How PFF grades all positions

[Bengalholic]

I'm placing this in Jungle Noise because PFF gets cited a lot and debated often in terms of it's validity or usefulness when it comes to judging / ranking players and their performance. In this article, they lay out what goes into their formula and how they determine grades for different areas. If nothing else, it's interesting to get a look at what goes into the process.


'During the NFL season, our team of 400-plus staff spend around 20,000 man-hours of work to grade and analyze every play of the NFL season, from the kickoff in the Hall of Fame game to the final play of the Super Bowl.

Memories can deceive, and highlights by their nature miss out on the vast majority of a player’s game, but PFF covers every player on every play of every game to give you the most comprehensive analysis of player performance you can find anywhere. Below is a series of articles, written by Senior Analyst Steve Palazzolo, detailing the ins and outs of our groundbreaking grading system.'


FULL ARTICLE

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 02:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm placing this in Jungle Noise because PFF gets cited a lot and debated often in terms of it's validity or usefulness when it comes to judging / ranking players and their performance. In this article, they lay out what goes into their formula and how they determine grades for different areas. If nothing else, it's interesting to get a look at what goes into the process.


'During the NFL season, our team of 400-plus staff spend around 20,000 man-hours of work to grade and analyze every play of the NFL season, from the kickoff in the Hall of Fame game to the final play of the Super Bowl.

Memories can deceive, and highlights by their nature miss out on the vast majority of a player’s game, but PFF covers every player on every play of every game to give you the most comprehensive analysis of player performance you can find anywhere. Below is a series of articles, written by Senior Analyst Steve Palazzolo, detailing the ins and outs of our groundbreaking grading system.'


FULL ARTICLE

Total waste of time. No one can watch a play and tell me if the QB gets a +1 or a +2.

Just subjective BS.

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2019, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Total waste of time. No one can watch a play and tell me if the QB gets a +1 or a +2.

Just subjective BS.

It's not that difficult to understand the harder the throw the higher the grade.

What I dont like about the QB grades is they say they grade by QB progressions. Two different offense can run the exact same play but have different progressions. Some offenses like Bruce Arians will opt for the low percentage big throw and other offense like Josh McDaniels opt for the high percentage throws.

Of course they can extrapolate some of them by watching that same play over the course of the season but without thr playbook it's still difficult, but PFF does watch the tape and grades accordingly instead of an outdated way of pro football reference which averages stats which can be misleading.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 03:28 PM)Synric Wrote: It's not that difficult to understand the harder the throw the higher the grade.

Then tell me the difference.  Where is the line drawn?  What exactly is the difference between a +1 throw and a +2 throw?

They are not talking about "a little better".  They are talking about 100% better.  Seems to me they should be able to tell me what makes the difference.  If I am watching a game how can I tell if a throw gets a +1 or a +2?

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 03:28 PM)Synric Wrote:  but PFF does watch the tape and grades accordingly instead of an outdated way of pro football reference which averages stats which can be misleading.

At least we all know what stats mean.  

If we were watching a game together you could not tell me which throws were +1 and which ones were +2.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-16-2019, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: At least we all know what stats mean.  

If we were watching a game together you could not tell me which throws were +1 and which ones were +2.

That's why grades are not released right after a game.
They go back and view each play. Check to see if a WR was open or not, did the player get killed after catching the ball, ball placement, velocity etc. Each little positive check eventually changes it to a +2 and negative checks lower it, ie INT's Sacks etc.

It is a fairly complicated system, but I'm not sold on it being the ULTIMATE guide. Take it for what it is, just another way to generate stats and see if a player is good or not in a certain scheme.

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2019, 04:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then tell me the difference.  Where is the line drawn?  What exactly is the difference between a +1 throw and a +2 throw?

They are not talking about "a little better".  They are talking about 100% better.  Seems to me they should be able to tell me what makes the difference.  If I am watching a game how can I tell if a throw gets a +1 or a +2?

(07-16-2019, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: At least we all know what stats mean.  

If we were watching a game together you could not tell me which throws were +1 and which ones were +2.

Ignorance is a poor arguement Fred. I've taken girls to games and they can look up stats on their phone but they cant tell me formations or even what a formation or what coverage but they exsist.

Their are harder throws like throwing a fly against cover 2 or 3 is harder than throwing it against cover 1. Throwing crossers against cover 2 man is easier than throwing it against cover 3 zone.

Let me put it this way have you played football? How did they teach you did they tell you your stats and tell you they need to be better or did they show you tape and show you what you did right or wrong on any given play?

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2019, 05:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: That's why grades are not released right after a game.
They go back and view each play. Check to see if a WR was open or not, did the player get killed after catching the ball, ball placement, velocity etc. Each little positive check eventually changes it to a +2 and negative checks lower it, ie INT's Sacks etc.

It is a fairly complicated system, but I'm not sold on it being the ULTIMATE guide. Take it for what it is, just another way to generate stats and see if a player is good or not in a certain scheme.

They aren't perfect nothing is but they are former players and coaches breaking down tape that is why PFF is the number 1 football reference and credited by every media outlet as such.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 06:17 PM)Synric Wrote: Let me put it this way have you played football? How did they teach you did they tell you your stats and tell you they need to be better or did they show you tape and show you what you did right or wrong on any given play?

They were able to tell me exactly what I did wrong.  They did not just say "be better".  

And if I did something a little bit better on one play they did not tell me I was twice as good or 100% better.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 06:17 PM)Synric Wrote: Ignorance is a poor arguement Fred. I've taken girls to games and they can look up stats on their phone but they cant tell me formations or even what a formation or what coverage but they exsist.

Actually "ignorance" is the reason their individual rankings are garbage.  It is not MY fault that they can not tell me the difference between a +1 play and a +2 play.

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2019, 06:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually "ignorance" is the reason their individual rankings are garbage.  It is not MY fault that they can not tell me the difference between a +1 play and a +2 play.

Lol so you expect them to teach you how to break down tape in a single article? There are dozens of variables on a single play that they grade which they explained.

These are former players and former coaches at the pro and college level breaking down tape and are accredited by all media sources as the number one football reference...You are not in their league neither am I.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 07:21 PM)Synric Wrote:  There are dozens of variables on a single play that they grade which they explained.

Actually they did not explain any of that.

Dalton hits a WR on the hands 10 yards downfield.  Is that a 0, a +1, or a +2?  Since he can't do it any better then that has to be a +2, right?  But on the other hand that seems like a pretty common play.  So then should it be a 0?

And isn't a 15 yard pass harder than a 10 yard pass?  And a 20 yard pass harder than a 15 yard pass?  and a 25 yard pass harder than a 20? And so on and so on and so on?  So how do you tell the difference with just 3 options of "0", "+1", and "+2"

I read the article and it is clearly just subjective.  There are no clear guidelines.  Just whatever the grader feels is appropriate.

[Whatever]

(07-16-2019, 06:20 PM)Synric Wrote: They aren't perfect nothing is but they are former players and coaches breaking down tape that is why PFF is the number 1 football reference and credited by every media outlet as such.

There may be some former players and coaches breaking down tape, but to my knowledge they all are not.  We had a board member awhile back that was training in their grading system.

There are just too many inconsistencies and things that don't make sense with their grading system.  Mixon has a "good" rating, but led the AFC in rushing behind what they said was one of the worst OL's in the league.

Their system, by it's nature, also rewards flashy plays over consistent play.  For example, looking at their run blocking system, a player who earns 0 grades for 10 snaps is doing their job perfectly well, but will be ranked worse than a player who dominates on 6 plays, but completely blows it on 4.

I see it as a tool.  It's an opinion, but certainly not the be all, end all.

[*Synric*]

(07-17-2019, 12:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: There may be some former players and coaches breaking down tape, but to my knowledge they all are not.  We had a board member awhile back that was training in their grading system.

There are just too many inconsistencies and things that don't make sense with their grading system.  Mixon has a "good" rating, but led the AFC in rushing behind what they said was one of the worst OL's in the league.

Their system, by it's nature, also rewards flashy plays over consistent play.  For example, looking at their run blocking system, a player who earns 0 grades for 10 snaps is doing their job perfectly well, but will be ranked worse than a player who dominates on 6 plays, but completely blows it on 4.

I see it as a tool.  It's an opinion, but certainly not the be all, end all.

We've also had message board members that applied to be scouts and played golf with various players. 

As for offensive line grades you've argued that before and anyone with eyes disagrees as for "flashy" plays some plays weigh more than others even Pro Football Reference has a system for that.


Is it PFF perfect? no even the owner Chris Collinsworth agrees but it's definitely the best out there. That is why and I've said so repeatedly they are referenced by every sports media outlet.

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2019, 11:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually they did not explain any of that.

Dalton hits a WR on the hands 10 yards downfield.  Is that a 0, a +1, or a +2?  Since he can't do it any better then that has to be a +2, right?  But on the other hand that seems like a pretty common play.  So then should it be a 0?

And isn't a 15 yard pass harder than a 10 yard pass?  And a 20 yard pass harder than a 15 yard pass?  and a 25 yard pass harder than a 20? And so on and so on and so on?  So how do you tell the difference with just 3 options of "0", "+1", and "+2"

I read the article and it is clearly just subjective.  There are no clear guidelines.  Just whatever the grader feels is appropriate.

Nope.

 A 30 yard fly is an easier throw against cover 1 man than a 10 yard out against zone from the the opposite hash mark. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-17-2019, 12:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: There may be some former players and coaches breaking down tape, but to my knowledge they all are not.  We had a board member awhile back that was training in their grading system.

There are just too many inconsistencies and things that don't make sense with their grading system.  Mixon has a "good" rating, but led the AFC in rushing behind what they said was one of the worst OL's in the league.

Their system, by it's nature, also rewards flashy plays over consistent play.  For example, looking at their run blocking system, a player who earns 0 grades for 10 snaps is doing their job perfectly well, but will be ranked worse than a player who dominates on 6 plays, but completely blows it on 4.

I see it as a tool.  It's an opinion, but certainly not the be all, end all.

That would be me! And Eox :)

It wasn't this in-depth when I was going through it, but they have also changed the grading system since then as well.

I will continue to go back to this though; the grades still make 0 sense, even with the guide.

The fundamental question that has still not been answered, is, "do they start the grade at 0, 50, 100 or left off from a previous point in another game? etc."

That's why the old way of starting at 0 and if you're above, you had a good game, you're below and you've had a bad game, is still the best way they could've done it. Now with the 0-100 scheme, they can manipulate and change things however they see fit and that's why I don't find their grades trustworthy anymore.

Their stats and line numbers for pressures and the like, are still gold... but I'm not paying the ridiculous price for that!