The Concept of Giving a Coach a Few Years to Build a Team

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 01:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I remember a lot of members saying ML was 100% the issue and a new HC will inspire this group and make them a lot better. Most predicting at least 7 or 8 wins versus the 6 in 2018.

That looks almost impossible now, but we will see.

The fact is ML took a 2 win team prior to his arrival and won 8 games. He let our best LB (Spikes ) walk because he did not want not be here. So, to date, ZT will not surpass ML year one results. Should they fire him? No, but is concerning.

Indeed. And I haven't saw the player development. The rookies look lost. Veterans look lost.

Honestly, the whole team reminds me of the defense last year with Austin.

It seems the coaches have no clue how to diagnose and attack teams weaknesses. They do seem to be able to atleast adjust some in the 4th quarter...but we've had what 2 games where we did nothing in the 1st half. Way late.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2019, 10:27 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: It still seems odd that for a fall-back plan that Brown, Blackburn, Tobin couldn't get a decent OC/DC who could be a possible interim HC if the Zac Taylor experiment doesn't work.

Either they really tried(like Del Rio)and failed or had enough confidence in ZT that it was a secondary notion.

There was a reason the Front Office did not want to bring in a vet assistant as OC/DC.  They are in Taylor's corner for at least 3 years.  They do not want Taylor to sense any pressure.  I think the Front Office knows that the talent is aging and that Taylor needs time to infuse more talent into the team.  Tobin has missed on talent lately and if any football minded person in the organization cannot see that Miller, Jerry, Brown, and Hart are at the very best slightly below NFL average, then there is a more serious problem.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 03:04 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: There was a reason the Front Office did not want to bring in a vet assistant as OC/DC.  They are in Taylor's corner for at least 3 years.  They do not want Taylor to sense any pressure.  I think the Front Office knows that the talent is aging and that Taylor needs time to infuse more talent into the team.  Tobin has missed on talent lately and if any football minded person in the organization cannot see that Miller, Jerry, Brown, and Hart are at the very best slightly below NFL average, then there is a more serious problem.  

Right. They hired for comfort over going for quality.

Don't forget that the coaching staff evaluates the current roster and also has huge duties in scouting. Our free agent crop was mediocre...and our draft has looked bad so far.

The whole infusing the team with talent is failing.

Plus, who's to say that Taylor is the guy to be a great scout? He was mediocre at his 2 chances at OC and has been mediocre here so far.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2019, 03:11 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Right. They hired for comfort over going for quality.

Don't forget that the coaching staff evaluates the current roster and also has huge duties in scouting. Our free agent crop was mediocre...and our draft has looked bad so far.

The whole infusing the team with talent is failing.

Plus, who's to say that Taylor is the guy to be a great scout? He was mediocre at his 2 chances at OC and has been mediocre here so far.

I think for a 4th round pick that Finley is a keeper as a back up QB.  Williams is an unknown but he was BAP so it is hard to miss on that pick.  Rodney Anderson was worth the gamble and if not injured would fit into the Gio role and Mixon role combo into one back.  They do not use Sample enough in packages so I do not know what is there.  Jordan may need a better OL assistant coach to develop so he looks like a miss thus far, but I would hope to give him more time to develop.  Wren is just okay. I expected more from him.  T. Williams has been injured but looked like Walton 2.0 during the preseason.  

The coaches did not have a lot of time to prepare.  Not a lot of time to scout.  Lets see what they do in the next draft but as of now, I agree, the infusion of talent may take longer than a couple of years.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 03:23 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think for a 4th round pick that Finley is a keeper as a back up QB.  Williams is an unknown but he was BAP so it is hard to miss on that pick.  Rodney Anderson was worth the gamble and if not injured would fit into the Gio role and Mixon role combo into one back.  They do not use Sample enough in packages so I do not know what is there.  Jordan may need a better OL assistant coach to develop so he looks like a miss thus far, but I would hope to give him more time to develop.  Wren is just okay. I expected more from him.  T. Williams has been injured but looked like Walton 2.0 during the preseason.  

The coaches did not have a lot of time to prepare.  Not a lot of time to scout.  Lets see what they do in the next draft but as of now, I agree, the infusion of talent may take longer than a couple of years.  

Which goes back to my point of can any coach succeed in this structure?

re: Scouting - Guess when the college football season is? Yeah during the NFL Season.

One would think the coaches would be watching tape of our opponents and customizing the gameplan. I don't really see that showing in the games. The intuitive HC's who are innovative do that. Taylor doesn't seem to have that ability.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2019, 03:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which goes back to my point of can any coach succeed in this structure?

re: Scouting - Guess when the college football season is? Yeah during the NFL Season.

One would think the coaches would be watching tape of our opponents and customizing the gameplan. I don't really see that showing in the games. The intuitive HC's who are innovative do that. Taylor doesn't seem to have that ability.

He is just 6 games into the season.  I will say this, 3 weeks in a row the team made adjustments at the half and showed more.  That is better than under Lewis.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 02:45 PM)samhain Wrote: I don't think 0-6 or even 1-15 or 2-14 is neccessarily fireable.  Not unless he just completely loses control of the players.  I'm still firmly of the belief that he was set up to fail by ownership and to some extend by himself in hiring his buds to fill out the staff.  He deserves a shot at a more inspired offseason.  

However, I do believe that 0-16 is very fireable.  Like, run him out of there after the last second in week 17 expires fireable.

A lost locker room and an abortion of a season call for it.  Plus, you're likely looking at a new quarterback in that scenario.  Do you want a guy that hasn't won 2 games going into a long-term commitment like that, or do you start over?  I start over and let a new coach pick his guy.  If you don't, and Taylor continues to flounder in 2020 (and it's probable if the family has one of their typical offseasons), you're grooming a top pick quarterback under an interim coach with a lost roster and nothing team culture.  It's just another major setback in a long line.

Yeah....0fer might be. That said, if Burrows is there, you take him, and the build begins.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I wasn't a fan of the Taylor hiring in the first place, I wanted Bieniemy from the Chiefs (an actual OC, not a QB coach who was a terrible OC in college). So my opinion is admittedly a little slanted against the guy, but...

Taylor put together an absolutely horrible coaching staff. His DC is a joke, he chose the worst human being with OL Coach experience around, and he's been absolutely awful at playcalling the offense.

Could it get better? Maybe, but I am not confident. Taylor seems like a worse version of the Josh McDaniels hire by the Broncos. It's still early in the season, but I have already decided that Taylor needs to go, and there is a single point in the season where I realized this (surprisingly not the shotgun snap delayed QB run on 4th & 1, despite how terrible that was too).

The Cardinals game. The Cardinals had the worst TE D in the entire league coming into that game and all 3 Bengals TEs were healthy coming into the game, yet the Bengals didn't make a SINGLE target to a TE until THIRTY-SIX MINUTES into the game. That's not something you improve at, that's just common F'ing sense. You either have it or don't. If a team is terrible at covering TEs, you gameplan for your TEs to be a focal point. You don't ignore them for well over the entire first half of the football game.

Coaching on both sides is just horrible. From the Cardinals gameplanning, to Andrew Billings dropping back in coverage, to the shotgun delayed QB run on 4th & 1, to getting 1st and goal against the Ravens and taking Eifert OUT of the series when that's literally the only reason he should be on the team. It's just a level of common sense failing that makes me think it will never work out. It's not judgement calls that went the wrong way and could be a learning moment, it's things that 100/100 casual fans could tell you that it's a terrible idea.

Dude was a failure of a college OC, never an NFL OC, and now is a HC AND OC, and way over his head, surrounded by other coaches in way over their heads.

Burn it all to the ground and build a new coaching staff again in the offseason.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2019, 07:16 AM)Wyche Wrote: Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins.



We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win...

You can't say we were not good last year because of luck and then say we are better this year except for bad luck.

Fact is that after 5 games last year our offense ranked 17th in yards and 9th in yards per play and our defense ranked 25th in yards and 17th in yards per play allowed.  We were 7th in the league in point differential at +23.

This year our offense ranks 24tt in yards and 28th in yards per play while our defense ranks 31st in both total yards and yards per play.  We are 30th in point differential at (-62).

But those first 5 games last year our offense was generally pretty healthy.  Our O-line starters were not the greatest, but at least they were starters.  While Turner seems to be the most hated coach around here I think he is one guy who deserves a chance to see what he can do with starting caliber O-linemen.  

But our defense has just gone to total shit.  It started last year, but it has gotten worse this year.  I know we are weak in some spots, but poor LB play should not make our DBs look lost or our pass rush from our D-line disappear.

I don't know if it is horrid coaching or players not caring, but this team is bottoming out.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2019, 03:35 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: He is just 6 games into the season.  I will say this, 3 weeks in a row the team made adjustments at the half and showed more.  That is better than under Lewis.  

Last year at this point we had beaten the Colts by outscorinmg then 24-7 in the second half and the Dolphins by outscoring then 27-3 in the second half.

[BengalsRocker]

(10-19-2019, 04:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I wasn't a fan of the Taylor hiring in the first place, I wanted Bieniemy from the Chiefs (an actual OC, not a QB coach who was a terrible OC in college). So my opinion is admittedly a little slanted against the guy, but...

Taylor put together an absolutely horrible coaching staff. His DC is a joke, he chose the worst human being with OL Coach experience around, and he's been absolutely awful at playcalling the offense.

Could it get better? Maybe, but I am not confident. Taylor seems like a worse version of the Josh McDaniels hire by the Broncos. It's still early in the season, but I have already decided that Taylor needs to go, and there is a single point in the season where I realized this (surprisingly not the shotgun snap delayed QB run on 4th & 1, despite how terrible that was too).

The Cardinals game. The Cardinals had the worst TE D in the entire league coming into that game and all 3 Bengals TEs were healthy coming into the game, yet the Bengals didn't make a SINGLE target to a TE until THIRTY-SIX MINUTES into the game. That's not something you improve at, that's just common F'ing sense. You either have it or don't. If a team is terrible at covering TEs, you gameplan for your TEs to be a focal point. You don't ignore them for well over the entire first half of the football game.

Coaching on both sides is just horrible. From the Cardinals gameplanning, to Andrew Billings dropping back in coverage, to the shotgun delayed QB run on 4th & 1, to getting 1st and goal against the Ravens and taking Eifert OUT of the series when that's literally the only reason he should be on the team. It's just a level of common sense failing that makes me think it will never work out. It's not judgement calls that went the wrong way and could be a learning moment, it's things that 100/100 casual fans could tell you that it's a terrible idea.

Dude was a failure of a college OC, never an NFL OC, and now is a HC AND OC, and way over his head, surrounded by other coaches in way over their heads.

Burn it all to the ground and build a new coaching staff again in the offseason.

I'm with you on this feeling from what I've seen.

Bad game-planning outside of some obvious bad talent.

It's funny how quickly that glimmer from the Seahawks game faded so quickly.

I suppose Taylor could be saved as HC and most of the others dumped just to save the front office some face.

My issue with that is some desirable OC/DC candidates might not want to work under Taylor.

That's where Gruden or Hue might come into play just to be realistic.

I know this might seem unpleasant, but Hue might even be interested in a DC job with the Bengals.

These are unpopular but realistic people for Brown to hire.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2019, 08:46 AM)pally Wrote: Taking Glenn out of the mix, which other injuries this season have appeared convenient to you?

Glenn's 2 month concussion protocol is main one but I also wonder about Lawson.  Also, Atkins and Dunlap have looked like they quit this year.  I know Dunlap hurt his knee but he has not been himself.  Lawson is the main other person in reference.  He played all world during preseason and during the season he just limps along.  

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2019, 03:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which goes back to my point of can any coach succeed in this structure?

re: Scouting - Guess when the college football season is? Yeah during the NFL Season.

One would think the coaches would be watching tape of our opponents and customizing the gameplan. I don't really see that showing in the games. The intuitive HC's who are innovative do that. Taylor doesn't seem to have that ability.

Watching a game live is a huge waste of time.  How much do scouts even do that anymore?

A good scout could watch a whole season for a player in a single day.  

[2MinutesHate]

So, will MB allow ZT to continue to lose games into the second year (or third year) like Hue did with the Browns?

Hue lost his first 14 games with the Browns, who then went 1-15. Hue then went 0-16 his second season, before going 2-5-1 and being fired in his 3rd season.

I don't think coaches should be given multiple seasons if they have exceptionally poor records even in their first season. I do think this team has a very realistic chance of going 0-16. If that happens, I wouldn't just burn another year for the sake of finding out if they could improve given more time to ZT.

I like ZT, but the team has regressed in almost every position group it seems and that can't be solely blamed on injuries.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 03:23 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think for a 4th round pick that Finley is a keeper as a back up QB.  Williams is an unknown but he was BAP so it is hard to miss on that pick.  Rodney Anderson was worth the gamble and if not injured would fit into the Gio role and Mixon role combo into one back.  They do not use Sample enough in packages so I do not know what is there.  Jordan may need a better OL assistant coach to develop so he looks like a miss thus far, but I would hope to give him more time to develop.  Wren is just okay. I expected more from him.  T. Williams has been injured but looked like Walton 2.0 during the preseason.  

The coaches did not have a lot of time to prepare.  Not a lot of time to scout.  Lets see what they do in the next draft but as of now, I agree, the infusion of talent may take longer than a couple of years.  

Honestly...on Finley - We see guys EVERY YEAR who play decent in preseason against 2nd, 3rd, and 4th stringers. Then, during the season they do nothing.

It's hard to say what we have until he actually plays against actual NFL level players.

Look at how good a guy like Willis looked in the preseason...then he does nothing in the regular season.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't say we were not good last year because of luck and then say we are better this year except for bad luck.

Fact is that after 5 games last year our offense ranked 17th in yards and 9th in yards per play and our defense ranked 25th in yards and 17th in yards per play allowed.  We were 7th in the league in point differential at +23.

This year our offense ranks 24tt in yards and 28th in yards per play while our defense ranks 31st in both total yards and yards per play.  We are 30th in point differential at (-62).

But those first 5 games last year our offense was generally pretty healthy.  Our O-line starters were not the greatest, but at least they were starters.  While Turner seems to be the most hated coach around here I think he is one guy who deserves a chance to see what he can do with starting caliber O-linemen.  

But our defense has just gone to total shit.  It started last year, but it has gotten worse this year.  I know we are weak in some spots, but poor LB play should not make our DBs look lost or our pass rush from our D-line disappear.

I don't know if it is horrid coaching or players not caring, but this team is bottoming out.

Exactly. And the player regression over the season. The defense is getting worse. The same misdirection plays beat us week after week.

And totally agree...the LB's aren't the reason the DB's look lost or that the pass rush is failing.

The LB play was poor last year too and the D-Line and Secondary ended up rating out decent and playing decent. We gave up some 1800+ yards receiving to guys our LB's were covering last year. That was the issue.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 05:52 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I'm with you on this feeling from what I've seen.

Bad game-planning outside of some obvious bad talent.

It's funny how quickly that glimmer from the Seahawks game faded so quickly.

I suppose Taylor could be saved as HC and most of the others dumped just to save the front office some face.

My issue with that is some desirable OC/DC candidates might not want to work under Taylor.

That's where Gruden or Hue might come into play just to be realistic.

I know this might seem unpleasant, but Hue might even be interested in a DC job with the Bengals.

These are unpopular but realistic people for Brown to hire.

The Seahawks play close games. It's what they do. The Cardinals and 49ers won like 3 games each last year and beat the Seahawks some games and played them close in others.

Plus, it was the 1st game of the season of a new coaching regime. There was no tape on our schemes. Heck, outside of copying the Rams offense...I don't know that much was known. Now that it's on tape...teams see our weaknesses and destroy them.

The Cardinals game was interesting. We ran the ball VERY WELL on the 1st drive. Then, after that we couldn't. What happened? How did the Cardinals look so lost stopping the run on 1 drive, then totally take the run away? How come we can't do that?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 04:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah....0fer might be. That said, if Burrows is there, you take him, and the build begins.

I see Burrows mocked in the 20's. Where would you select him at? He's projected to be like the 4th QB. I don't know that he has the arm strength to be an elite QB. Seems more like a Dalton or Tannehill caliber guy.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Watching a game live is a huge waste of time.  How much do scouts even do that anymore?

A good scout could watch a whole season for a player in a single day.  

Yeah, but when you watch games on TV you don't get to meet the players. Interact with them. Get to know their personality. Talk to the coaches and trainers.

I met Brian Simmons, oh probably 7-8 years ago when he was scouting at a college for I believe the Jaguars. He came a day or two before the game and would go to their weight workouts and talk to people.

Then you can see how a guy fits into the system.

I do agree with your overall premise though that you can watch a lot of film. But, why do teams like the Patriots and Steelers have 2 to 3 times as many Player Personnel people as the Bengals? If you don't need scouts, why are they structured that way?

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2019, 08:45 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I see Burrows mocked in the 20's. Where would you select him at? He's projected to be like the 4th QB. I don't know that he has the arm strength to be an elite QB. Seems more like a Dalton or Tannehill caliber guy.

Some still have Tua and Herbert above Burrow but I think this will change by end of season.  Bengals have to take Burrow with the first pick and also build the OL with Kindley (G) and at least 1 FA Blue Chip OT.