At what point are you OK with a total rebuild

[THE PISTONS]

(07-22-2019, 01:27 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I suppose I feel OK about Glenn and Price. Glenn because he's done well in the past and I don't remember noticing him all that often last year, and Price because I'm expecting him to take a step forward in his second year. Neither is a sure thing admittedly, but I can roll with both I suppose.

For a guy that quotes PFF scores as much as you do I think you at least have to be willing to give Westerman a chance. My understanding is they've scored him very high and like him a lot - I think they've called him a guy they like to see more of and so I'm not going to necessarily throw in the towel on him just yet.

I do worry about the right side of the line. Maybe the coaching staff actually does manage to improve the play of Hart, but I need to see it before I believe it. I think there's a decent chance we see Jordan at RG. A lot of question marks over there. I expect Drew Sample to spend a lot of time lined up next to Hart as well.

My biggest concern is just depth, particularly at tackle. Not sure what happens if Glenn gets hurt. 

I've been on the Westerman should be playing bandwagon for a couple years now.

That said, I recognize that 2 offensive line coaches chose to start what Hopkins and Redmond over him. So I don't know.

But, yes in limited snaps, he seemed to produce fairly decent.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-22-2019, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here you go again just making stuff up.

Cordy Glenn has always been a starter and would start on most teams.

Nick Price is a first round pick who would start on most teams.

John Jerry has over 100 career starts.

John Miller was a starter last year and has been a starter most of his career.

I'm talking their level currently. Not their career best level that was years ago in some cases.

Miller was a fringe starter in Buffalo...in and out of their lineup and my premise was 'start on most teams'. I doubt that Miller would start on most teams this year.

Jerry? He was out of the league last year. I doubt that he'd be a starter on 'most teams' this year.

Nice Price is a golfer that is 62 years old and weighs 189 lbs. I'm pretty sure he'd start on 0 teams.

Glenn? In his prime he was a good to great tackle. He's been injured a lot the past 3 years. The Bengals were willing to move him to Guard and stick with Hart at Tackle. I think that doesn't bode well for Glenn being a starter on 'most teams'.

[fredtoast]

(07-22-2019, 03:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm talking their level currently. Not their career best level that was years ago in some cases.

Miller was a fringe starter in Buffalo...in and out of their lineup and my premise was 'start on most teams'. I doubt that Miller would start on most teams this year.

Jerry? He was out of the league last year. I doubt that he'd be a starter on 'most teams' this year.

Nice Price is a golfer that is 62 years old and weighs 189 lbs. I'm pretty sure he'd start on 0 teams.

Glenn? In his prime he was a good to great tackle. He's been injured a lot the past 3 years. The Bengals were willing to move him to Guard and stick with Hart at Tackle. I think that doesn't bode well for Glenn being a starter on 'most teams'.

So basically even though all these guys were starters you say they are not starters.  


How can I argue with logic like that?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-22-2019, 10:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: One hidden thing in the Glenn statistics is that in 2016 he got injured and only played in 11 games...so while his grade was high, that injury seemed to be the start of his decline. Then the next season he only played in 6 games.

Then we traded for him and he played in 13 games.

But, the last 2 years he's graded out poorly.

Buffalo likely saw the decline coming and traded him.

I get it, but let's not forget the turds Buffalo was rolling out there as QBs...not exactly quick-thinking, quick-release guys.  His job wasn't easy.  I hope he even return somewhat to form.  

If the Bengals get a great year out of Glenn, they could be set up very well, on the offensive side of things.  

[Murdock2420]

(07-22-2019, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the problem with your logic.  Lots of "can't miss" guys actually miss.

You mention Rodgers and he is a perfect example.  Alex Smith was the #1 overall "can't miss" pick in the '05 draft  and he won a total of 19 games in his first six seasons.  Rodgers was not taken until the bottom quarter of the first round (24th) just one pick in front of Jason Campbell.

True, some of the can't miss guys do miss, but it you never try for one of them you are going to have a roster full of middle of the pack kinda guys. You have to take a chance at some point and do something different to get over the hump.

We've done the same thing over and over and over and have no playoff wins or championships to show for it. So, it one thing doesn't work after all these years, at some point you have to try a new approach. 

Got the new coach, so he has a small window where people will expect growing pains. Let him get a new young QB to groom and things could be interesting.

[Luvnit2]

(07-22-2019, 04:09 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I get it, but let's not forget the turds Buffalo was rolling out there as QBs...not exactly quick-thinking, quick-release guys.  His job wasn't easy.  I hope he even return somewhat to form.  

If the Bengals get a great year out of Glenn, they could be set up very well, on the offensive side of things.  

I agree, a year for Williams to learn the playbook and get his entire body healthy was not ideal, but maybe he comes in fresh in 2020. I like Price as well, hopefully he gets better week by week and game by game in 2019. Hart is a mystery to me, he has 2 different OL coaches, 2 different head coaches showing him love so there is hope in my mind. Don't forget, he was signed prior to drafting Williams.

Glenn is more than capable of securing the LT spot so he may be huge surprise (most have written him off).

I can't wait for the fun to begin, I am not optimistic, but that will not stop me from enthusiastically rooting for them. I hope they prove me dead wrong.

[Luvnit2]

(07-22-2019, 04:16 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: True, some of the can't miss guys do miss, but it you never try for one of them you are going to have a roster full of middle of the pack kinda guys. You have to take a chance at some point and do something different to get over the hump.

We've done the same thing over and over and over and have no playoff wins or championships to show for it. So, it one thing doesn't work after all these years, at some point you have to try a new approach. 

Got the new coach, so he has a small window where people will expect growing pains. Let him get a new young QB to groom and things could be interesting.

Some may expect growing pains, I do not. ZT is taking over a vet team that was overwhelmed by injuries in 2018. A better health year in 2019 eliminates any excuse for growing pains so we wait and see how the injury bug impacts the 2019 team.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-22-2019, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So basically even though all these guys were starters you say they are not starters.  


How can I argue with logic like that?

You're missing the 'on most teams' part. And the 'current' part.

Jerry was out of the league last year. Do you think he's start for the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns?

[fredtoast]

(07-22-2019, 04:25 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Jerry was out of the league last year. Do you think he's start for the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns?

Maybe.  In 2017 Jerry only gave up 1.5 sacks and over his last 3 seasons with the Giants (40 starts) he only allowed 3.5.

[THE PISTONS]

Jerry might not even start here.

[firstand10]

First of all what do you mean by a total rebuild? Let's say the team goes 3-13 under ZT. Is that his fault or is it just a new system?  We should have went after a QB in this years draft. But,as usual the powers to be decided against that. Which brings us back to the original point of contention. If we have a poor record right out of the gate, what do we do? A total rebuild would leave us right where we started at. IMHO I say let's go with what we got and let the cards fall as they may! We gave ML 16 yrs of total incompetence why would we not not give Zach at least a chance?

[Murdock2420]

(07-22-2019, 04:23 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Some may expect growing pains, I do not. ZT is taking over a vet team that was overwhelmed by injuries in 2018. A better health year in 2019 eliminates any excuse for growing pains so we wait and see how the injury bug impacts the 2019 team.

The O-line is a mess though and already hammered with injuries. Starting LT and LG gone before the season starts. With no O-line I can't see much success this year.

[fredtoast]

(07-22-2019, 04:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Jerry might not even start here.

That is possible.

Doesn't change the fact that you are just making up your claim that none of our O-linemen would start on most NFL teams.

[XenoMorph]

(07-22-2019, 04:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The O-line is a mess though and already hammered with injuries. Starting LT and LG gone before the season starts. With no O-line I can't see much success this year.

Same starting LT from last year is our starting LT this year... So no loss there... (cant miss what you never had)

LG is changing...  but we brought in 2 OG's and drafted another (and have 2 guys waiting from last year)....   One of them should be able to start for us or its time to can tobin.

RT was Retained... RG was upgraded....

While it might not improve if the players themselves don't... It looks at worse to stand even with last year.

+ add in a Good Blocking TE to help whichever OT needs it....

[Murdock2420]

(07-22-2019, 05:07 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Same starting LT from last year is our starting LT this year... So no loss there... (cant miss what you never had)

LG is changing...  but we brought in 2 OG's and drafted another (and have 2 guys waiting from last year)....   One of them should be able to start for us or its time to can tobin.

RT was Retained...  RG was upgraded....        

While it might not improve if the players themselves don't...  It looks at worse to stand even with last year.

+ add in a Good Blocking TE to help whichever OT needs it....

I wish I had your hope, I just have a bad feeling this line is going to be the issue all season long. Dalton like most QB's doesn't do well with pressure and the revolving door at RT is going to be an issue. 

I hope I am wrong, but right now it is just hard to be excited when the biggest area of need is still a big area of need.

[Luvnit2]

(07-22-2019, 05:07 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Same starting LT from last year is our starting LT this year... So no loss there... (cant miss what you never had)

LG is changing...  but we brought in 2 OG's and drafted another (and have 2 guys waiting from last year)....   One of them should be able to start for us or its time to can tobin.

RT was Retained...  RG was upgraded....        

While it might not improve if the players themselves don't...  It looks at worse to stand even with last year.

+ add in a Good Blocking TE to help whichever OT needs it....

I hope Sample can stay healthy, we have not had a great blocking TE since Reggie Kelly. Our fans forget a TE that can block well can be OL's best friend for both passing and running game.

 The Pats were fortunate to have a duel threat with Gronk, hopefully Sample can learn to be a receiving threat also, but in interim if he is as advertised very good blocker, he adds a dimension team has lacked for a very long time.

[bengals67]

this is a three year project by Taylor. He inherited one of the worst o lines and LB groups in the league.

we are already in re-build mode.

If I were AJ I or Tyler would go to the Pats or another genuine contender next year. 

They have no chance of seeing a Super Bowl playing for Bengals with potential roster for next 2 to 3 years.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-22-2019, 09:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm attaching an article on Glenn because I think it shows what Glenn was before coming to Cincinnati (insert Bengalized joke here).  He was injured during parts of last season and clearly underachieved.  How much of it was Glenn and how much of it was the scheme and learning from a new offensive line coach?  He is learning a new offense again, but maybe he returns to his prior to 2018 form?  

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-bills-t-cordy-glenn-still-recovering-from-injury

A couple key points from the article:  

• Seen as one of the premier pass-blocking tackles in the league, Glenn has ranked inside the top 20 every season but one in terms of pass-blocking grade with grades of 84.0 (2013), 83.2 (2014), 87.6 (2015) and 86.4 (2016). The only exception came in his rookie season.
• Last season, Glenn only surrendered 17 total pressures, which ranked third among OTs, and had a pass-blocking efficiency of 96.4, which ranked eighth.
  

I see Glenn as a key piece in terms of returning to his prior form, or at least closer to it than he was last year.

Westerman is finally going to get his shot at the position he supposedly covets, and if he can avoid some strange disease where he drops 20 lbs right before the season starts, he could be an upgrade over Boling.  Sure, he lacks Boling's consistency but he is definitely a stronger guy and showed in limited action what he could do in the past couple years.

Price is the guy I am most excited about.  He looks absolutely massive, and seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder.  He will be 100% for the first time in his young NFL career, and with a full camp and everyone learning a new offense together, I think his leadership and abilities will shine.  I think he will be the most improved player on the team.  

I honestly haven't watched Miller enough to speak accurately about him.  All I know is the Bengals wanted him and he has solid rankings, especially in run blocking.  A big upgrade over last year's tough but undisciplined Redmond.

And everyone's favorite whipping boy, Bobby Hart.  A man who turns 25 at the start of the season.  He has all the measurables.  He has a lot of NFL experience, but always made the dumb penalty at the wrong time.  I think he played well enough last year that being next to a more experienced RG will show a significant upgrade over a year ago.  People forget that Whit didn't start at OT until he was 27.  I remember Whit getting absolutely destroyed by Dwight Freeny at a game when he got moved to LT and he was coming back to the huddle with a dazed look on his face and shaking his head in disbelief.  I thought to myself:  "That guy has no business being out there" and now he is a borderline HOF.

I am not calling Hart a future HOF, but I do believe he will be in the top half of the league this year.  And that will be the makings of a very solid line.  There isn't a lot of depth, but the added running backs combined with the added emphasis on the rushing attack should play to the strengths of this line.  

Made me feel much better about Line and the team as a whole SHRacer, thanks man, great post.

Hope this all comes to fruition, it is a possibility.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-22-2019, 05:07 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Same starting LT from last year is our starting LT this year... So no loss there... (cant miss what you never had)

LG is changing...  but we brought in 2 OG's and drafted another (and have 2 guys waiting from last year)....   One of them should be able to start for us or its time to can tobin.

RT was Retained...  RG was upgraded....        

While it might not improve if the players themselves don't...  It looks at worse to stand even with last year.

+ add in a Good Blocking TE to help whichever OT needs it....

(07-22-2019, 05:38 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I hope Sample can stay healthy, we have not had a great blocking TE since Reggie Kelly. Our fans forget a TE that can block well can be OL's best friend for both passing and running game.

 The Pats were fortunate to have a duel threat with Gronk, hopefully Sample can learn to be a receiving threat also, but in interim if he is as advertised very good blocker, he adds a dimension team has lacked for a very long time.

No doubt, cannot forget about Sample, could be the most underrated pick besides Pratt.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-22-2019, 04:20 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree, a year for Williams to learn the playbook and get his entire body healthy was not ideal, but maybe he comes in fresh in 2020. I like Price as well, hopefully he gets better week by week and game by game in 2019. Hart is a mystery to me, he has 2 different OL coaches, 2 different head coaches showing him love so there is hope in my mind. Don't forget, he was signed prior to drafting Williams.

Glenn is more than capable of securing the LT spot so he may be huge surprise (most have written him off).

I can't wait for the fun to begin, I am not optimistic, but that will not stop me from enthusiastically rooting for them. I hope they prove me dead wrong.

I was always the eternal optimist.  However, I have even greater enthusiasm now because every time I would get excited about talent, or something, in the back of my mind I would always hear:  "It's still Marv".  No longer.