Maybe QB isn't our biggest problem?

[J24]

We're dead last in rushing yards allowed per a game & second to last in rushing yards per a game.
Also Second to last in Redzone scoring on offense infact we are one of three teams to have an under 30% score rate in the Redzone.
Not saying we should not draft a QB early but we should not rule out other positions.

[*jason*]

QB isn't the problem... I'm just ready to move on from Andy for his own good. He deserves better than this. He took a team friendly deal only to have the team let his line, and weapons fall apart. He got booed at a charity softball game for Christ sakes. Part of me even hopes he goes to some team we play next year, and whips our ass.

And quite frankly; I'm tired of hearing about him.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-11-2019, 06:35 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We're dead last in rushing yards allowed per a game & second to last in rushing yards per a game.
Also Second to last in Redzone scoring on offense infact we are one of three teams to have an under 30% score rate in the Redzone.
Not saying we should not draft a QB early  but we should not rule out other positions.

I am sure that most on here will agree with you on this assessment.

I am of a mind that even if we have the top pick it should go to OLine.  Andrew Thomas or his partner Soloman Kindley are my favorites at the moment and that I hope to see us draft.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-11-2019, 07:12 PM)jason Wrote: QB isn't the problem... I'm just ready to move on from Andy for his own good. He deserves better than this. He took a team friendly deal only to have the team let his line, and weapons fall apart. He got booed at a charity softball game for Christ sakes. Part of me even hopes he goes to some team we play next year, and whips our ass.

Hell, wouldn't it be funny if he did leave, go to the Patriots, then take over when Brady retires and win 5-6 SBs with them?

[SunsetBengal]

(10-11-2019, 06:35 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We're dead last in rushing yards allowed per a game & second to last in rushing yards per a game.
Also Second to last in Redzone scoring on offense infact we are one of three teams to have an under 30% score rate in the Redzone.
Not saying we should not draft a QB early  but we should not rule out other positions.

Here's the thing.  When a team decides to do a "rebuild", generally they pick their franchise QB and build around him.  Here, we have Andy in his 9th year.  They already built a damn fine team around him once, and he was never quite able to make the magic happened on the biggest stages.

So, do you build around Andy, again??  Or, do you go total on the rebuild, and pick a new centerpiece of the team?

[J24]

(10-11-2019, 07:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's the thing.  When a team decides to do a "rebuild", generally they pick their franchise QB and build around him.  Here, we have Andy in his 9th year.  They already built a damn fine team around him once, and he was never quite able to make the magic happened on the biggest stages.

So, do you build around Andy, again??  Or, do you go total on the rebuild, and pick a new centerpiece of the team?

I would not draft a QB just to draft a QB just to appeal to the fans. Like I said in the OP no prob drafting a QB but we have other areas that clearly need more work.
Also why draft a QB first the most successful QBs in our franchise have been 2nd Rd or Later picks. Anderson, Boomer, and Dalton.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-11-2019, 08:01 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I would not draft a QB just to draft a QB just to appeal to the fans. Like I said in the OP no prob drafting a QB but we have other areas that clearly need more work.
Also why draft a QB first the most successful QBs in our franchise have been 2nd Rd or Later picks. Anderson, Boomer, and Dalton.

I agree, if I owned a team, I wouldn't make a single move just to appease a fan base.  However, if the Management decided that it's time to make a full rebuild, the customary way to go about it is to choose your franchise QB, and build the rest of the team around him.

[THE PISTONS]

No doubt...and when people say we'd be 3-2 with AJ or Jonah and Glenn...you can just look at how bad our defense is.

We've given up the most yards through 5 game sin franchise history...and A LOT have been on runs.

What people don't realize too is that IF we scored more with Green...teams would just keep their foot on the gas and score more too. It's not as easy as just saying we'd score 6 more points a game with AJ.

[impactplaya]

The thing with Andy is that he has hit the ceiling
As far as his talents go. At times he looks like Tom Brady
Then next week look like Brady Quinn.
I think Andy is a minor reason why the Bengals can't
Acquire premier free agents.
Players outside of Cincy probally believe they simply
Cannot with him.
0 playoff wins. ( not all his fault thought )

[THE PISTONS]

This all said, IF you have a shot at a franchise QB...you take them.

If not, you go OT or a position like that. Taking a LB or a DT with a Top 5 pick is a waste. You can sign LB's in free agency if you are willing to pay.

[scorp1974]

The biggest problem is the owner and front office plain and simple. Nothing will change until that changes.

[Whatever]

(10-11-2019, 08:01 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I would not draft a QB just to draft a QB just to appeal to the fans. Like I said in the OP no prob drafting a QB but we have other areas that clearly need more work.
Also why draft a QB first the most successful QBs in our franchise have been 2nd Rd or Later picks. Anderson, Boomer, and Dalton.

Thing is, it's much easier to rebuild when you have a QB on his rookie deal than when you're paying him $20+ mil a year.  If you're not giving Dalton that kind of extension, then you need to draft a QB in the first if you have a crack at a quality prospect.

The issues with waiting are there may not be a quality QB available later and the 5th year option.  The 5th year option buys you an extra year at a relatively reasonable pay rate and gives you an extra year to make a decision on an extension or to cut bait.

The reality is that Andy has real physical limitations that he's not able to work around.  Batted balls at the LoS have been an issue no matter how good his OL was due to his height.  His lack of arm strength also creates issues.  He can't push the ball through the wind in bad weather which is kind of a prerequisite for the AFCN.  He also has to be able to set up in a clean pocket.  If he has to move and doesn't have ideal mechanics, he just doesn't have the arm talent to make a lot of throws.  Not saying everything is all his fault, but he's simply not a $20+ mil a year player.  

[HarleyDog]

Great thread discussion.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-11-2019, 09:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This all said, IF you have a shot at a franchise QB...you take them.

If not, you go OT or a position like that. Taking a LB or a DT with a Top 5 pick is a waste. You can sign LB's in free agency if you are willing to pay.

The question is "What is considered a franchise QB?"

I think Dalton is a franchise QB.  I think Kyle Allen is a Franchise QB.  I think Ryan Finley could be a franchise QB.  I think Minshew could be a franchise QB.

I bet you don't think much of any of these guys.

I do know you think some QBs are franchise QBs that I wouldn't touch at all.  Mayfield, Watson, Mahomes, Jackson, and Wentz are just some of the guys I wouldn't want.

Is Kyler Murray a "franchise" QB?  I would be livid if we had drafted him. However, there would be people claiming him to be a franchise QB.

I think some coaches panic when they have a top 5 -10 pick.  So they grab a hyped up QB in the 1st round, hoping for a spark, so they can keep their jobs.  Think about it, if Taylor fails, he can always claim that he didn't get "his guy" to build around.  The Giants shocked a lot of people in taking Daniel Jones when Drew Locke was still available.  Drew Locke was thought of as a franchise QB, where Jones was considered middle of the pack.

I don't know how these guys can make that mistake with all of their experience, and even logic.  When fans like myself can easily identify the issue of the OLine and scream to have it addressed.  I would rather keep Dalton and snag Thomas or Kindley with our 1st pick, than grab any of the so-called "Franchise" QBs that are expected to be available and still have the issue with the OLine.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-11-2019, 10:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: Thing is, it's much easier to rebuild when you have a QB on his rookie deal than when you're paying him $20+ mil a year.  If you're not giving Dalton that kind of extension, then you need to draft a QB in the first if you have a crack at a quality prospect.

The issues with waiting are there may not be a quality QB available later and the 5th year option.  The 5th year option buys you an extra year at a relatively reasonable pay rate and gives you an extra year to make a decision on an extension or to cut bait.

The reality is that Andy has real physical limitations that he's not able to work around.  Batted balls at the LoS have been an issue no matter how good his OL was due to his height.  His lack of arm strength also creates issues.  He can't push the ball through the wind in bad weather which is kind of a prerequisite for the AFCN.  He also has to be able to set up in a clean pocket.  If he has to move and doesn't have ideal mechanics, he just doesn't have the arm talent to make a lot of throws.  Not saying everything is all his fault, but he's simply not a $20+ mil a year player.  

So lets say we draft a QB with our first pick.  We have him for 4 years and possibly 5 with the option.  What do you do if he struggles the 1st year, and then 2nd year and 3rd year only to succeed in year 4?  Do you assume that his struggles were because he was young and hope that by extending him he continues and that his 4th year wasn't an aberration?  What do you do if he is successful his 1st and 2nd year and then struggles his 3rd and 4th year?

You can try to cut bait but then that means we are drafting QB after QB after QB and hope that we hit on one.  Seems like a wasted pick to me if you are constantly hoping to snag a keeper.

[HarleyDog]

(10-11-2019, 07:16 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Hell, wouldn't it be funny if he did leave, go to the Patriots, then take over when Brady retires and win 5-6 SBs with them?

(10-11-2019, 10:38 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: The question is "What is considered a franchise QB?"

I think Dalton is a franchise QB.  I think Kyle Allen is a Franchise QB.  I think Ryan Finley could be a franchise QB.  I think Minshew could be a franchise QB.

I bet you don't think much of any of these guys.

I do know you think some QBs are franchise QBs that I wouldn't touch at all.  Mayfield, Watson, Mahomes, Jackson, and Wentz are just some of the guys I wouldn't want.

Is Kyler Murray a "franchise" QB?  I would be livid if we had drafted him. However, there would be people claiming him to be a franchise QB.

I think some coaches panic when they have a top 5 -10 pick.  So they grab a hyped up QB in the 1st round, hoping for a spark, so they can keep their jobs.  Think about it, if Taylor fails, he can always claim that he didn't get "his guy" to build around.  The Giants shocked a lot of people in taking Daniel Jones when Drew Locke was still available.  Drew Locke was thought of as a franchise QB, where Jones was considered middle of the pack.

I don't know how these guys can make that mistake with all of their experience, and even logic.  When fans like myself can easily identify the issue of the OLine and scream to have it addressed.  I would rather keep Dalton and snag Thomas or Kindley with our 1st pick, than grab any of the so-called "Franchise" QBs that are expected to be available and still have the issue with the OLine.

Me thinks You participate in fantasy football intensively.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-11-2019, 10:57 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Me thinks You participate in fantasy football intensively.

LOL... nope.

Just think it would be funny if Dalton were to go to the Patriots after leaving here (if he does) to back up Brady.  Brady is way past the age when most QBs retire, and if he were to do so and Dalton was on the roster and he wins the starting job over the other QBs, then his age of retirement increases to 40 plus.  Or if Brady were injured and Dalton stepped in and won a SB with the Patriots, like Nick Foles.  I would be laughing my butt off.

I do like pocket passers more than the scrambling QBs more.  So QBs like Brady, Brees, Manning and Dalton are more to my taste over the shiny ones that are exposing themselves to a grueling hit.

[Joelist]

If you take a franchise QB right now you have to plan on redshirting them. This is because putting them out there behind a line this bad is setting them up to fail. So basically the plan becomes Franchise QB + multiple OL picks + redshirt QB while the rebuilt line gels.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-11-2019, 10:38 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: The question is "What is considered a franchise QB?"

I think Dalton is a franchise QB.  I think Kyle Allen is a Franchise QB.  I think Ryan Finley could be a franchise QB.  I think Minshew could be a franchise QB.

I bet you don't think much of any of these guys.

I do know you think some QBs are franchise QBs that I wouldn't touch at all.  Mayfield, Watson, Mahomes, Jackson, and Wentz are just some of the guys I wouldn't want.

Is Kyler Murray a "franchise" QB?  I would be livid if we had drafted him. However, there would be people claiming him to be a franchise QB.

I think some coaches panic when they have a top 5 -10 pick.  So they grab a hyped up QB in the 1st round, hoping for a spark, so they can keep their jobs.  Think about it, if Taylor fails, he can always claim that he didn't get "his guy" to build around.  The Giants shocked a lot of people in taking Daniel Jones when Drew Locke was still available.  Drew Locke was thought of as a franchise QB, where Jones was considered middle of the pack.

I don't know how these guys can make that mistake with all of their experience, and even logic.  When fans like myself can easily identify the issue of the OLine and scream to have it addressed.  I would rather keep Dalton and snag Thomas or Kindley with our 1st pick, than grab any of the so-called "Franchise" QBs that are expected to be available and still have the issue with the OLine.

I'd consider a franchise QB a Top 10 QB that makes a team much better just by his presence. But, yeah projecting that is the trick.

Dalton, if you ranked QB's was somewhere in the mid-teens at best. At worst he's maybe low 20's.

Watson and Mahommes definitely are franchise. Brady. Probably Wilson and Prescott. Aaron Rodgers. Roethlisberger. Brees.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-11-2019, 11:08 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: LOL... nope.

Just think it would be funny if Dalton were to go to the Patriots after leaving here (if he does) to back up Brady.  Brady is way past the age when most QBs retire, and if he were to do so and Dalton was on the roster and he wins the starting job over the other QBs, then his age of retirement increases to 40 plus.  Or if Brady were injured and Dalton stepped in and won a SB with the Patriots, like Nick Foles.  I would be laughing my butt off.

I do like pocket passers more than the scrambling QBs more.  So QBs like Brady, Brees, Manning and Dalton are more to my taste over the shiny ones that are exposing themselves to a grueling hit.

I doubt Dalton would put up good stats in NE. Their WR's outside of Edelman aren't special. Dalton has shown that he needs top tier WR's.

Plus, Brady has insanely good pocket presence. Chances are if Dalton is there...he's sacked much more than Brady.

I saw a stat today that Dalton is the 2nd worst QB in the league when pressured.