The Concept of Giving a Coach a Few Years to Build a Team

[THE PISTONS]

In the offseason, there was a narrative that Marvin Lewis and Company were just some inept coaches and bringing in a new staff would improve us by default. Players would improve. Then, with better health we'd be a contender. Well that hasn't happened.

Now people blame lack of talent, Bengals management, coaching, etc. So I read some posts that say lets give Zac a few years to build a team before we judge him. Nobody could win with these players.

The thing is, it's pretty clear to see that we have players regressing. Guys like Bates, Jackson, Mixon, etc. Even the offensive line. It's hard to fathom Mixon leading the AFC in rushing last year and now the running game being this terrible. PFF numbers bear this out that outside of a few outliers...every player is worse than last year. Plus, through 5 games this defense had given up the most yards in franchise history.

I think the staff should be coaching for their jobs. IF players don't show improvement the rest of the season, they almost all have to be let go. The reason is, IF most of the team regresses...giving this staff 2-3 years could set the franchise back a half decade.

There is/was talent here. Guys like Bates and Jackson looked like budding Pro Bowl-caliber players. Mixon looked like a future star. On defense, we have talent on the defensive line with future HOFer in Atkins. Even at LB, a guy like Preston Brown was a solid LB in Buffalo. Heck, even Vigil looked decent last year in the games he played. A 2-LB scheme is just a terrible fit for him and Vigil.

Which brings me to my next point - adjustments and customization. So it's no secret that our defense can't stop outside runs and misdirection. Did you notice how the 49ers, Steelers, and teams with good staffs attack us that way? Then, mediocre HC's like the Cardinals did very little of this. Well, it seems to me that the Bengals gameplan on offense and defense is the same EVERY week. We don't seem to scout other teams and identify and attack weaknesses. We just try the same things over and over.

I'm not saying fire these coaches automatically IF we win 2 games...but I think we need to atleast see some evidence that they can help players improve and show some progress before we keep them for Year 2. Keeping them by default if the trend of the entire team regressing continues will have devastating consequences.

I do feel bad for Taylor. He was very naieve. You basically need a Parcells-level genius to win in Cincy...where Coaches have to scout college and NFL free agents. Evaluate the roster. Create the playbook. Structure practices. Coach, etc. It's a huge ask to have all those skills at a high level in 1 person. Maybe that 1 person is good at 2 of those things. That works on other teams. Not here.

Thoughts?

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-18-2019, 09:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In the offseason, there was a narrative that Marvin Lewis and Company were just some inept coaches and bringing in a new staff would improve us by default. Players would improve. Then, with better health we'd be a contender. Well that hasn't happened.

Now people blame lack of talent, Bengals management, coaching, etc. So I read some posts that say lets give Zac a few years to build a team before we judge him. Nobody could win with these players.

The thing is, it's pretty clear to see that we have players regressing. Guys like Bates, Jackson, Mixon, etc. Even the offensive line. It's hard to fathom Mixon leading the AFC in rushing last year and now the running game being this terrible. PFF numbers bear this out that outside of a few outliers...every player is worse than last year. Plus, through 5 games this defense had given up the most yards in franchise history.

I think the staff should be coaching for their jobs. IF players don't show improvement the rest of the season, they almost all have to be let go. The reason is, IF most of the team regresses...giving this staff 2-3 years could set the franchise back a half decade.

There is/was talent here. Guys like Bates and Jackson looked like budding Pro Bowl-caliber players. Mixon looked like a future star. On defense, we have talent on the defensive line with future HOFer in Atkins. Even at LB, a guy like Preston Brown was a solid LB in Buffalo. Heck, even Vigil looked decent last year in the games he played. A 2-LB scheme is just a terrible fit for him and Vigil.

Which brings me to my next point - adjustments and customization. So it's no secret that our defense can't stop outside runs and misdirection. Did you notice how the 49ers, Steelers, and teams with good staffs attack us that way? Then, mediocre HC's like the Cardinals did very little of this. Well, it seems to me that the Bengals gameplan on offense and defense is the same EVERY week. We don't seem to scout other teams and identify and attack weaknesses. We just try the same things over and over.

I'm not saying fire these coaches automatically IF we win 2 games...but I think we need to atleast see some evidence that they can help players improve and show some progress before we keep them for Year 2. Keeping them by default if the trend of the entire team regressing continues will have devastating consequences.

I do feel bad for Taylor. He was very naieve. You basically need a Parcells-level genius to win in Cincy...where Coaches have to scout college and NFL free agents. Evaluate the roster. Create the playbook. Structure practices. Coach, etc. It's a huge ask to have all those skills at a high level in 1 person. Maybe that 1 person is good at 2 of those things. That works on other teams. Not here.

Thoughts?

You're embellishing the end of last year a bit...with the exception of a couple people who would claim anyone could do better. Those people are exceptions rather than the rule. 

At the end of last year, Marv was totally stale. His voice, his approach, his everything was done and played out. The team needed something new, something different. 

Many good coaches started off bad with new teams. Maybe not this bad--i don't know, i haven't studied it. Any coach that comes in and inherits a bad team, is more than likely to produce bad results. The critical injuries (a Bengals theme for sure) have multiplied the bad start. It remains to be seen if Taylor is a good or bad NFL head coach, his previous coaching stints notwithstanding   , he should be given a chance to tweak his coaching staff and try to build the team in a way he prefers (which of course could be limited by what MB believes). 

In any event, 6 games is way too early to call someone a confirmed hit or miss. 

Also, keep in mind, it is possible that one player or one position group can make another player look worse than they looked previously.

[THE PISTONS]

I agree that 6 games is too soon...but what about a season? IF all 16 games look like the 1st 6, then what do we do?

Also, I saw the stats that some good coaches started 0-6...but did those coaches have all the responsibilities that ZT has?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-18-2019, 10:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree that 6 games is too soon...but what about a season? IF all 16 games look like the 1st 6, then what do we do?

Fire and reload.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2019, 10:23 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Fire and reload.

Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-18-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

I would trust Andy Dalton to call his own plays more than I trust Zac Taylor or Brian Callahan to do it.

[Au165]

Teams that fire head coaches after one year continually get a worse pool of coaches to hire from as they become toxic for anyone’s career who takes the job. We weren’t a top destination before, if you fire Taylor after one year 0-16 or not it’ll do significant long term damage.

[*bengalfan74*]

I highly, highly doubt ZT will be fired this season damn near no matter the results. MB just doesn't operate that way.

The one and only thing that might, might do it is getting swept by the Browns losing 30-0 both games.

[*bfine32*]

(10-18-2019, 10:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You're embellishing the end of last year a bit...with the exception of a couple people who would claim anyone could do better. Those people are exceptions rather than the rule. 

I must disagree with that or else we were on different boards. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-18-2019, 10:39 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I highly, highly doubt ZT will be fired this season damn near no matter the results. MB just doesn't operate that way.

The one and only thing that might, might do it is getting swept by the Browns losing 30-0 both games.

That’s what finally produced a pink slip for Marvin Lewis! He never lost to Cleveland twice in a season until 2018 and that was Mike Brown’s trigger. I happen to know Mike hates Cleveland’s guts for firing his father in 1963. Losing to the Browns is an unacceptable act in Mike’s lexicon — which I happen to admire.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-18-2019, 10:44 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: That’s what finally produced a pink slip for Marvin Lewis!  He never lost to Cleveland twice in a season until 2018 and that was Mike Brown’s trigger.  I happen to know Mike hates Cleveland’s guts for firing his father in 1963.  Losing to the Browns is an unacceptable act in Mike’s lexicon — which I happen to admire.

Yep

To bad the Steelers spanking our little bottoms blue every year doesn't trigger him.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-18-2019, 10:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

To bad the Steelers spanking our little bottoms blue every year doesn't trigger him.

Mike doesn’t hate the Rooney family like he hates Cleveland. Getting curb stomped by the Ravens doesn’t bother him either but it should because that’s where Art Modell ended up.

Mike can leave Zac Taylor as head coach but he needs experienced coordinators running offense and defense.

[*psychdoctor*]

I don't think Taylor is going anywhere for at least 3 years. However, it is clear Turner must go at the end of the season if not sooner. I don't know what to think of Sweet Lou. Bengals bend but do not break still is ugly football. Maybe he should go at the end of season. I would also take a long look at each position coach and conduct evaluations based on players's performance and development.

I think if Taylor misses on the next couple draft, he will seal his own fate. I do not know if any trades are going to be made but I think some vets are done with Cincinnati. Let Taylor get new blood, give him a year or two to implement schemes that match his personnel. Bring in a GM that will bring in first Day Free Agents. If the team had talent and still looked this way then it would indicate coaching.

The narrative that players have regressed is bona fide but one must ask why. Is it the coaching or is it some other variables like losing a dozen games in a row. It could be schemes which would indicate coaching by coordinators. But this O-Line has been porous for a while, the talent along the OL and backers just isn't there. Dalton is a year older and injuries appear convenient for some players. Makes me wonder.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-18-2019, 10:59 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I don't think Taylor is going anywhere for at least 3 years. However, it is clear Turner must go at the end of the season if not sooner. I don't know what to think of Sweet Lou. Bengals bend but do not break still is ugly football. Maybe he should go at the end of season. I would also take a long look at each position coach and conduct evaluations based on players's performance and development.

I think if Taylor misses on the next couple draft, he will seal his own fate. I do not know if any trades are going to be made but I think some vets are done with Cincinnati. Let Taylor get new blood, give him a year or two to implement schemes that match his personnel. Bring in a GM that will bring in first Day Free Agents. If the team had talent and still looked this way then it would indicate coaching.

The narrative that players have regressed is bona fide but one must ask why. Is it the coaching or is it some other variables like losing a dozen games in a row. It could be schemes which would indicate coaching by coordinators. But this O-Line has been porous for a while, the talent along the OL and backers just isn't there. Dalton is a year older and injuries appear convenient for some players. Makes me wonder.

I think Zac Taylor is toast. I’m serious. If the Bengals lose twelve games or more I think Mike Brown will cut him loose. As for Lou Anarumo, well, his defense has kept the Bengals in most of the games so far. I’m not sure he’s the long term solution at defensive coordinator but I don’t see too many games getting out of hand either.

[*jason*]

(10-18-2019, 11:09 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I think Zac Taylor is toast. I’m serious. If the Bengals lose twelve games or more I think Mike Brown will cut him loose. As for Lou Anarumo, well, his defense has kept the Bengals in most of the games so far. I’m not sure he’s the long term solution at defensive coordinator but I don’t see too many games getting out of hand either.

We've only played one team with a really good offense... And that game got outta hand quickly. Like before I got to my seat quickly. One dimensional teams in our division have marched up and down the field on us.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-18-2019, 11:09 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I think Zac Taylor is toast.  I’m serious.  If the Bengals lose twelve games or more I think Mike Brown will cut him loose.  As for Lou Anarumo, well, his defense has kept the Bengals in most of the games so far.  I’m not sure he’s the long term solution at defensive coordinator but I don’t see too many games getting out of hand either.

Taylor is not going anywhere. The word behind the scenes is that Mike Brown really likes him.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2019, 11:24 PM)jason Wrote: We've only played one team with a really good offense... And that game got outta hand quickly. Like before I got to my seat quickly. One dimensional teams in our division have marched up and down the field on us.

And we had given up the most total yards in franchise history through 5 games! And A LOT were on the ground. It's that bad.

I don't know how some people think our defense is decent. The defense is playing WORSE than last year...and Austin got fired.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2019, 11:41 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Taylor is not going anywhere. The word behind the scenes is that Mike Brown really likes him.  

Of course he likes him. Taylor says the right things in press conference and goes with the flow.

[THE PISTONS]

The whole talent/coaching yin/yang thing is tricky.

When coaches are bad, the drafting looks bad. And vice versa. Now coaches could be good and be dealt bad drafted players too.

I tend to think the issues here are more coaching than bad players...especially on defense. When you see guys PFF ratings drastically drop, it's coaching/scheme. And to those that say the LB's make the entire defense bad...the LB's were bad last year too, and the secondary and DLine ratings were much higher.

But, we don't have a LB on our roster capable of playing Nickle on a good team. It's crazy that the coaches don't switch our scheme to using 3 LB's and putt Pratt out there too.

They may actually be forced too now that Jackson and Kirkpatrick are out.

[ah5]

If he won't relinquish his play calling duties let him go. I hate head coaches that call plays, If you want to call plays stay an OC.

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