Thoughts after a few weeks...

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-17-2019, 10:37 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Why do so many of Dalton's biggest boo birds feel the need to conflate what other QBs do/ have done?

Did Tebow win the playoff game?  Or was in the Denver Broncos?  Those 2 TDs were caught right?  Could have easily been dropped. 

Did Tebow play defense?  I must have missed him stopping the Steelers offense and keeping the game close.

Again this isn't about Dalton, but how people like you evaluate QBs. 

I am not looking at stats, instead I am looking at it as a whole.  If Tebow, who is considered a bad QB, can win a playoff game, then so can Dalton.

I have brought up Foles before.  Foles hasn't just won a playoff game, he has a SB win.  Who do you think is the better QB?  To me they are both good, I think Dalton makes better decisions, but Foles has better measurables. Both can get the job done but neither will ever be called "dynamic". 

Going back to MVP.  If Mahomes is so good because he has MVP, then Foles has to be great because he has a SB ring and SB MVP award.  Which one of these trumps the other?  Which one would you rather your QB have?

Wow. This is a whole bunch of BS. 

Dalton hasn't won a playoff game so, to now, no, he can't. 

Foles was better than Dalton has ever been when he led the team to a SB win, in the same way Flacco was better than Dalton has ever been when he did the same thing. Neither QB is better, overall, as a QB than Dalton is, but they were better when the pressure was at its most. 

If you really need to ask who is better because one has a SB ring and SB MVP, and one doesn't, you are completely lost. They're not mutually exclusive. Mahomes doesn't have the SB ring and SB MVP, but he doesn't need them to be the better QB.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-17-2019, 10:41 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Nope.  It wouldn't.  Evidently it would on here.  The problem is most on here don't seem to want Dalton to have another shot at the post season as a Bengal.

I don't doubt that if Dalton were to go to another team that he would the same QB.  That team could easily make the playoffs and he could win one.  All the while the "dynamic" QB that we replaced Dalton with would fail to make the post season. Then all of the boo birds would refuse to admit that maybe... just maybe... QB wasn't the problem.

1. Strawman and a lie.

2. Conjecture.

You're not very good at this 'logical discussion' stuff, are you?

[grampahol]

My thoughts? I want to come back as a humming bird able to fly backwards in my next life and to be able to scare the crap out of people as I hum past when they think I'm some big bee about to sting them! 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 11:06 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Wow. This is a whole bunch of BS. 

Dalton hasn't won a playoff game so, to now, no, he can't. 

Foles was better than Dalton has ever been when he led the team to a SB win, in the same way Flacco was better than Dalton has ever been when he did the same thing. Neither QB is better, overall, as a QB than Dalton is, but they were better when the pressure was at its most. 

If you really need to ask who is better because one has a SB ring and SB MVP, and one doesn't, you are completely lost. They're not mutually exclusive. Mahomes doesn't have the SB ring and SB MVP, but he doesn't need them to be the better QB.

What a wonderful way to not actually answer the question.  Instead it is insinuating that I must not know the answer.  I know the answer, but I am trying to find out how you rate them. 

My position from the start is that there is no real such thing as a "better" QB just because one is "dynamic" (can run faster) than the other.  However I have been told that Jackson (who only has a few games under his belt), Mahomes (who had a great season and a nice start, but hasn't had any adversity in WR dropping catchable passes, poor OLine play, injuries to himself and to those around him, defenses falling apart and bad coaching) are far better than Dalton (who went to the playoffs 4 years and out of those 4 only has 1 post season game where he could be accurately and fairly criticized, and the 5th year, his best, was injured prior to the start of the playoffs and never has had a chance to get back). 

I haven't seen 1 argument that validates you position on rating QBs.  Only that you think we should move on from Dalton because, to you, he is terrible.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you are idiots.  You haven't refuted 1 on my statements.  All you have said was to "stop" doing it, because it irritates you.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 11:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 1. Strawman and a lie.

2. Conjecture.

You're not very good at this 'logical discussion' stuff, are you?

Ever hear the phrase "we can logically conclude"?

Logic is what allows us to conjecture, but do go on.

As to the Strawman... the post speak for themselves.  You and Nicomo, at least, have been adamant that we need to move on from Dalton.  When pressed to who should replace him, Nicomo said "if we are picking TOP 5 and a QB prospect that Taylor likes", that is so vague as to not actually be an answer.  However I agreed with him on the sentiment.  The problem is though, what happens if Taylor doesn't like the QB prospect that is hyped up throughout the process?  I can probably conjecture that at this point those who loved that prospect will call for Taylor to be fired.

BTW:  I have tried to keep this civil, however, you and Nicomo have been frothing with irrational disdain for anyone who seems to challenge your sentiments about evaluating QBs, especially Dalton.  I have seen that you have a Dalton subforum, and I know there are Haters Vs Supporters but my argument isn't strictly about Dalton, but about QB evaluation as a whole.  Neither one of you have stuck to a coherent argument and have tried to just get "digs" in and then proceed to make the vast majority of your post about Dalton, only and how he isn't any good just because you both have said so.  You have said you were going to ignore me, I have said I was going to ignore you, maybe we should just do so, hmm?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 10:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You're side stepping the issue again. He's been in position to make the throw and missed it every time.

And you'd be better off not building up strawman arguments to knock down. People can sniff those out a mile away and it makes you look less intelligent, as though you don't understand what is being discussed. 

"Missed every time?"    

I have noticed guys like you throw strawman around quite a bit when your position is rather weak and that you haven't actually produced any arguments.  I have been responding to you, but this is not an argument, as arguments have points and counter points.  None of my points have been countered, and when I have countered your points I get comments like "Bye Felicia".  Tell me again how you can spot "strawman", it is fascinating.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 10:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Show me where ESPN or Skip Bayless or anyone alive today has stated what i stated. 

Show me just one person on this entire earth that has stated it or anything close to it.

Unless you are Nicomo... you both have been all about Mahomes being stellar and call him one of the best QBs.  Jackson as well. 

Feel free to browse this thread.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 10:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? They tear the other guy down and don't give him the benefit of the excuses, yet they raise up all kinds of excuses why Dalton couldn't or didn't or could or should, "if".

Do they not see the hypocrisy in that? Seriously?

No one is "tearing" down another guy. 

You have thrown strawman around.  This is what one looks like.

All that was said was that if winning a playoff game is the pinnacle of a QB being "good" or not then Tebow would still be playing.  He isn't.  Tebow winning a playoff game means that Dalton is also capable of winning one.

This isn't a hard concept, yet you 2 especially can't seem to grasp it.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-17-2019, 10:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We are on the verge of having our 4th losing season in a row, so wanting Dalton to play in a playoff game is irrelevant.  Im not saying replacing Dalton is essential but this whole "don't rock the boat" mantra played a lot better when we weren't rattling off losing seasons like it was the 90s.

No doubt.  I get this sentiment.  I like to look at why we are on our 4th losing season and I look at how for 5 straight years we have playoff teams with good records to this point.

I look at the losses, many of them less than a TD, some by a FG (especially 2016, where 3 games, I think, were lost due to missing FGs).

I know that we had some people leave in FA, and we tried to draft their replacements and failed.  I will say, at least we tried to address the issue, but if you miss on a prospect in the NFL, it can take 2 or 3 years to fix it.  Of course a good team will address the issue immediately, but we know that we don't have a good FO to do that.

[Catmandude123]

(09-17-2019, 09:36 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: True... but just because a QB wins 1 playoff game that doesn't make them good.

Tebow?

I know you are just here to argue but this team hasn't won a playoff game in a Quarter century. Winning a playoff game IS important. Dalton failed four straight times. He hasn't made the playoffs in going on four years. He has been the QB for nine years. Just when would it be alright to replace him? After 15 , 20, 25 years? The Bengals FO must be planting people like you to pump up propaganda so the fans won't totally revolt.

[yellowxdiscipline]

My thoughts after a few weeks:


It doesnt really feel like a "New Dey". It feels like were being fooled by the ownership once again.

[Big Boss]

We're really stuck no matter how you look at it.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with an offensive lineman. Cool. Except now you are officially in Dalton's last year under contract, and you'll finally need to make a decision on that. Suppose you don't want to re-sign him, but he wins enough games in 2020 to knock you out of the top 10 in 2021. So now you're in the No Man's Land of QB prospects in the draft that year.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with a quarterback. Cool. Who's blocking for him?

[Catmandude123]

(09-18-2019, 07:41 AM)Big Boss Wrote: We're really stuck no matter how you look at it.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with and offensive lineman.  Cool.  Except now you are officially in Dalton's last year under contract, and you'll finally need to make a decision on that.  Suppose you don't want to re-sign him, but he wins enough games to knock you out of the top 10 in 2021.  So now you're in the No Man's Land of QB prospects in the draft that year.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with quarterback.  Cool.  Who's blocking for him?

Free agency would help but we know MB won't go that route.

[yellowxdiscipline]

(09-18-2019, 07:41 AM)Big Boss Wrote: We're really stuck no matter how you look at it.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with and offensive lineman.  Cool.  Except now you are officially in Dalton's last year under contract, and you'll finally need to make a decision on that.  Suppose you don't want to re-sign him, but he wins enough games to knock you out of the top 10 in 2021.  So now you're in the No Man's Land of QB prospects in the draft that year.

Say we pick top 10 in 2020 and go with quarterback.  Cool.  Who's blocking for him?

Id rather invest in the line, and let maybe Finley take over for a year. I don't think this team is close to competing, were like 3-4 years away if we can make good decisions, but thats asking a lot from this management.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-18-2019, 06:50 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What a wonderful way to not actually answer the question.  Instead it is insinuating that I must not know the answer.  I know the answer, but I am trying to find out how you rate them. 

My position from the start is that there is no real such thing as a "better" QB just because one is "dynamic" (can run faster) than the other.  However I have been told that Jackson (who only has a few games under his belt), Mahomes (who had a great season and a nice start, but hasn't had any adversity in WR dropping catchable passes, poor OLine play, injuries to himself and to those around him, defenses falling apart and bad coaching) are far better than Dalton (who went to the playoffs 4 years and out of those 4 only has 1 post season game where he could be accurately and fairly criticized, and the 5th year, his best, was injured prior to the start of the playoffs and never has had a chance to get back). 

I haven't seen 1 argument that validates you position on rating QBs.  Only that you think we should move on from Dalton because, to you, he is terrible.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you are idiots.  You haven't refuted 1 on my statements.  All you have said was to "stop" doing it, because it irritates you.

Wrong. KC had a terrible defense last season. We were actually the only team that gave up more yds per game. Winning the MVP on a team with a really bad defense is absolutely “overcoming adversity.”

I also think it’s laughable you claim he never deals with WR’s dropping any passes. Now I’ll admit, I don’t watch every KC game, but something tells me that’s probably not true...

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2019, 07:34 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Just when would it be alright to replace him? 

When he is the reason we are not winning.

Was Denver stupid not to get rid of Elway after 8 years because it was impossible for him to ever win a Super Bowl?

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 06:50 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What a wonderful way to not actually answer the question.  Instead it is insinuating that I must not know the answer.  I know the answer, but I am trying to find out how you rate them. 

My position from the start is that there is no real such thing as a "better" QB just because one is "dynamic" (can run faster) than the other.  However I have been told that Jackson (who only has a few games under his belt), Mahomes (who had a great season and a nice start, but hasn't had any adversity in WR dropping catchable passes, poor OLine play, injuries to himself and to those around him, defenses falling apart and bad coaching) are far better than Dalton (who went to the playoffs 4 years and out of those 4 only has 1 post season game where he could be accurately and fairly criticized, and the 5th year, his best, was injured prior to the start of the playoffs and never has had a chance to get back). 

I haven't seen 1 argument that validates you position on rating QBs.  Only that you think we should move on from Dalton because, to you, he is terrible.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you are idiots.  You haven't refuted 1 on my statements.  All you have said was to "stop" doing it, because it irritates you.

You seem to be confused, a lot. 

Dalton isn't terrible. But he's not irreplaceable. You haven't made a point to refute, i've already told you how QBs are different. There's not one thing that defines a QB. 

The only thing you keep offering is excuses. If you can't determine on your own that Mahomes is a very good QB, nothing i tell you will help.

[fredtoast]

(09-17-2019, 10:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It would be used as the crown jewel of why Dalton should be considered a top 10 QB. 

Actually among a certain crowd here it would be considered "meaningless" because "all that matters is Championships".

Anyone happy with Dalton winning a single playoff game would be accused of "accepting mediocrity".

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-18-2019, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When he is the reason we are not winning.

Was Denver stupid not to get rid of Elway after 8 years because it was impossible for him to ever win a Super Bowl?

Was Alex Smith the reason KC wasn’t winning?

[*jason*]

(09-18-2019, 07:33 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: No doubt.  I get this sentiment.  I like to look at why we are on our 4th losing season and I look at how for 5 straight years we have playoff teams with good records to this point.

I look at the losses, many of them less than a TD, some by a FG (especially 2016, where 3 games, I think, were lost due to missing FGs).

I know that we had some people leave in FA, and we tried to draft their replacements and failed.  I will say, at least we tried to address the issue, but if you miss on a prospect in the NFL, it can take 2 or 3 years to fix it.  Of course a good team will address the issue immediately, but we know that we don't have a good FO to do that.

The 2015 draft, not adequately replacing Marvin Jones and Sanu until recently, having coordinators plucked, and stubborn front office I think are the main factors of getting us to where we are.