don't see how that helps improve a team at all.

If coaching was a simple as telling players to not make mistakes in public then we would all be winning Super Bowls.

[NKURyan]

(05-22-2019, 05:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You seriously believe that the reason Marvin did not win here is because he did not rip Dalton for his poor performances?

No, you're putting words into my mouth.

I think players and people in general tend to do better when they've got a fire lit under their ass. When I think of Marvin's comments on Andy over the years it was always "Andy did great", "it's not Andy", "Andy's doing exactly what he should", etc. Everything is always someone else's fault. Again, if you're going to call out some players (ie, John Ross) and not others, that's pretty much the opposite of accountability. Accountability is holding everyone to the same high standards, not a handful of guys while you let others get away with anything. If you don't hold some players accountable, you're not coaching accountability. And yeah, I think THAT plays a big part in the drop in performance of several key players over the last few seasons which ultimately cost him his job.

The irony of a guy who constantly points out how "we don't know what Person X is saying behind closed doors" jumping to conclusions about how I'd respond to a hypothetical situation is pretty comical. If we're going to play that game, I'll go ahead and posit that if people were in here giving Marvin props for holding players accountable you'd be crying from the mountain that that's never been the case and we're all stupid for not seeing it.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 06:06 PM)NKURyan Wrote: The irony of a guy who constantly points out how "we don't know what Person X is saying behind closed doors" jumping to conclusions about how I'd respond to a hypothetical situation is pretty comical.

No need to talk about hypotheticals.  Just go to any thread about Marvin holding John Ross accountable.

I don't just make this stuff up.

Fans rip Marvin for not holding players accountable, and then they rip Marvin when he does hold a player accountable.

Now tell me how many head coaches throw their starting QB under the bus on a regular basis.  Marvin has made plenty of comments about Dalton needing to improve and be more consistent.  I don't know what else you expect him to say.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-22-2019, 06:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No need to talk about hypotheticals.  Just go to any thread about Marvin holding John Ross accountable.

I don't just make this stuff up.

Fans rip Marvin for not holding players accountable, and then they rip Marvin when he does hold a player accountable.

Now tell me how many head coaches throw their starting QB under the bus on a regular basis.  Marvin has made plenty of comments about Dalton needing to improve and be more consistent.  I don't know what else you expect him to say.

You pretty much always defend Marvin though Fred.

He doesn't need any defending man, he isn't in court dude.

Most all of us recognize the good things he did, but it is nice to see a change and see how things are different under Taylor.

[NKURyan]

(05-22-2019, 06:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No need to talk about hypotheticals.  Just go to any thread about Marvin holding John Ross accountable.

I don't just make this stuff up.

Fans rip Marvin for not holding players accountable, and then they rip Marvin when he does hold a player accountable.

Now tell me how many head coaches throw their starting QB under the bus on a regular basis.  Marvin has made plenty of comments about Dalton needing to improve and be more consistent.  I don't know what else you expect him to say.

John Ross (1st round pick) fumbled on an end around play two seasons ago and was promptly benched. Billy Price's (1st round pick) bad snapping put Andy Dalton out for the season with an injury and wasn't punished at all, despite his mistake being a WAY bigger deal and having a proven capable backup behind him. THAT'S THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

You do understand that "being critical of" is not the same thing as "throwing them under the bus", right? But if you want coaches that were actually critical of their QBs last season, here's a start: Adam Gase, John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Hue Jackson, Doug Marrone, Mike Zimmer, Tampa Bay's coach... probably more, but those are some I remember hearing from at points throughout the season while Marvin was running out the same old cliches everytime his QB was brought up.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 07:12 PM)NKURyan Wrote: John Ross (1st round pick) fumbled on an end around play two seasons ago and was promptly benched. Billy Price's (1st round pick) bad snapping put Andy Dalton out for the season with an injury and wasn't punished at all, despite his mistake being a WAY bigger deal and having a proven capable backup behind him. THAT'S THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

John Ross did not know the playbook and gave up on routes.  Price just made a rookie mistake.  Thanks for proving my point.  You complain about him not holding players accountable, and you also complain about him holding players accountable.  No matter what he does you will complain.

(05-22-2019, 07:12 PM)NKURyan Wrote: You do understand that "being critical of" is not the same thing as "throwing them under the bus", right? But if you want coaches that were actually critical of their QBs last season, here's a start: Adam Gase, John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, Hue Jackson, Doug Marrone, Mike Zimmer, Tampa Bay's coach... probably more, but those are some I remember hearing from at points throughout the season while Marvin was running out the same old cliches everytime his QB was brought up.

I'll make you a sig bet that whatever those coaches said about their QBs I can find Marvin saying the same thing about Dalton.  It is a complete lie to claim that Marvin never said Dalton has to get better and be more consistent.  You just hear what you want to hear.

[NKURyan]

(05-22-2019, 07:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: John Ross did not know the playbook and gave up on routes.  Price just made a rookie mistake.  Thanks for proving my point.  You complain about him not holding players accountable, and you also complain about him holding players accountable.  No matter what he does you will complain.




I'll make you a sig bet that whatever those coaches said about their QBs I can find Marvin saying the same thing about Dalton.  It is a complete lie to claim that Marvin never said Dalton has to get better and be more consistent.  You just hear what you want to hear.

John Ross wasn't benched after giving up on a route, he was benched for dropping the ball on a reverse play that he actually gained decent yardage on - he made a rookie mistake. One guy is held responsible, one guy gets let off the hook, and you want to excuse it like Marvin holds everyone to the same standard. Ross may have been bad, but guess what - Price was pretty damn bad last year too.

As a teacher, if I held my students to separate sets of standards on a whim I wouldn't have a job for very long. As a faculty we don't talk about holding some students accountable while letting others go, we talk about holding ALL students accountable to the SAME standards.  I gave you a plain-as-day example of two first round draft picks being treated completely differently, and you want to pretend that Marvin held everyone equally accountable. Whatever.

You want to look up some quotes? OK. Let's look at how accountable Marvin held Andy after the worst game of his career against the Browns in 2014, a game in which the Bengals got pantsed on primetime while fighting for a postseason birth, when Andy's in the midst of a 4 game stretch where he's struggling mightily AND has more INTs than TDs for the year - he'd been pretty damn bad. "He will break out of this night", "He'll come out of this and be fine", "No (when asked if he considered benching him)", "We do things the way we're supposed to do it most of the time". Wow, he really grilled him there. No "we really need Andy to play up to what he's capable of", no "we can't do what we want to do with Andy playing this way", no "Andy really needs to make better decisions with the football". No wonder Andy's performance stayed pretty consistent with what it had been the rest of the season - why put pressure on him to do any better? But sure, go ahead and find a smattering of quotes to make yourself feel better.

Want to look at quotes from after the Bengals/Steelers playoff implosion? On Vontaze Burfict: "Calls went different ways", "They deemed that to be a hit to the head I guess, and others not". On Jeremy Hill: "No [I haven't talked to him after the game]". On Adam Jones: "I'm not going to single out our guys". Wow, way to hold those guys accountable after the biggest and most painful implosion in the last two decades of Bengals history. I can't imagine why anyone thinks Marvin doesn't hold guys accountable. Are you kidding?

(Every quote I included comes straight from the postgame quotes on Bengals.com)

"You just hear what you want to hear"? Dude, please. You're covering your eyes and ears as much as anybody. You can be a huge fan of Andy Dalton (which I've proved on here countless times, like when I got crucified a few weeks back for even suggesting he's been better than Palmer was) and still not be blind to the fact that Marvin babied him his whole career here. I even like Marvin and think he's a pretty good coach, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults either. That's called holding him accountable. But hey, what's next - want to talk about how Marvin's really good at clock management now?

Anyways, I'm done with this, because it's all a moot point. Your boy Marvin, bastion of accountability, isn't here any more so I don't really care enough to keep caring about him. I'm sure we'll all look forward to the start of the season when you start waxing poetic about the good ol' days with Marvin if the Bengals should struggle.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2019, 09:57 PM)NKURyan Wrote: As a teacher, if I held my students to separate sets of standards on a whim I wouldn't have a job for very long. As a faculty we don't talk about holding some students accountable while letting others go, we talk about holding ALL students accountable to the SAME standards. 

So does one person come into your class and observe for one day and then tell you who to reward and who to punish.  Or do you do it based on your complete knowledge of what every student has done every day.

I am pretty sure Marvin could tell Ross did not know the playbook when he benched him.  And since he gave up on routes in games I am pretty sure he did it in practice when none of us were watching.  All of you who criticize Marvin for "no accountability" make a mockerey of yourselves when you start defensing Ross.

You also have no clue what goes on in filmrooms or meetings.  It is possible that Marvin gives scathing rebukes and criticism.  That is much more important than throwing a player under the bus just for media attention.

Like I said before.  IF JUST CRITICIZING PLAYERS TO THE MEDIA MADE THEM BETTER THEN WE COULD ALL BE NFL COACHES.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-22-2019, 09:57 PM)NKURyan Wrote: You want to look up some quotes? OK. Let's look at how accountable Marvin held Andy after the worst game of his career against the Browns in 2014, a game in which the Bengals got pantsed on primetime while fighting for a postseason birth, when Andy's in the midst of a 4 game stretch where he's struggling mightily AND has more INTs than TDs for the year - he'd been pretty damn bad. "He will break out of this night", "He'll come out of this and be fine", "No (when asked if he considered benching him)", "We do things the way we're supposed to do it most of the time". Wow, he really grilled him there. No "we really need Andy to play up to what he's capable of", no "we can't do what we want to do with Andy playing this way", no "Andy really needs to make better decisions with the football". No wonder Andy's performance stayed pretty consistent with what it had been the rest of the season - why put pressure on him to do any better? But sure, go ahead and find a smattering of quotes to make yourself feel better.

Harkens back to the time the head coach blasted Peyton Manning in Indy for turning the ball over.  Good catch.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Never heard any player commenting like this about Marvin talking to Andy..

"We smoked a team by like 50 points, and Bill comes in and he's mouthing off at Brady about something," explained Evans, who played in New England from 2005 to 2008. "I'm trying to remember how it started, but he was like, 'If you weren't so worried about you and Gisele's next GQ magazine, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't have thrown that interception. What is this, Christmas? It's October, Brady. Christmas come early or something? I could go to Foxborough High and get someone to throw that ball better than you.'"

[Earendil]

(05-23-2019, 11:43 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Never heard any player commenting like this about Marvin talking to Andy..

"We smoked a team by like 50 points, and Bill comes in and he's mouthing off at Brady about something," explained Evans, who played in New England from 2005 to 2008. "I'm trying to remember how it started, but he was like, 'If you weren't so worried about you and Gisele's next GQ magazine, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't have thrown that interception. What is this, Christmas? It's October, Brady. Christmas come early or something? I could go to Foxborough High and get someone to throw that ball better than you.'"

Ouch....

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2019, 11:43 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Never heard any player commenting like this about Marvin talking to Andy..

"We smoked a team by like 50 points, and Bill comes in and he's mouthing off at Brady about something," explained Evans, who played in New England from 2005 to 2008. "I'm trying to remember how it started, but he was like, 'If you weren't so worried about you and Gisele's next GQ magazine, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't have thrown that interception. What is this, Christmas? It's October, Brady. Christmas come early or something? I could go to Foxborough High and get someone to throw that ball better than you.'"

lol

[Joelist]

Something to remember is that Marvin’s style was not to speak to the media in specifics. Doesn’t mean he was right or wrong to do so - it was just his style. He also seemed to prefer a lower tempo approach to practices and indeed over time had the offense running at a lower tempo - possibly this was to try to milk the clock.

That the players would like the uptempo approach ZT is using so far enough to speak about it is not surprising. Players on offense want the tempo faster as it plays into their natural aggression. In many game situations it is also better simply because it deprives the defense of time to reset - as we saw in real games where when we ran uptempo the offense looked WAY better.

I am curious as to what the route tree will look like this season? One persistent issue has been receivers running wrong routes, breaking them off prematurely and constantly failing to break back to the ball. Perhaps Callahan and ZT will be using a simpler route tree that lets the receivers keep tabs on the pocket?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2019, 01:16 PM)Joelist Wrote: Something to remember is that Marvin’s style was not to speak to the media in specifics. Doesn’t mean he was right or wrong to do so - it was just his style. He also seemed to prefer a lower tempo approach to practices and indeed over time had the offense running at a lower tempo - possibly this was to try to milk the clock.

That the players would like the uptempo approach ZT is using so far enough to speak about it is not surprising. Players on offense want the tempo faster as it plays into their natural aggression. In many game situations it is also better simply because it deprives the defense of time to reset - as we saw in real games where when we ran uptempo the offense looked WAY better.

I am curious as to what the route tree will look like this season? One persistent issue has been receivers running wrong routes, breaking them off prematurely and constantly failing to break back to the ball. Perhaps Callahan and ZT will be using a simpler route tree that lets the receivers keep tabs on the pocket?

Nice post Joelist, would also like to see our Receivers continue to try and get open like the Steelers Receivers always do to us. Sometimes our Receivers quit on routes too early and gave Andy nothing to fall back on, this has to change and with an offensive HC i could see it happening.

[NKURyan]

(05-23-2019, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am pretty sure Marvin could tell Ross did not know the playbook when he benched him.  And since he gave up on routes in games I am pretty sure he did it in practice when none of us were watching.  All of you who criticize Marvin for "no accountability" make a mockerey of yourselves when you start defensing Ross.

You also have no clue what goes on in filmrooms or meetings.  It is possible that Marvin gives scathing rebukes and criticism.  That is much more important than throwing a player under the bus just for media attention.

Nobody is defending Ross, I'm being critical of the obvious double standards Marvin had in regards to how he treated the last two first round draft picks of the team. Billy Price stunk out loud last year. Ross was right to be benched. Price should have received the same if the team cared about accountability. They pretty clearly didn't. You make a "mockerey" of yourself when you don't pick up on key things like this in a discussion.

It's also really cute how you'll say how we have "no clue what goes on in filmrooms or meetings", but you're still "pretty sure Marvin could tell Ross didn't know the playbook when he benched him" and are "pretty sure he did it in practice". Which is it Fred? Or are you allowed to make assumptions about the things behind the scenes while noone else is. I was done with this discussion, but that was so ridiculous I couldn't resist and just had to hold you accountable to your own statements. Evidently you're allowed to infer what goes on behind the scenes, but noone else can. Must be nice!