Thoughts after a few weeks...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-18-2019, 02:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually among a certain crowd here it would be considered "meaningless" because "all that matters is Championships".

Anyone happy with Dalton winning a single playoff game would be accused of "accepting mediocrity".

Not if it was against the Steelers...

[fredtoast]

(09-17-2019, 05:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The very bottom line is, even if only given 2 or 3 actual chances--in actual games he's played--he's failed in each of them to get the job done. 

And here is where you refuse to acknowledge reality.

Green fumbling after Dalton makes the throw is not DALTON failing.

Bullock missing an easy FG is not DALTON failing when all we needed was a FG to win.

The TEAM failed, but you refuse to acknowledge that.  Even when Dalton makes all the throws he needs to you try to put the blame on him.  It is ridiculous.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 07:05 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Ever hear the phrase "we can logically conclude"?

Logic is what allows us to conjecture, but do go on.

As to the Strawman... the post speak for themselves.  You and Nicomo, at least, have been adamant that we need to move on from Dalton.  When pressed to who should replace him, Nicomo said "if we are picking TOP 5 and a QB prospect that Taylor likes", that is so vague as to not actually be an answer.  However I agreed with him on the sentiment.  The problem is though, what happens if Taylor doesn't like the QB prospect that is hyped up throughout the process?  I can probably conjecture that at this point those who loved that prospect will call for Taylor to be fired.

BTW:  I have tried to keep this civil, however, you and Nicomo have been frothing with irrational disdain for anyone who seems to challenge your sentiments about evaluating QBs, especially Dalton.  I have seen that you have a Dalton subforum, and I know there are Haters Vs Supporters but my argument isn't strictly about Dalton, but about QB evaluation as a whole.  Neither one of you have stuck to a coherent argument and have tried to just get "digs" in and then proceed to make the vast majority of your post about Dalton, only and how he isn't any good just because you both have said so.  You have said you were going to ignore me, I have said I was going to ignore you, maybe we should just do so, hmm?

I will grant you frothing, but only at the numerous excuses you're offering, that are the same excuses that have been posted hundreds of times here. 

The simple answer to replacing Dalton is with Finley. He's the only QB on the roster right now who has a chance. The Giants just replaced Eli with a rookie. Are the Bengals so good, they can't possibly replace Dalton? But, before we get too far ahead...i'd rather they didn't replace him right now, but i wouldn't be upset if they did. 

Basically, you've accused me of saying he's terrible and wanting him gone right now, which isn't true. 

If you don't think i've stuck to a coherent argument, you're not reading my posts. I can give you my opinion on what i consider any QBs strength or weakness, but i just can't keep from being completely astounded when someone says Brady is a system QB. 

So, you come on board (welcome, btw), immediately start throwing Dalton excuses around, which people have been doing for years now, say things like Brady is a system QB...and then you're surprised when people question you?

Feel free to ignore me. I said i would, if you just kept offering excuses, and i've not done what i said. At some point, maybe i will. Or maybe i'll just be bored and go ahead and engage you again. Or maybe i'll see a point that i like and reply to that.  Life is wonderful that way :)

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 07:12 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: "Missed every time?"    

I have noticed guys like you throw strawman around quite a bit when your position is rather weak and that you haven't actually produced any arguments.  I have been responding to you, but this is not an argument, as arguments have points and counter points.  None of my points have been countered, and when I have countered your points I get comments like "Bye Felicia".  Tell me again how you can spot "strawman", it is fascinating.

Yes, missed every time, in the areas that were brought up. I'm guessing you missed the discussions. 

All, or at least almost all (i'd have to go back and read every single post--which i'm not going to do) of your points have been countered, more than once. 

[yang]

in my opinion, the top QB's are able to put a team on their back, make and create plays, to help overcome deficiencies on the team. When Dalton has a good team around him he tends to do well, when there are problems such as the current weak offensive line the cracks emerge. He doesn't avoid sacks. He doesn't scramble and make plays. He doesn't run well. He doesn't have a strong arm and has trouble throwing to his left. He also lacks that certain chutzpah and swagger that tends to help a team rally around him.

All of this is to say he is probably an above average QB, but he will never be a top tier, Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Brady, and so on.. He can't put the team on his back and carry them to victory. We have years of evidence to this fact.

#Tankit forTua or HopeforHebert!

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 07:15 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Unless you are Nicomo... you both have been all about Mahomes being stellar and call him one of the best QBs.  Jackson as well. 

Feel free to browse this thread.

This post makes no sense at all. I've mentioned Mahomes generally and i've mentioned specific things about him a couple times. For some reason, you're locked on to the guy like i think he's the second coming.    He's simply been part of a post a few times. If you're saying that, just like ESPN, i'm raving about him, then you are lost. 

Allow me, once again, to point toward the part of one of my posts where i explained to you why different QBs, in the same situation, will make different decisions that will impact the team, them and how they are perceived. For some reason, you have yet to even acknowledge that part of my post and i've referenced it several times since then.

It clearly explains why a guy like Dalton is considered an average QB and why a guy like Ben (OR ANY OTHER TOP QB) is considered great. It explains why bad QBs are bad, average QBs are average, good QBs are good and great QBs are great.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And here is where you refuse to acknowledge reality.
Green fumbling after Dalton makes the throw is not DALTON failing.
Bullock missing an easy FG is not DALTON failing when all we needed was a FG to win.

The TEAM failed, but you refuse to acknowledge that.  Even when Dalton makes all the throws he needs to you try to put the blame on him.  It is ridiculous.

Did you seriously just type that after replying to my post?

You may want to go back and read it again. Specifically the entire first paragraph. 

[fredtoast]

(09-17-2019, 05:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote:  In the 2016 Texans game he got the ball back with 3:46 on the clock. During the drive, Core beat his defender and Dalton overthrew him by 2 yards,

That play would not have gone for a td.

(09-17-2019, 05:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: At the end of the drive in the '16 Texans game, he made a bad, short throw to Uzo that caused him to go down, in bounds and keep the clock running, forcing Marv to call one more run play(only one TO left),

Wrong again.  Not having a time out would not force Marvin to call another run play.  That was a first down.  If Marvin needed more clock he would have had Andy spike it.  

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2019, 02:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Did you seriously just type that after replying to my post?

You may want to go back and read it again. Specifically the entire first paragraph. 

Did you read this?

(09-17-2019, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Andy actually has not been in that position very often, but he was driving us to a victory against the Texans in 2015 when Green gave the game away with a fumble with 50 seconds left.  Dalton was 6-8 for 66 yards driving us from our own 18 to the Texans 20 with juts 50 seconds left. Can't blame him for another players fumble.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When he is the reason we are not winning.

Was Denver stupid not to get rid of Elway after 8 years because it was impossible for him to ever win a Super Bowl?

How do you know he's not the reason they're not winning? 

[fredtoast]

(09-18-2019, 02:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How do you know he's not the reason they're not winning? 

0-2 Bengals

Pass offense ……….2nd in yards, 12th in efficiency (passer rating)
Rush offense...…..32nd in yards, 32nd in efficiency (yards per carry)
Defense......……….25th in yards, 31st in efficiency (yds per play)


What makes you say he is?

[Hammerstripes]

I've been one that hasn't place the blame on Dalton over the past few years. That being said, if this team sinks to 4-12 and it drafting top 5, then it's just time to move on from him. You never know when you get the chance to take a top tier QB, and this year has as few that fit that mold.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-16-2019, 12:24 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: If you fix the LB position and Offensive line position then this is a good team. Problem is we have been saying that for the 4th season in a row. Honestly Duke might be the Dumbest Human being to ever be GM excluding Mike Brown.

Assuming Duke Tobin didn't go to Mike Brown and say the Bengals should invest good $$ into a good veteran OL and LB (or two) and was shut down by Mike Brown.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-18-2019, 02:59 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I've been one that hasn't place the blame on Dalton over the past few years.  That being said, if this team sinks to 4-12 and it drafting top 5, then it's just time to move on from him.  You never know when you get the chance to take a top tier QB, and this year has as few that fit that mold.

I'm with you there. 

I think we CAN win in the playoffs with Dalton as QB, but if this ends up being yet another losing season and we are in position to draft a QB with great potential, I say do it.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-18-2019, 03:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Assuming Duke Tobin didn't go to Mike Brown and say the Bengals should invest good $$ into a good veteran OL and LB (or two) and was shut down by Mike Brown.

To be fair, I think Callahan was Taylor's choice but given his current status, it proved impossible to get him onto the Bengals coaching staff. I've heard that Callahan's contract is up after this season so there's a chance Taylor just went with Turner for this season due to familiarity until he can get Callahan.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-18-2019, 03:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Assuming Duke Tobin didn't go to Mike Brown and say the Bengals should invest good $$ into a good veteran OL and LB (or two) and was shut down by Mike Brown.

In all fairness, they did address the O-line more than usual

1st round tackle
Picked up Miller in FA.
tried to move up in round 2 (although who knows what for, I'm almost 100% it was for Jawann Taylor or Risner)

The Linebackers have always been putrid.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That play would not have gone for a td.



Wrong again.  Not having a time out would not force Marvin to call another run play.  That was a first down.  If Marvin needed more clock he would have had Andy spike it.  

1. Maybe, maybe not. It would have put them further down the field and who knows what plays would have been called and what would have happened. We do know he missed the throw. 

2. If Uzo stays up...he gets out of bounds and saves the TO. The TO issue was on Marv, but Dalton didn't do him any favors making him rush because of the bad throw. When he went down there was 44 seconds left on the clock. When they ran the next play there was 22 seconds at the snap. That's 22 seconds of time that they could have used. So, i was obviously not wrong again. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Did you read this?

Ok..i'll just ask you straight out, since you don't seem to be getting it.

I agreed with you that other players let him down. But you didn't see or say that. You accused me of refusing to acknowledge it. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-18-2019, 02:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 0-2 Bengals

Pass offense ……….2nd in yards, 12th in efficiency (passer rating)
Rush offense...…..32nd in yards, 32nd in efficiency (yards per carry)
Defense......……….25th in yards, 31st in efficiency (yds per play)


What makes you say he is?

So, he's thrown for a lot of yards. That is good but those yards aren't leading to touchdowns late to win games. 

I can only tell you to watch the all 22 film in Game pass to see how often he misses "better" receiving options. Because nothing i'm saying will convince you that he's doing just enough to have good stats, but not enough to win games. You don't really need it to see the ones that have already been pointed out that he's missed in crucial situations.

And...maybe you haven't said this, but what is more important, good stats or winning the game?

[*ochocincos*]

(09-18-2019, 03:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So, he's thrown for a lot of yards. That is good but those yards aren't leading to touchdowns late to win games. 

I can only tell you to watch the all 22 film in Game pass to see how often he misses "better" receiving options. Because nothing i'm saying will convince you that he's doing just enough to have good stats, but not enough to win games. You don't really need it to see the ones that have already been pointed out that he's missed in crucial situations.

And...maybe you haven't said this, but what is more important, good stats or winning the game?

Correct.
Cincinnati is last place in red zone scoring percentage.
They went from scoring a TD in 71% of their red zone appearances in 2018 to just 16.7% so far in 2019.
What's different from 2018 to 2019?
QB is the same. The receiving options are basically the same (AJ Green out but Eifert is back healthy).
The difference is the offensive playcalling.
As frustrating as Lazor was between the 20's, he called a good red zone game.