Dalton's make or break year

[*jason*]

(07-19-2019, 02:09 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I'm not blaming anyone until I see how this team responds under Zac Taylor. I always read "so and so's not going to get any better after X amount of years". Those are people that think coaching doesn't matter. It absolutely does. For Exhibit A, I give you: Carson Palmer under Bruce Arians.

I think we're gonna see Jameis Winston save his career with Arians this year too.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-20-2019, 04:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I didn't read the last couple pages because i have a question. 

All of the great QBs that have been mentioned, at some point or another, has overcome adversity around them in a crucial game to pull it out. 

Can anyone list the Sunday night, Monday night or playoff game(s) where Dalton has overcome adversity around him to lead the team to a win? Is there even one in a 8 year career? I'm asking because none pop out in my head right now. The final game of '12 where they beat the Steelers on the road--where he threw the pass to AJ before the winning FG--comes to mind. The Monday night(?) game against Denver maybe? He didn't even have 200 yds passing but he had a 93 rating. 

I'm wondering because, as i said, the great one's will do that a time or two and i'm interested if Dalton has ever done it.

Led us down the field in the first Steeler game of this last year for the score, but I'm not sure if that was a primetime game or not.

Unfortunately, last place defense did their part to ensure the loss.

[*Nately120*]

(07-20-2019, 09:40 PM)jason Wrote: I think we're gonna see Jameis Winston save his career with Arians this year too.

Maybe...but I doubt this year.  Palmer's first year in Arians' high risk system led to 22 INTs, so I expect Winston to be extra INT-prone during the first year at least.  Arians runs a high risk and high reward system, so even when they are winning the QB is prone to tossing a lot of INTs.  So, I'd hold off on expectations for Winston to look good for a year at least.

Just my quick take.

[Luvnit2]

(07-20-2019, 09:41 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Led us down the field in the first Steeler game of this last year for the score, but I'm not sure if that was a primetime game or not.

Unfortunately, last place defense did their part to ensure the loss.

Dalton gave Bengals the lead (Bengals were 4-1 at time) with 1 minute to go. Defense gave up TD and 2 point conversion for loss in prime time.

So, that is one example off top of my head and sure others. Our season went south after that loss due to our defense and OL, but hey the Dalton haters blame AD for all losses.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-20-2019, 09:38 PM)jason Wrote: Oh... I missed the night and playoff caveat in his post. Sometimes I forget that 1 pm Eastern games don't count.

They count, they’re just usually not against top teams, or big rivals. He played well against Baltimore in prime time last season, but the KC game was an embarrassment.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-20-2019, 09:41 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Led us down the field in the first Steeler game of this last year for the score, but I'm not sure if that was a primetime game or not.

Unfortunately, last place defense did their part to ensure the loss.

That was a 1:00 game.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-20-2019, 09:38 PM)jason Wrote: Oh... I missed the night and playoff caveat in his post. Sometimes I forget that 1 pm Eastern games don't count.

Nobody said they don't count. Every QB plays the majority of their games at 1:00. I'm talking about the games where the spotlight is brighter. And i'm just looking for one example where he carried the team to a win. 

He's played eight seasons. Don't you think there'd be one time he did it?

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-21-2019, 03:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Nobody said they don't count. Every QB plays the majority of their games at 1:00. I'm talking about the games where the spotlight is brighter. And i'm just looking for one example where he carried the team to a win. 

He's played eight seasons. Don't you think there'd be one time he did it?

Marvin Lewis was 8-31 in primetime games, and Andy Dalton is 5-19 in said games.

That would make Marvin Lewis 3-12 before Andy even showed up... 

Can we honestly say this is an Andy Dalton problem, or a full blown Bengal problem?

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-21-2019, 10:19 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Marvin Lewis was 8-31 in primetime games, and Andy Dalton is 5-19 in said games.

That would make Marvin Lewis 3-12 before Andy even showed up... 

Can we honestly say this is an Andy Dalton problem, or a full blown Bengal problem?

Dalton haters don't want to hear "your facts" . . . they only want you to see things through THEIR narrative and are usually flabbergasted when you don't.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-21-2019, 10:19 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Marvin Lewis was 8-31 in primetime games, and Andy Dalton is 5-19 in said games.

That would make Marvin Lewis 3-12 before Andy even showed up... 

Can we honestly say this is an Andy Dalton problem, or a full blown Bengal problem?

I'm not looking to assign blame. I'm just looking for a game where Dalton overcame some adversity to lead the team to a win. 

There's always still so much debate about where he stands among other QBs. It's pretty obvious he's a middle of the pack, average QB but so many are still hesitant to be willing to move on and try to find someone better, because '90s, that they're content with mediocrity. 

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-21-2019, 11:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm not looking to assign blame. I'm just looking for a game where Dalton overcame some adversity to lead the team to a win. 

There's always still so much debate about where he stands among other QBs. It's pretty obvious he's a middle of the pack, average QB but so many are still hesitant to be willing to move on and try to find someone better, because '90s, that they're content with mediocrity. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_active.htm

ranked number 8 in game winning drives since 1960 (amongst active players), what more do you need to know?

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-21-2019, 11:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm not looking to assign blame. I'm just looking for a game where Dalton overcame some adversity to lead the team to a win. 

There's always still so much debate about where he stands among other QBs. It's pretty obvious he's a middle of the pack, average QB but so many are still hesitant to be willing to move on and try to find someone better, because '90s, that they're content with mediocrity. 

How many of those other QBs had a coach that you would not choose over Marvin Lewis?

[Shake n Blake]

(07-20-2019, 02:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Dalton is better than Dilfer, much like 25+ starting QBs in any given year.  With that said, Dilfer's crappy post-season numbers are still better than Dalton's.

I didn't say being better than Dilfer is an achievement. I was saying that we shouldn't be comparing Dalton to him in the first place. It's not close.

Yeah the post-season numbers are better for Dilfer, but then again, he didn't play for a coach who set records for playoff futility.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-21-2019, 11:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm not looking to assign blame. I'm just looking for a game where Dalton overcame some adversity to lead the team to a win.  

The guy has won 68 games, with 20 4th quarter comebacks and 24 game-winning drives. You don't think he faced adversity in any of those? 

How about these:

- Led a 4th qtr comeback on the road against Tennessee, throwing 3 TD's (2011)
- Led us to a slim 34-27 win over the Browns where we needed every point. Threw 3 TD's and 300 yards despite taking 6 sacks (2012)
- Led a road win over Washington when the score was tied at 24 going into the 4th. He threw a pair of 4th quarter TDs to seal the lead. (2012)
- Helped lead a comeback from a 30-14 deficit against GB by throwing 2 TD's in the last 18 minutes. (2013)
- 337 yards + 3 TD's in 27-24 road win against Buffalo (2013)
- 372 yards + 3 TD's in 27-24 road win against Detroit, including 2 quick completion in 26 seconds to set up game-winning FG (2013)
- Threw game-winning 77 yard TD pass against Baltimore with less than 5 minutes in 4th qtr.
- Led a 27-24 last minute win over Baltimore with Sanu and Greg Little as his starting WR's and Hill/Gio rushing for 70 yards combined on 26 carries

...and that's just his first 4 years. The last 4 have included games like the comeback vs Seattle and the game where Andy was sacked 7 times (@ Jets) and threw for 366 yards, gutting out a close win.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-21-2019, 03:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The guy has won 68 games, with 20 4th quarter comebacks and 24 game-winning drives. You don't think he faced adversity in any of those? 

How about these:

- Led a 4th qtr comeback on the road against Tennessee, throwing 3 TD's (2011)
- Led us to a slim 34-27 win over the Browns where we needed every point. Threw 3 TD's and 300 yards despite taking 6 sacks (2012)
- Led a road win over Washington when the score was tied at 24 going into the 4th. He threw a pair of 4th quarter TDs to seal the lead. (2012)
- Helped lead a comeback from a 30-14 deficit against GB by throwing 2 TD's in the last 18 minutes. (2013)
- 337 yards + 3 TD's in 27-24 road win against Buffalo (2013)
- 372 yards + 3 TD's in 27-24 road win against Detroit, including 2 quick completion in 26 seconds to set up game-winning FG (2013)
- Threw game-winning 77 yard TD pass against Baltimore with less than 5 minutes in 4th qtr.
- Led a 27-24 last minute win over Baltimore with Sanu and Greg Little as his starting WR's and Hill/Gio rushing for 70 yards combined on 26 carries

...and that's just his first 4 years. The last 4 have included games like the comeback vs Seattle and the game where Andy was sacked 7 times (@ Jets) and threw for 366 yards, gutting out a close win.

Can you win with an above average to good but not great QB in the NFL? Probably.

Can you win with inept management? Occasionally.

Can you win with average to above average coaching? Probably.

Can you win in the playoffs with all 3 of those things? No. Not consistently.

For anyone who questions why we have issues, look no further than free agency and somewhat the draft. Management had excitement with a new coach and absolutely tanked free agency. It was a tailor made opportunity to revitalize the fanbase.

Then during the draft, they reach for a blocking TE in the 2nd Round who didn't even think he'd go that high. Yes - We fans will give him the benefit of the doubt as that's what we do. But, it's not a good situation.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-21-2019, 04:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Can you win with an above average to good but not great QB in the NFL? Probably.

Can you win with inept management? Occasionally.

Can you win with average to above average coaching? Probably.

Can you win in the playoffs with all 3 of those things? No. Not consistently.

For anyone who questions why we have issues, look no further than free agency and somewhat the draft. Management had excitement with a new coach and absolutely tanked free agency. It was a tailor made opportunity to revitalize the fanbase.

Then during the draft, they reach for a blocking TE in the 2nd Round who didn't even think he'd go that high. Yes - We fans will give him the benefit of the doubt as that's what we do. But, it's not a good situation.

I doubt our coaching and management would've put a QB in position to even be elite. Take Drew Brees and swap him with Dalton during the Marv era. You think he's still 'Drew Brees' with Marv in place of Sean Payton? Payton is the one who turned him into the 5000 yard super bowl winner. He was "decent" in San Diego.

Now would Brees be better than Dalton? Probably, but not the elite guy we know now. So suggesting we need(ed) an elite QB to offset Marv/Mike is a non-starter IMO. You need good coaching/management to get a guy to reach elite status.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(07-22-2019, 12:23 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I doubt our coaching and management would've put a QB in position to even be elite. Take Drew Brees and swap him with Dalton during the Marv era. You think he's still 'Drew Brees' with Marv in place of Sean Payton? Payton is the one who turned him into the 5000 yard super bowl winner. He was "decent" in San Diego.

Now would Brees be better than Dalton? Probably, but not the elite guy we know now. So suggesting we need(ed) an elite QB to offset Marv/Mike is a non-starter IMO. You need good coaching/management to get a guy to reach elite status.

So we’ve compared Dalton to Brees , Brady n Manning in this thread. Plus now we can’t call manhole covers “manhole “ in California. I think the world is officially crazy.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-22-2019, 03:26 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: So we’ve compared Dalton to Brees , Brady n Manning in this thread.   Plus now we can’t call manhole covers “manhole “ in California.   I think the world is officially crazy.

Yeah, he's nothing like Brees. San Diego took a "can't miss" stud offensive player in the 1st round and luckily Brees fell to them in the 2nd. Brees has a below average arm, gets rid of the ball quickly and didn't tear the league up with a conservative coach. Nothing like Dalton at all.

He more or less got ran out of San Diego because of a stupid, impatient fanbase and front office that knew for a fact that all they needed to solve all of their problems was a first round QB. They drafted a 1st round QB after Brees' third year when he lost his job to Doug Flutie. When they drafted Rivers, they had to pay him top 5 money to sit for two years because Brees finally clicked with having LaDanian Tomlinson in his backfield for almost every snap in San Diego . . . then they had to pay Brees Franchise money while having a very high priced 2nd year QB holding a clipboard. That doesn't help your team's ability to sign free agents.

Then Brees hooks up with offensive minded Sean Payton and Payton devised up a gameplan around the strengths of Brees. If only there was some comparison to go by with Dalton.

[Catmandude123]

(07-22-2019, 12:23 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I doubt our coaching and management would've put a QB in position to even be elite. Take Drew Brees and swap him with Dalton during the Marv era. You think he's still 'Drew Brees' with Marv in place of Sean Payton? Payton is the one who turned him into the 5000 yard super bowl winner. He was "decent" in San Diego.

Now would Brees be better than Dalton? Probably, but not the elite guy we know now. So suggesting we need(ed) an elite QB to offset Marv/Mike is a non-starter IMO. You need good coaching/management to get a guy to reach elite status.

So you believe Brees would have lost four straight PO games?

[Luvnit2]

(07-22-2019, 10:12 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: So you believe Brees would have lost four straight PO games?

I have no idea, but neither do you as there is no common comparison. Dalton lost road games his first 2 years in the league and lost all 4 playoff games in his first 4 years in the league. Bree was not good enough to get his team, to the playoffs his first 4 years (SD and Saints) so no way to know.