How much has this team really improved this off-season?

[BengalChris]

When I look at the roster overall I find it hard to locate any position that has been improved much. Here's the project starters.

QB Dalton - no change
RB Mixon - no change
LT Glenn - no change
LG Jerry - change from Boling, but is he any better really? Or is it going to be Westerman stepping in?
C Price - no change, but he's coming in healthy and has a year under his belt. I expect improvement.
RG Miller - upgrade over false start guy (whatever his name was)
RT Hart - no change where an upgrade was very warranted
TE Eifert - coming in healthy, as usual - How long will he last? Uzomah ended up starting last season and may very well be the guy this year, so no change here either.
WR1 AJ Green - no change
WR2 Boyd - no change
WR3 ???? - any consistency would be an upgrade, but did we acquire that consistency? Will anyone show up as a consistent WR here or do we just move Eifert out to WR as his starting role and start Uzomah at TE? Personally, I believe Eifert moved outside as a WR and Uzomah as starting TE puts our best hands on the field and creates the best kind of mis-matches.

Has the offense been upgraded? Or are we counting on people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?


Projected defensive starters:

LDR Dunlap - no change
DT Atkins - no change
NT Billings - no change
DE Hubbard - an upgrade over MJ, but was here last season.
DL rotation - several guys are returning from injuries and that depth should improve the DL's performance overall.
LB Vigil - no change
LB Brown - no change. Are we counting on him being healthy as the upgrade over last season's tackling void?
LB Pratt - Hopefully he'll be an upgrade over how Burfict played last season.
CB Willie Jackson - no change
CB Kirkpatrick - no change
CB Dennard - no change, Webb isn't better than Dennard but he could help out if a starting corner misses a game or two.
FS Bates - no change
SS Williams - no change

Again, I have to ask, are we counting people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?

[hollodero]

(07-17-2019, 09:47 PM)BengalChris Wrote: TE Eifert - coming in healthy, as usual - How long will he last? Uzomah ended up starting last season and may very well be the guy this year, so no change here either.

I don't really know what to make out of him yet, but in theory Sample should be an upgrade.

[Yojimbo]

I think we’re counting on better coaching and players improving from year to year. Marvin leaving could be a huge addition by subtraction.

[Whatever]

(07-17-2019, 09:47 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When I look at the roster overall I find it hard to locate any position that has been improved much. Here's the project starters.

QB Dalton - no change
RB Mixon - no change
LT Glenn - no change
LG Jerry - change from Boling, but is he any better really? Or is it going to be Westerman stepping in?
C Price - no change, but he's coming in healthy and has a year under his belt. I expect improvement.
RG Miller - upgrade over false start guy (whatever his name was)
RT Hart - no change where an upgrade was very warranted
TE Eifert - coming in healthy, as usual - How long will he last? Uzomah ended up starting last season and may very well be the guy this year, so no change here either.
WR1 AJ Green - no change
WR2 Boyd - no change
WR3 ???? - any consistency would be an upgrade, but did we acquire that consistency? Will anyone show up as a consistent WR here or do we just move Eifert out to WR as his starting role and start Uzomah at TE? Personally, I believe Eifert moved outside as a WR and Uzomah as starting TE puts our best hands on the field and creates the best kind of mis-matches.

Has the offense been upgraded? Or are we counting on people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?


Projected defensive starters:

LDR Dunlap - no change
DT Atkins - no change
NT Billings - no change
DE Hubbard - an upgrade over MJ, but was here last season.
DL rotation - several guys are returning from injuries and that depth should improve the DL's performance overall.
LB Vigil - no change
LB Brown - no change. Are we counting on him being healthy as the upgrade over last season's tackling void?
LB Pratt - Hopefully he'll be an upgrade over how Burfict played last season.
CB Willie Jackson - no change
CB Kirkpatrick - no change
CB Dennard - no change, Webb isn't better than Dennard but he could help out if a starting corner misses a game or two.
FS Bates - no change
SS Williams - no change
i
Again, I have to ask, are we counting people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?

It's really impossible to say where we upgraded because we don't know how guys will fit in the new offense and the new defense.

If we're talking on paper, RB is probably better.  I mean, both Williams and Anderson can't be worse than Whalton.  TE is likely better and I don't see Sample sitting behind Uzi for long.  RG is definitely better with Miller.  From what's been said, LG is Westerman's job to lose and he was arguably our best OL last year.  On defense, CB is stronger and deeper with Webb.  MJ is gone, so our DE rotation will likely improve.  But again, that's all on paper and means absolutely nothing on the field.

Hoping the injured guys come back healthy is part of it, but the coaching changes is also a big part.  You also can't forget that the Bengals were the youngest team in the league last year, and guys are going to get better through experience, time in an NFL weight room, natural development, etc.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Hopefully Sample will be an improvement over Uzo (who I do like) when Eifert inevitably gets injured. If his blocking is as good as advertised it should help a lot. Especially with a subpar OL.

Pratt is about the only other potential upgrade. It shouldn’t be all that hard to be better than what we trotted out there a lot of last season.

And ofc the big one, head coach...

[BengalChris]

(07-17-2019, 10:28 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I think we’re counting on better coaching and players improving from year to year. Marvin leaving could’ve be a huge addition by subtraction.

(07-17-2019, 10:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: It's really impossible to say where we upgraded because we don't know how guys will fit in the new offense and the new defense.

If we're talking on paper, RB is probably better.  I mean, both Williams and Anderson can't be worse than Whalton.  TE is likely better and I don't see Sample sitting behind Uzi for long.  RG is definitely better with Miller.  From what's been said, LG is Westerman's job to lose and he was arguably our best OL last year.  On defense, CB is stronger and deeper with Webb.  MJ is gone, so our DE rotation will likely improve.  But again, that's all on paper and means absolutely nothing on the field.

Hoping the injured guys come back healthy is part of it, but the coaching changes is also a big part.  You also can't forget that the Bengals were the youngest team in the league last year, and guys are going to get better through experience, time in an NFL weight room, natural development, etc.

(07-17-2019, 10:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hopefully Sample will be an improvement over Uzo (who I do like) when Eifert inevitably gets injured. If his blocking is as good as advertised it should help a lot. Especially with a subpar OL.

Pratt is about the only other potential upgrade. It shouldn’t be all that hard to be better than what we trotted out there a lot of last season.

And ofc the big one, head coach...

All of you mentioned it, but I have to ask: How is Taylor an upgrade over Marvin?

Remember that Marvin has been the only HC to put up a winning record under Mike Brown. All those before him failed.

Also remember that Taylor has no HC record at all.

Are we just hoping that Taylor will be better?

Are we hoping Taylor is better because, well, we really don't have a choice?

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-17-2019, 11:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All of you mentioned it, but I have to ask: How is Taylor an upgrade over Marvin?

Remember that Marvin has been the only HC to put up a winning record under Mike Brown. All those before him failed.

Also remember that Taylor has no HC record at all.

Are we just hoping that Taylor will be better?

Are we hoping Taylor is better because, well, we really don't have a choice?

 

Yes, it’s obviously just hope at this point. I don’t think Marvin set the bar all that high as far as how he was as an in-game coach.

Taylor does have a lot on his plate calling his own plays though. We’ll see.

[samhain]

(07-17-2019, 11:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, it’s obviously just hope at this point. I don’t think Marvin set the bar all that high as far as how he was as an in-game coach.  

Taylor does have a lot on his plate calling his own plays though. We’ll see.

Marvin did set the bar really high as far as bringing in talent and assembling coaching staffs.  It's kind of insane to think that a Bengals coach has a coaching tree, but he kind of does.  

He lost his knack at the end, but that also coincided with a drop in talent and an increase in age and injury.  

People are quick to forget it, but it took Marvin all of 2 years to get this team from absolute trash after the 02 season to a team with legit title hopes in 05.  Given the age of the stars on the roster, the lack of an elite quarterback, and the abysmal defense, I'd be fairly shocked to see ZT get this team to respectability in 2 seasons. That team declined, then he proceeded to put together another outstanding roster in fairly short order. All with no flashy FAs, and after a franchise QB left them for dead.

Marvin made us pull our hair out, but he gave us the only taste of hope we've had in 28 years.  That's hard as hell to do when you're coaching a Mike Brown-run franchise and it counts for something.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-17-2019, 11:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, it’s obviously just hope at this point. I don’t think Marvin set the bar all that high as far as how he was as an in-game coach.  

Taylor does have a lot on his plate calling his own plays though. We’ll see.

Right, it's all hope right now. But at least we have hope. And it's really just hope that the team has improved, on paper it's not that much different.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-17-2019, 11:23 PM)samhain Wrote: Marvin did set the bar really high as far as bringing in talent and assembling coaching staffs.  It's kind of insane to think that a Bengals coach has a coaching tree, but he kind of does.  

He lost his knack at the end, but that also coincided with a drop in talent and an increase in age and injury.  

People are quick to forget it, but it took Marvin all of 2 years to get this team from absolute trash after the 02 season to a team with legit title hopes in 05.  Given the age of the stars on the roster, the lack of an elite quarterback, and the abysmal defense, I'd be fairly shocked to see ZT get this team to respectability in 2 seasons. That team declined, then he proceeded to put together another outstanding roster in fairly short order. All with no flashy FAs, and after a franchise QB left them for dead.

Marvin made us pull our hair out, but he gave us the only taste of hope we've had in 28 years.  That's hard as hell to do when you're coaching a Mike Brown-run franchise and it counts for something.

A #1OA QB and a All-Pro WR certainly helped...

[BengalChris]

(07-17-2019, 11:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, it’s obviously just hope at this point. I don’t think Marvin set the bar all that high as far as how he was as an in-game coach.  

Taylor does have a lot on his plate calling his own plays though. We’ll see.

When you consider the state of the Bengals under Mike Brown before Marvin arrived I have to say that it was pretty bad.

I believe Marvin got tired at the end. The injuries last season, Austin turning out to be worst possible choice for DC, and it just took its toll.

When I look at some of Marvin's drafts I do get impressed. The 2016 draft has all the players selected still on the Bengals roster and if Westermand starts at LG this year, 5 players from that draft will be starters on this year's team. There were, of course, bad draft years, like 2015 where only one player from that draft remains on the roster and none of those players are starters anywhere in the league. Another good draft was 2012 where there are 5 players that are starting somewhere in the league.


I will tell you what I do like about Taylor though, he brings an energy of youth, something this team could use a little bit of the leadership department. It's too bad the front office didn't do the same for itself. Mike Brown's daughter and son-in-law strike me as already old and beyond their useful years.

 

[TSwigZ]

I love this team i hope they overachieve and stay healthy but this is a 6-9 win team if we’re being real

[Yojimbo]

(07-17-2019, 11:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All of you mentioned it, but I have to ask: How is Taylor an upgrade over Marvin?

Remember that Marvin has been the only HC to put up a winning record under Mike Brown. All those before him failed.

Also remember that Taylor has no HC record at all.

Are we just hoping that Taylor will be better?

Are we hoping Taylor is better because, well, we really don't have a choice?

 

Of course it’s hope, Taylor hasn’t coached a game yet. There were some good coordinators under Marv, but there were also some terrible ones (Bresnahan) and some terrible position coaches (Haslett).

And for all the good stuff that Marv did, he still had a lot of weaknesses in his “game”, i.e. playoffs, prime time, clock management, in-game adjustments. Which all ended in 3 straight losing seasons.

[J24]

Green missed half the season last year, Lawson missed 9 games last season, Dalton missed 5 games last season, Vigil missed 5 games last season, and Eifert missed 12 games. You're looking at 3 All pro caliber players and the two signal callers of the team missing at least a Quarter of the season that's going to damage any team. Getting those guys healthy is a huge plus for this team.

[Whatever]

(07-17-2019, 11:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote: All of you mentioned it, but I have to ask: How is Taylor an upgrade over Marvin?

Remember that Marvin has been the only HC to put up a winning record under Mike Brown. All those before him failed.

Also remember that Taylor has no HC record at all.

Are we just hoping that Taylor will be better?

Are we hoping Taylor is better because, well, we really don't have a choice?

 

We don't who will and won't be upgrades until the bullets start flying.  As I've said before, Zac may be the next Sean McVay or he could be the next Dave Shula.  We just don't know.  However, given the loyalty Brown has shown Marvin, I think we can all reasonably assume that if Mike Brown thought Marvin was getting the most out of the talent on the roster, Marvin would still have a job.  Whether Mike's correct, we don't know.  Whether Taylor and the new staff can get more out of this roster than Marvin and company, we don't know.

What I will say with Marvin is that it was pretty clear that he lost the locker room.  I don't think they hated him, but I don't think they believed in him anymore.  He failed on the big stage too many times with too many different supporting casts.  It was like he was Wile E. Coyote and he might get close, but everything was going to blow up in his face and he was going to fall off the cliff before achieving the end goal.

[BengalChris]

(07-18-2019, 12:00 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: Of course it’s hope, Taylor hasn’t coached a game yet. There were some good coordinators under Marv, but there were also some terrible ones (Bresnahan) and some terrible position coaches (Haslett).

And for all the good stuff that Marv did, he still had a lot of weaknesses in his “game”, i.e. playoffs, prime time, clock management, in-game adjustments. Which all ended in 3 straight losing seasons.

Yep

[Circleville Guy]

The question that I have is: Have the Bengal improvements been better than the other teams improvements. You know, the teams that were already better than the Bengals. That means that the Bengals had to improve vastly for it to even matter.

[Thundercloud]

It's all going to depend on injuries, or the absence thereof. We've already taken a couple of tough shots, with Jonah Williams and Clint Boling. I think we could all be anticipating some significant line improvement if we still had those two back in the mix.

But odds are that we do better with AJ Green, Dalton, Preston Brown, Lawson, and Glassgow. Pratt could make a difference, also, and I think Wren is a possible surprise, and maybe Sample. It all remains to be seen, but I completely understand the point of the OP.

[BonnieBengal]

(07-17-2019, 10:28 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I think we’re counting on better coaching and players improving from year to year. Marvin leaving could be a huge addition by subtraction.

Maybe these coaches can manage the clock and make halftime adjustments.  That would be an upgrade.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-17-2019, 09:47 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When I look at the roster overall I find it hard to locate any position that has been improved much. Here's the project starters.

QB Dalton - no change
RB Mixon - no change
LT Glenn - no change
LG Jerry - change from Boling, but is he any better really? Or is it going to be Westerman stepping in?
C Price - no change, but he's coming in healthy and has a year under his belt. I expect improvement.
RG Miller - upgrade over false start guy (whatever his name was)
RT Hart - no change where an upgrade was very warranted
TE Eifert - coming in healthy, as usual - How long will he last? Uzomah ended up starting last season and may very well be the guy this year, so no change here either.
WR1 AJ Green - no change
WR2 Boyd - no change
WR3 ???? - any consistency would be an upgrade, but did we acquire that consistency? Will anyone show up as a consistent WR here or do we just move Eifert out to WR as his starting role and start Uzomah at TE? Personally, I believe Eifert moved outside as a WR and Uzomah as starting TE puts our best hands on the field and creates the best kind of mis-matches.

Has the offense been upgraded? Or are we counting on people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?


Projected defensive starters:

LDR Dunlap - no change
DT Atkins - no change
NT Billings - no change
DE Hubbard - an upgrade over MJ, but was here last season.
DL rotation - several guys are returning from injuries and that depth should improve the DL's performance overall.
LB Vigil - no change
LB Brown - no change. Are we counting on him being healthy as the upgrade over last season's tackling void?
LB Pratt - Hopefully he'll be an upgrade over how Burfict played last season.
CB Willie Jackson - no change
CB Kirkpatrick - no change
CB Dennard - no change, Webb isn't better than Dennard but he could help out if a starting corner misses a game or two.
FS Bates - no change
SS Williams - no change

Again, I have to ask, are we counting people not being injured in 2019 as our upgrade?

Well, being the optimist that I am....

On offense:  New coach, new scheme.  Teams won't be teeing off on formations that everyone and their brother knows are run plays.  Speaking of the run, we have two new, young RBs that will be pushing for playing time.  Competition improves the breed.  We will also hopefully see Ross used for something other than vertical routes outside the red zone.  Remember, the offense wasn't the problem last year until injuries cost them.  Dalton had a great (should have been) game-winning drive against pitt only to see the defense not hold it.  

I also think that Price in year two, Miller at RG, and Hart improving (remember, he will turn 25 in August...Whitworth never became a starting tackle until he was 27) will pay huge dividends in the run game, and the apparent emphasis on play-action should benefit as well.  

On defense:  The biggest improvement will be the subtraction of Teryl Austin.  Complete dunce.  The team last year looked substantially better after his dismissal, even with so many out injured.  And the addition of Pratt and the return of Brown will be a big improvement in what was our weakest unit a year ago.  Vigil missed games last year as well. 

What has me most excited is the return of Carl Lawson.  I think the tandem of him and Hubbard at RDE with Dunlap and WIllis at LDE will be strong.  Billings took a small step last year, and will be pushed by the likes of Glasgow, Wren, and maybe Ringo?  

The back end of the defense is our absolute strength, which makes it all the more maddening that they wasted top picks on a panty-waste zone scheme that played off coverage.  It would be like drafting a QB #1 overall and only running the ball.  Dumb, dumb, dumb...  

So, in summary, I see a team with new coaching across the board that SHOULD be leaps and bounds more innovative than under Marv and co.  I see the return of numerous starters and a couple new pieces from the draft.  

If nothing else, I am really hoping they won't be such a boring team to watch.  That alone has me more excited and optimistic for 2019.  I have been clammoring for a more aggressive mindset on defense for ages, and more creativity on offense as well.  Hoping those two things have the kind of impact that McVay had replacing the similarly boring Jeff Fisher.