"Improvement" vs. "fixing everything"

[fredtoast]

I am not as down Zac as some here accuse me. If you go back to when we hired him you will see. Most of my concerns are about the staff, especially our DC. I also feel the front offfice did not do enough to help Zac turn this around. So I am not going to judge him too harshly this season.

However I do want to address one of the most common arguments I see from his supporters. They say that there is no way he could "fix everythying" in his first year. I agree with this, but say that even if he can't fix everything we should at least show some improvement from last year.

So far we have looked better than I expected in one game and much worse in another. It is impossible to decide anything based on just two games. But as the season progresses I want to see some consistent improvement.

I won't be happy if everything is not fixed this year, but as long as I see some improvement I will have a positive outlook for the future.

[grampahol]

We need more moral victories.. The ability to hold their heads high and say, "We coulda been a contender! We coulda been somebody!" 
Hey, nobody ever accused me of being a Debby Downer.  Actually they have, but I chose to pretend otherwise..

[jfkbengals]

Personally I believe we are seeing improvement on offense, it is certainly more dynamic than it has been over the last 2-3 years.

That is not to say it is fixed, as there are certainly mental lapses and lack of skill along the o-line. Bringing in better players will alleviate that.

The defense is where I worry most. We are built to have an early lead and rush the passer from the nickel package. We saw last week that we can not match up well to 21 or 22 personnel. That was a decision by the coaching staff at cut down to shape the roster that way, so that is all on them if it continues to be a problem.

[*Awful Llama*]

(09-22-2019, 11:42 AM)grampahol Wrote: We need more moral victories.. The ability to hold their heads high and say, "We coulda been a contender! We coulda been somebody!" 
Hey, nobody ever accused me of being a Debby Downer.  Actually they have, but I chose to pretend otherwise..

I think you belong On the Waterfront.  Seriously, get to fishing, man.  It's the only prayer we have today.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2019, 11:42 AM)grampahol Wrote: We need more moral victories.. The ability to hold their heads high and say, "We coulda been a contender! We coulda been somebody!" 

Yes, that is exactly right, except "could be" instead of past tense "coulda been".

If I see a team that is improving and on the way up I will feel better than seeing a team that is making no progress.

[Luvnit2]

(09-22-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not as down Zac as some here accuse me.  If you go back to when we hired him you will see.  Most of my concerns are about the staff, especially our DC.  I also feel the front offfice did not do enough to help Zac turn this around.  So I am not going to judge him too harshly this season.

However I do want to address one of the most common arguments I see from his supporters.  They say that there is no way he could "fix everythying" in his first year.  I agree with this, but say that even if he can't fix everything we should at least show some improvement from last year.  

So far we have looked better than I expected in one game and much worse in another.  It is impossible to decide anything based on just two games.  But as the season progresses I want to see some consistent improvement.  

I won't be happy if everything is not fixed this year, but as long as I see some improvement I will have a positive outlook for the future.

I judge improvement 1 way and that is wins versus losses versus 2018, the rest is all smoke in mirrors and mean nothing. If he wins 7 or more games he improved the team, if 6 or less he failed. I am not say fire him, but the roster was not blown up to rebuild so he should be able to do as well or better in wins as ML did.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2019, 12:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I judge improvement 1 way and that is wins versus losses versus 2018, the rest is all smoke in mirrors and mean nothing. 

Then you are clueless.

No one in their right mind would say the Bills are as good a team as the Patriots right now.  Everyone looks at stats, injuries, and other facts to decide how good teams really are.

[jfkbengals]

(09-22-2019, 12:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I judge improvement 1 way and that is wins versus losses versus 2018, the rest is all smoke in mirrors and mean nothing. If he wins 7 or more games he improved the team, if 6 or less he failed. I am not say fire him, but the roster was not blown up to rebuild so he should be able to do as well or better in wins as ML did.

But that doesn't really paint the picture.

Look at 2018.  With AJ and Andy in the lineup during the first half of the year, we were 5-3.  Without 1 or both in the second half of the season we were 1-7.

So suppose AJ never takes the field this season and we win 6 games, did Taylor fail as a HC?

[Luvnit2]

(09-22-2019, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then you are clueless.

No one in their right mind would say the Bills are as good a team as the Patriots right now.  Everyone looks at stats, injuries, and other facts to decide how good teams really are.

I am comparing 2018 and 2019, it is common sense, win more games you improved, lose more games (season). 

You are the clueless one on simple evaluation because you are getting caught up in emotion versus fact (win & losses versus prior year versus your feelings of how good or bad other teams may or may not be).

[Luvnit2]

(09-22-2019, 12:40 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: But that doesn't really paint the picture.

Look at 2018.  With AJ and Andy in the lineup during the first half of the year, we were 5-3.  Without 1 or both in the second half of the season we were 1-7.

So suppose AJ never takes the field this season and we win 6 games, did Taylor fail as a HC?

That is great point only if AJ was only guy injured after the 5-3 start, we all know not the case. They lost TE #1, #2 and # 4 for example.

Didn't they also start 4-1 and end up being 6-10, so lost a lot of games with AJ playing as well.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2019, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am comparing 2018 and 2019, it is common sense, win more games you improved, lose more games (season). 

You are the clueless one on simple evaluation because you are getting caught up in emotion versus fact (win & losses versus prior year versus your feelings of how good or bad other teams may or may not be).

I say the 2-0 Bills are not as good as the 2-0 Patriots, and you claim I am the one who is not using "common sense"?



That's a good one.

Every single sports fan I know looks at more than win loss record to evaluate how good teams are.  Every sports book does the same thing.  You are the one who is clueless.

[jfkbengals]

(09-22-2019, 12:44 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: That is great point only if AJ was only guy injured after the 5-3 start, we all know not the case. They lost TE #1, #2 and # 4 for example.

Didn't they also start 4-1 and end up being 6-10, so lost a lot of games with AJ playing as well.

Well that is my point.  Prior to the injuries piling up, they had an .800 win percentage.  So you see that the two seasons can't really be compared in their entirety.  Without the injuries to key players last season, 10-6 was entirely possible.

So suppose all of our injured players come back next week and we don't suffer another injury the remainder of the seaon, and we go on to close the season out at 7-9.  Your standard states changing to Taylor was a success because we won 7 games, but to me it was not as good as, apples to apples, win percentage declined.

[Bengalitis]

I'm a MORTAL and I want to WIN now. Go to the PLAYOFFS and WIN. Go to the SUPERBOWL and WIN.

Give me this 1 time while I'm alive and you can go cheap MB forever after that .

[BengalChris]

(09-22-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not as down Zac as some here accuse me.  If you go back to when we hired him you will see.  Most of my concerns are about the staff, especially our DC.  I also feel the front offfice did not do enough to help Zac turn this around.  So I am not going to judge him too harshly this season.

However I do want to address one of the most common arguments I see from his supporters.  They say that there is no way he could "fix everythying" in his first year.  I agree with this, but say that even if he can't fix everything we should at least show some improvement from last year.  

So far we have looked better than I expected in one game and much worse in another.  It is impossible to decide anything based on just two games.  But as the season progresses I want to see some consistent improvement.  

I won't be happy if everything is not fixed this year, but as long as I see some improvement I will have a positive outlook for the future.

If you are fixing things then you could expect that the team would be playing better than last year, except they really aren't. 0-2 versus 2-0, running game has been set back to the stone ages and the defense looked just as bad last week as it did under Austin. Literally, this team made the 49ers look like the Chiefs or the Saints or the Patriots.

So, what has been fixed exactly?

Granted it is too early to tell about ZT. The front office did its usual bargain bin free agent signings, except they paid premium $'s for some reason that has yet to be explained. People have made some guesses about why the team is overpaying, but only the team knows for sure why they did that.

I'm not particularly down on ZT. I am down on Mike Brown. He's been the one constant in 28 years of failure.

 

[Luvnit2]

(09-22-2019, 12:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I say the 2-0 Bills are not as good as the 2-0 Patriots, and you claim I am the one who is not using "common sense"?



That's a good one.

Every single sports fan I know looks at more than win loss record to evaluate how good teams are.  Every sports book does the same thing.  You are the one who is clueless.

Fred, your bully BS won't work on me, I see through it.

My OPINION on how I evaluate success, you have your OPINION which is severely flawed a straw man again. I will stop the name calling, but you keep up on those personal attacks.

I value all opinions, you value your own.

[TheBengalsMind]

(09-22-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not as down Zac as some here accuse me.  If you go back to when we hired him you will see.  Most of my concerns are about the staff, especially our DC.  I also feel the front offfice did not do enough to help Zac turn this around.  So I am not going to judge him too harshly this season.

However I do want to address one of the most common arguments I see from his supporters.  They say that there is no way he could "fix everythying" in his first year.  I agree with this, but say that even if he can't fix everything we should at least show some improvement from last year.  

So far we have looked better than I expected in one game and much worse in another.  It is impossible to decide anything based on just two games.  But as the season progresses I want to see some consistent improvement.  

I won't be happy if everything is not fixed this year, but as long as I see some improvement I will have a positive outlook for the future.

I agree that seeing improvement is key, but people have to give it time and stop taking things personally.

Take the 1978 San Francisco 49ers for instance they finished 2-14.

The offense was 25th in passing yards and 21st in rushing yards.

The defense was 18th in passing yards and 21st in rushing yards.

Here comes Bill Walsh in 1979, generally considered to be on the mount Rushmore of NFL coaches, and through his efforts takes that team to 2-14.

The offense was 3rd in passing yards and 20th in rushing yards.

The defense was 24th in passing yards and 15th in rushing yards. A defense that gave up 21 points a game, gave up 26 points a game in 1979.

They got better in a single category, passing the ball. They regressed in all other areas.

In 1980, through Bill Walsh's efforts they went 6-10, but had one single win against a winning team.

The offense was 5th in passing yards (including 26 tds and 27 ints) and 24th in rushing yards.

The defense was 27th in passing yards and 23rd in rushing yards.

They got worse in almost every single statistic. But they started to fight in games and they gave maximum effort. They got the dreadful "moral victories" and they were "in games until the end."

Then in 1981 everything clicked and a hell of a draft. 

They had had defensive back trouble the entire time he was there and he decided to draft not one, two, three, but four defensive backs.

Ronnie Lott, Eric Wright, Carlton Williamson and Lynn Thomas. He nailed those first 3 defensive back picks.

Then having addressed the issues his defense went to 3rd in passing yards and 12th in rushing yards. They gave up a 2nd best 15.6 points a game.

They went 13-3 and everything else is history.

The point being is that it took 3 years, for one of the four greatest coaches in NFL history, to turn the team around.

How they play, how much effort they give and how much they buy into Taylor is huge.

[sonofstat]

(09-22-2019, 06:08 PM)TheBengalsMind Wrote: I agree that seeing improvement is key, but people have to give it time and stop taking things personally.

Take the 1978 San Francisco 49ers for instance they finished 2-14.

The offense was 25th in passing yards and 21st in rushing yards.

The defense was 18th in passing yards and 21st in rushing yards.

Here comes Bill Walsh in 1979, generally considered to be on the mount Rushmore of NFL coaches, and through his efforts takes that team to 2-14.

The offense was 3rd in passing yards and 20th in rushing yards.

The defense was 24th in passing yards and 15th in rushing yards. A defense that gave up 21 points a game, gave up 26 points a game in 1979.

The got better in a single category, passing the ball. They regressed in all other areas.

In 1980, through Bill Walsh's efforts they went 6-10, but had one single win against a winning team.

The offense was 5th in passing yards (including 26 tds and 27 ints) and 24th in rushing yards.

The defense was 27th in passing yards and 23rd in rushing yards.

The got worse in almost every single statistic. But they started to fight in games and they gave maximum effort. They got the dreadful "moral victories."

Then in 1981 everything clicked and a hell of a draft. 

They had had defensive back trouble the entire time he was their and he decided to draft not one, two, three, but four defensive backs.

Ronnie Lott, Eric Wright, Carlton Williamson and Lynn Thomas. He nailed those first 3 defensive back picks.

Then having addressed the issues his defense went to 3rd in passing yards and 12th in rushing yards. They gave up a 2nd best 15.6 points a game.

They went 13-3 and everything else is history.

The point being is that it took 3 years, for one of the four greatest coaches in NFL history, to turn the team around.

How they play, how much effort they give and how much they buy into Taylor is huge.

Yep , patience is certainly required and that is one thing Mike Brown will have.

Normally the main part of that 2-3 year re-building is obviously assembling the talent...we really need a couple of killer drafts.

However this coaching staff is incredibly inexperienced at HC and co-ordinator positions.   

I'll be intrigued if the season continues like this whether Taylor sticks with his handpicked staff?