Interesting take from Hobspin on AFCN

[HarleyDog]

(06-09-2019, 03:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's easy to emote with your heart about your team and have hope.

It's harder when your head gets into it.

Browns make big changes and improve.

Bengals make only minor changes, some of which have questionable improvement value, so you have to kind of wonder if your hope should be tempered some.

Losing to the Browns twice last year was a dagger.

How do you know the changes were minor? You have a new coaching staff who watched film and recognized some weaknesses and decided we can fix what we have here. Coaching is underrated by so many. They make a huge difference. Browns made big changes and only improved on paper. I have an inking that their whole locker room will become a problem. I know our minor changes are questionable, but we just don't know yet. As for losing to the Browns twice last year, even though we were injured (not using that as an excuse) I felt it was the coaches and lack of discipline. I wasnt pissed when we lost the 2nd time because I felt that had to be the nail in the ML coffin. So losing to the Browns finally had a coaching change which was long overdue.

I understand what your saying and I just don't agree brother. But let's be honest. When you consider the ML record against the Steelers, this change should have taken place long ago. Way before the Browns sweep. Yet, Mike is a loyal guy and it took a team who was 1-31 in the two previous years to sweep us that finally made him move. Not to discount the fans disapproval and lack of attendance and season ticket drops. He felt that one in the nads!

I think we had the perfect storm. Team embarrassment, fan embarrassment and an owner who feared he was close to losing the support of not only a city, but support of the fans nationwide (there are few outside Ohio, northern KY and SE Indiana). I feel this is why we've finally started seeing the Bengals act like an NFL team. The draft was more than many expected. I have good feelings about this year. We are going to be something special. We are still one of the youngest teams in the league and if they gel quickly under this new regime, man, oh man, we got some good stuff heading our way.

So, as you say, "Losing to the Browns twice last year was a dagger." Yes it was, but I beleive we will remove that dagger from our skin, and slay the entire NFL.

[BengalChris]

(06-09-2019, 05:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: How do you know the changes were minor? You have a new coaching staff who watched film and recognized some weaknesses and decided we can fix what we have here. Coaching is underrated by so many. They make a huge difference. Browns made big changes and only improved on paper. I have an inking that their whole locker room will become a problem. I know our minor changes are questionable, but we just don't know yet. As for losing to the Browns twice last year, even though we were injured (not using that as an excuse) I felt it was the coaches and lack of discipline. I wasnt pissed when we lost the 2nd time because I felt that had to be the nail in the ML coffin. So losing to the Browns finally had a coaching change which was long overdue.

I understand what your saying and I just don't agree brother. But let's be honest. When you consider the ML record against the Steelers, this change should have taken place long ago. Way before the Browns sweep. Yet, Mike is a loyal guy and it took a team who was 1-31 in the two previous years to sweep us that finally made him move. Not to discount the fans disapproval and lack of attendance and season ticket drops. He felt that one in the nads!

I think we had the perfect storm. Team embarrassment, fan embarrassment and an owner who feared he was close to losing the support of not only a city, but support of the fans nationwide (there are few outside Ohio, northern KY and SE Indiana). I feel this is why we've finally started seeing the Bengals act like an NFL team. The draft was more than many expected. I have good feelings about this year. We are going to be something special. We are still one of the youngest teams in the league and if they gel quickly under this new regime, man, oh man, we got some good stuff heading our way.

So, as you say, "Losing to the Browns twice last year was a dagger." Yes it was, but I beleive we will remove that dagger from our skin, and slay the entire NFL.

I wasn't thinking so much of the staff changes as player signings. Keeping Hart and Redmond, then adding Webb and Miller was about as exciting as having to clean up the vomit last year's team left on the field.

Marvin's inability to beat Pittsburgh was down right annoying and depressing.

But, consider that Marvin has been the only head coach who could put up a winning record with Mike Brown in charge. The others who couldn't were Sam Wyche, Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet (the one who wanted to trade rights to Ricky Williams to NO and use those picks to rebuild the OL and DL, but was handed Akili Smith instead) and Dick LeBeau. Outside of Dave Shula, those guys each were good coaches. Sam had taken us to the SB only a few years earlier, but he lasted only one season with Mike Brown.

I really did like the draft this year though. I loved the Williams pick and the Sample pick is growing on me. We kind of need Pratt to be a decent pick.

I'm a wait and see how it goes guy when it comes to the Bengals. Way more years than not I've gone into a season with a fresh bright outlook only to be disappointed completely by the half way mark. Just know that I remember when the Bengals being born. It was a big deal in Ohio when Paul Brown started another team. It's been many years and way too many of them have been with Mike Brown.

Taylor may just be a bunch of hot air for all I know. I think he'll have his ups and downs in the first year or two. I won't jump on him for some dumb calls cause it's just early for him and I expect him to learn from those things, if he's going to be a good HC.

I hope the team comes out and surprises us all, man handles the Browns and puts them back in their place, then kicks the snot out of Ben and his SqueelerSquad. But then my head says, "we'll have to see".

[McC]

(06-09-2019, 11:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Really I could make a case for ANY TEAM in THE AFCN winning the division.

At this point. our biggest questionmark is the coaching. They're inexperienced and all taking huge leaps up in level. IF that works out, we could win 10 games.

That said, we won what 6, 7, 6 games the last 3 years so of course people aren't going to pick us to go 12-4 this year.

How many NFL HC games are there on Freddie "I spend way too much time in" Kitchens' resume?

[Socal Bengals fan]

Some of you sound kind of silly saying the NFL has the book on Mayfield n he’s going to struggle this year. That’s a lot of wishful thinking. He had a rookie TE last year , only one good WR n rookie RB, this year he has an entire offseason to get in sync with all his weapons n added a top 5 WR n Kareem Hunt too. I’m not a fan of the Browns at all but they will be much improved from last year n Mayfield is the real deal. Jackson on the other no one knows about him as he’s learning a whole new playbook n he loves to run

[Chezaugie]

What the Bengals really need this year is for the Cleveland Browns to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Works every time!

[Luvnit2]

(06-09-2019, 06:40 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Some of you sound kind of silly saying the NFL has the book on Mayfield n he’s going to struggle this year. That’s a lot of wishful thinking.   He had a rookie TE last year , only one good WR n rookie RB, this year he has an entire offseason to get in sync with all his weapons n added a top 5 WR n Kareem Hunt too.   I’m not a fan of the Browns at all but they will be much improved from last year n Mayfield is the real deal.  Jackson on the other no one knows about him as he’s learning a whole new playbook n he loves to run

You love Mayfield based on your past posts. Maybe your love is blind, maybe not.

But, Mayfield had a healthy Landry a year ago all year and a healthy OL. I think je will be as good as the health of his OL and his receivers. Hunt we knw is missing 8 games minimum. 

I think Mayfield will turn out to be somewhere in the middle between good and great, not just in 219, but in his career. You are thinking great so im time we will see who is correct.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-09-2019, 05:50 PM)McC Wrote: How many NFL HC games are there on Freddie "I spend way too much time in" Kitchens' resume?

He wouldn't have been my pick there. I would have went experienced...but he did a good job as an OC last year.

Taylor was a QB Coach last year and an Assistant WR Coach before that.

Our OC was a QB Coach the year before.

Plus, the Browns added OBJ and Kareem Hunt. I'd feel better about Taylor's inexperience had we just added 2 Pro Bowl players.

We basically kept the roster the same, added draft picks, and are banking on coaching to improve the team. Could it work? Yes. It could also fail miserably.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-09-2019, 06:40 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Some of you sound kind of silly saying the NFL has the book on Mayfield n he’s going to struggle this year. That’s a lot of wishful thinking.   He had a rookie TE last year , only one good WR n rookie RB, this year he has an entire offseason to get in sync with all his weapons n added a top 5 WR n Kareem Hunt too.   I’m not a fan of the Browns at all but they will be much improved from last year n Mayfield is the real deal.  Jackson on the other no one knows about him as he’s learning a whole new playbook n he loves to run

Agreed. The plays teams run just don't totally fool other teams. With good players, you can know what's coming and if the blocking and execution are good...it will work.

We knew Lamar Jackson was going to run and he still tore us up for example.

[THE PISTONS]

(06-09-2019, 08:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You love Mayfield based on your past posts. Maybe your love is blind, maybe not.

But, Mayfield had a healthy Landry a year ago all year and a healthy OL. I think je will be as good as the health of his OL and his receivers. Hunt we knw is missing 8 games minimum. 

I think Mayfield will turn out to be somewhere in the middle between good and great, not just in 219, but in his career. You are thinking great so im time we will see who is correct.

I would agree with that. The Browns has the #2 line last year according to PFF.

Man their offense looks loaded though. I doubt Mayfield is a great QB too. I think above average to good.

But, on offense.

#2 line (yeah they lost Zeitler but had a replacement.)
Chubb looked really good (5.2 ypc) as a rookie. They added Hunt who was leading the NFL in rushing.
Beckham and Landry at WR with Calloway as #3.
TE - Njoku who is young, athletic, and probably above average.

Plus, Kitchens seemed to know how to really create an offense last year.

Where is their weakness on offense? I don't see it.

[J24]

(06-09-2019, 08:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I would agree with that. The Browns has the #2 line last year according to PFF.

Man their offense looks loaded though. I doubt Mayfield is a great QB too. I think above average to good.

But, on offense.

#2 line (yeah they lost Zeitler but had a replacement.)
Chubb looked really good (5.2 ypc) as a rookie. They added Hunt who was leading the NFL in rushing.
Beckham and Landry at WR with Calloway as #3.
TE - Njoku who is young, athletic, and probably above average.

Plus, Kitchens seemed to know how to really create an offense last year.

Where is their weakness on offense? I don't see it.

There just ok at tackle and just lost Zeitler.  There O line could sink them just like our offensive line could sink us.

[Sled21]

(06-09-2019, 11:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is true about new offenses/playbooks/etc.  but what cannot be so easily changed are the physical habits that are now fully captured on game film.  Every QB has physical "cues" that defensive players and coaches can all clearly see and read.  I feel like these cues are more telling and easier to diagnose in mobile QBs, as opposed to pocket passers who master the pump fake and the "look off" to create windows of separation for their receivers.  With mobile QBs, it's usually something more physically demonstrative, like a stutter or hitch in their step, or maybe the Safety catches him taking a long look at the middle of the field before he tucks and runs, etc.

Right, and I'm not bashing Jackson at all, I'm a huge fan of his from Louisville.... but, you put pressure on him and his first instinct is to run. He a phenomenal athlete, and got away with it in college because he is so fast and shifty. Petrino use to run drill after drill, and blow the whistle as soon as he pulled the ball down to run to try to break that habit. But it is ingrained.....I suspect that can hurt him in the pros where everyone is fast..... we just cannot allow him time in the pocket.

[Joelist]

(06-09-2019, 11:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is true about new offenses/playbooks/etc.  but what cannot be so easily changed are the physical habits that are now fully captured on game film.  Every QB has physical "cues" that defensive players and coaches can all clearly see and read.  I feel like these cues are more telling and easier to diagnose in mobile QBs, as opposed to pocket passers who master the pump fake and the "look off" to create windows of separation for their receivers.  With mobile QBs, it's usually something more physically demonstrative, like a stutter or hitch in their step, or maybe the Safety catches him taking a long look at the middle of the field before he tucks and runs, etc.

Yep! 

And people keep forgetting that Mayfield had a pretty good cast last season but aside from beating up on us and Atlanta he looked pretty ordinary at best with a real turnover problem. In fact there were only two teams he played twice - our all time bad defense and the Rats. Our defense was a total sieve and unable to stop either run or pass. The Rats made him look bad. 

Jackson I maintain is essentially Terrell Pryor II. He should be moved to WR as he has zero touch, one speed on his throws and no real pocket play skills. I suspect after this season the Rats will take a real QB early and do exactly that. 

[THE PISTONS]

(06-09-2019, 10:39 PM)Joelist Wrote: Yep! 

And people keep forgetting that Mayfield had a pretty good cast last season but aside from beating up on us and Atlanta he looked pretty ordinary at best with a real turnover problem. In fact there were only two teams he played twice - our all time bad defense and the Rats. Our defense was a total sieve and unable to stop either run or pass. The Rats made him look bad. 

Jackson I maintain is essentially Terrell Pryor II. He should be moved to WR as he has zero touch, one speed on his throws and no real pocket play skills. I suspect after this season the Rats will take a real QB early and do exactly that. 

You gotta look at the Browns different last year from when they had Hue to when they got rid of him. They were markedly better without Hue.

I'm not ready to anoint them, but I see why the press likes what they did.

Look how psyched most on the board were last year after we traded for a Cordy Glenn who was hurt for the previous 2 years. Imagine if we added OBJ AND Kareem Hunt. The board would be through the roof with excitement.

[samhain]

(06-09-2019, 08:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You love Mayfield based on your past posts. Maybe your love is blind, maybe not.

But, Mayfield had a healthy Landry a year ago all year and a healthy OL. I think je will be as good as the health of his OL and his receivers. Hunt we knw is missing 8 games minimum. 

I think Mayfield will turn out to be somewhere in the middle between good and great, not just in 219, but in his career. You are thinking great so im time we will see who is correct.

That's the thing, though.  Mayfield doesn't have to be great to prove that the Browns aren't the same old Browns.  He just has to be good.  I'm afraid that he is, at minimum good.  Great is probably jumping the gun.  Regardless, the fact that the Browns have anything other than a guy waiting to be replaced with a number 1 draft pick or washed up FA at quarterback means that the times are different.  

They still have to go a long way to be crowned as an AFC contender, but I think they've escaped the "oh, it's the Browns" line.  If that's how people approach them in 2019, I think they're making a mistake.  Just having competency at the position changes the whole dynamic when it comes to how you see that team going forward.

[*Nately120*]

Ehh...the Browns gleefully kicked Hue's arse out of town mid season. I'm not convinced Mike Brown read Marvin the riot act and fired him and made some statement about accountability, though. What are the odds Mike Brown wanted to keep Marvin and the status quo (minus the god-awful Austin) and Marvin had just said "no thanks"

Call me negative, but I'm just not so sure Mike Brown was fed up with Marvin and his ways.

[*SHRacerX*]

If you strictly analyze by rosters, the Browns are loaded with young talent on both the offensive and defensive side of the ball. Do I think they have a better roster than Cincy? My simple answer is no.

The Bengals were rolling on offense last year before Eifert's injury and were still headed to the playoffs before losing Dalton and Green. The offensive line has been fortified in two key spots and I believe Billy Price will be a huge upgrade over his rookie season. The depth at RB, TE, and WR is there. The offense, with a more aggressive, less-predictable scheme, should be better than last year's unit. It might also help the defense by having better ball control and time of possession with the emphasis on improving the rushing attack. And what have I always said about Dalton? When giving adequate time (and I don't mean the ridiculous time afforded Piggy and Brady due to their lines being able to hold all day without drawing a flag), he is an absolute surgeon. He carves teams up. I think the added measure of misdirection, motion, and moving Dalton's pocket will be HUGE for him. He has done extremely well despite being a sitting duck in the last few years.

The real question is on the defense: We are all concerned about the LB corps....but what else? The defensive line will have Dunlap, Hubbard, Lawson, Willis, and Wynn all rotating at the end positions and coming in fresh and hungry. We have competition for Billings and Glasgow with Wren and Geno should only improve with better, fresher talent around him.

The secondary is the absolute strength of our team. They have depth and roster flexibility should anyone be injured. Bates has Pro Bowl potential. More pass rush is going to yield more turnover opportunities for these guys.

The LB corps has a lot of question marks, yes, but they were significantly better last year once Austin was gone and they returned to more man coverage on the back end. I think we will start with Vigil and Pratt as the nickel package. Brown may stay regulated to the base LB package.

If this is the biggest question mark on the entire roster, I will take it. I view our LB corps as I would an offensive line that has a QB that holds the ball too long and ends up getting sacked. There has to be a realistic pass rush and coverage to allow them to do their job as well. From what I am hearing about Lou's different fronts and schemes, they are going to be more aggressive on defense as well. This is what ZT wants and has said as much.

I don't think anyone can possibly realize how much this may do to get more out of the players. Cleveland was playing with less talent, but a ton more PASSION than the Bengals and other teams a year ago. Hell, they might have lost, but they gave pitt some awesome games. It is all about getting the most out of your guys and our guys looked so defeated at times...as though they knew they had no shot with the ridiculous conservative crap they were rolling out there. I think ZT will have his guys flying around and playing with energy. I don't care if you have a roster of the 85 Bears on defense, and the Greatest Show on Turf Rams on offense...if you aren't getting the most out of your players you will not be competitive.

The Bengals are certainly capable of winning the division, and I am more excited than I have been in a long time to watch them.

[Sled21]

Cleveland screwed the pooch getting rid of Williams and hiring Kitchens. Williams brought them more wins in half a season that they had in several combined prior seasons.  As for Mayfield, he may very well be good.... but how many good QB's have the Brown's brought into the Factory of Sadness and destroyed their careers.....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

.....sure is a lot of excuse making for Baker in here. In 2011, we came into the season with a rookie QB, rookie WR, washed up Benson, Jerome Simpson, Gresh, and started Kyle Cook and Nate Livings on the oline.....with no OTAs and made the playoffs, coming off a 4-12 season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-09-2019, 08:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I would agree with that. The Browns has the #2 line last year according to PFF.

Man their offense looks loaded though. I doubt Mayfield is a great QB too. I think above average to good.

But, on offense.

#2 line (yeah they lost Zeitler but had a replacement.)
Chubb looked really good (5.2 ypc) as a rookie. They added Hunt who was leading the NFL in rushing.
Beckham and Landry at WR with Calloway as #3.
TE - Njoku who is young, athletic, and probably above average.

Plus, Kitchens seemed to know how to really create an offense last year.

Where is their weakness on offense? I don't see it.

Actually, that was the offense Hue wanted to run when they made Mayfield the starter.  According to an article I linked to a thread about the Browns last season, Hue wanted to get the offense similar to what Baker ran at OU, Haley balked.  This is what led to the infighting that eventually got them both fired.  Kitchens comes in, runs the offense Hue wanted and looks like a genius.  

Now, the timing of the playcalls is absolutely on him and he did well, but his prowess is actually just about as unknown as our HC.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-10-2019, 07:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: If you strictly analyze by rosters, the Browns are loaded with young talent on both the offensive and defensive side of the ball.  Do I think they have a better roster than Cincy?   My simple answer is no.

The Bengals were rolling on offense last year before Eifert's injury and were still headed to the playoffs before losing Dalton and Green.  The offensive line has been fortified in two key spots and I believe Billy Price will be a huge upgrade over his rookie season.  The depth at RB, TE, and WR is there.  The offense, with a more aggressive, less-predictable scheme, should be better than last year's unit.  It might also help the defense by having better ball control and time of possession with the emphasis on improving the rushing attack.  And what have I always said about Dalton?  When giving adequate time (and I don't mean the ridiculous time afforded Piggy and Brady due to their lines being able to hold all day without drawing a flag), he is an absolute surgeon.  He carves teams up.  I think the added measure of misdirection, motion, and moving Dalton's pocket will be HUGE for him.  He has done extremely well despite being a sitting duck in the last few years.  

The real question is on the defense:  We are all concerned about the LB corps....but what else?  The defensive line will have Dunlap, Hubbard, Lawson, Willis, and Wynn all rotating at the end positions and coming in fresh and hungry.  We have competition for Billings and Glasgow with Wren and Geno should only improve with better, fresher talent around him.  

The secondary is the absolute strength of our team.  They have depth and roster flexibility should anyone be injured.  Bates has Pro Bowl potential.  More pass rush is going to yield more turnover opportunities for these guys.  

The LB corps has a lot of question marks, yes, but they were significantly better last year once Austin was gone and they returned to more man coverage on the back end.  I think we will start with Vigil and Pratt as the nickel package.  Brown may stay regulated to the base LB package.  

If this is the biggest question mark on the entire roster, I will take it.  I view our LB corps as I would an offensive line that has a QB that holds the ball too long and ends up getting sacked.  There has to be a realistic pass rush and coverage to allow them to do their job as well.  From what I am hearing about Lou's different fronts and schemes, they are going to be more aggressive on defense as well.  This is what ZT wants and has said as much.  

I don't think anyone can possibly realize how much this may do to get more out of the players.  Cleveland was playing with less talent, but a ton more PASSION than the Bengals and other teams a year ago.  Hell, they might have lost, but they gave pitt some awesome games.  It is all about getting the most out of your guys and our guys looked so defeated at times...as though they knew they had no shot with the ridiculous conservative crap they were rolling out there.  I think ZT will have his guys flying around and playing with energy.  I don't care if you have a roster of the 85 Bears on defense, and the Greatest Show on Turf Rams on offense...if you aren't getting the most out of your players you will not be competitive.  

The Bengals are certainly capable of winning the division, and I am more excited than I have been in a long time to watch them.

Agreed.  To me, what it all boils down to, is the competency of the new staff.  I've maintained for years that the coaching staff was holding the team back, and a detriment in critical situations.  So, if this staff is indeed good, then I see no reason why this team can't contend.  That simple.