Adam Gase In Real Trouble

[RunKijanaRun]

Relevant to us as we obviously have a year one head coach who is also failing miserably.

NYJ are 1-7. Their mgmt states "Circumstances always could change, but ownership is not inclined to make any head coaching moves."

Pretty clear he’s on the hot seat.

How much do any of you want to bet no such stories come out regarding Zac?

[leonardfan40]

They won’t and they shouldn’t. You hire a guy you give him more than one year. This team isn’t good and hasn’t been good in years. We hired Taylor to change the culture and turn it around. That doesn’t happen to a bad team in one offseason with no major FA moves and no extra high draft picks.

I haven’t agreed with all of his moves so far but you have to give the guy a chance. He’s a first time HC, with a bad roster, and a bad FO. Let’s see if we can catch lightning in a bottle with this guy, but that doesn’t happen overnight.

Additionally, few people want to come be part of this organization as is. If we start firing HC’s without giving them a legitimate chance do you honestly think any other coach worth a damn will want to step into that?

[RunKijanaRun]

FTR, I don’t think he should be fired either. I’m still in his corner. But it does demonstrate the disparity between the Bungles and the rest of the league in terms of desperation to succeed. Zac won’t be on the hot seat for at least 3 bad years.

[Sled21]

(11-10-2019, 10:13 AM)RunKijanaRun Wrote:  Zac won’t be on the hot seat for at least 3 bad years.

Nor should he be..... it takes a HC that long to bring in his players and implement his system

[BengalsRocker]

(11-10-2019, 10:07 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: They won’t and they shouldn’t. You hire a guy you give him more than one year. This team isn’t good and hasn’t been good in years. We hired Taylor to change the culture and turn it around. That doesn’t happen to a bad team in one offseason with no major FA moves and no extra high draft picks.

I haven’t agreed with all of his moves so far but you have to give the guy a chance. He’s a first time HC, with a bad roster, and a bad FO. Let’s see if we can catch lightning in a bottle with this guy, but that doesn’t happen overnight.

Additionally, few people want to come be part of this organization as is. If we start firing HC’s without giving them a legitimate chance do you honestly think any other coach worth a damn will want to step into that?

Honestly after current reports/events and what we've learned from this FO my confidence level is at an all time low.

I have absolutely no faith that Brown's family and Tobin will be successfully active in FA and draft/retain impact players.

That all being said what will help Zac?

He'd better hand over play calling to a real OC and make some better staff hires in the off season.

Otherwise we'll be watching the same exact thing.  A year older.

I'm not sure if Taylor is a good coach period, let alone HC material.

As fans the only coach we can hope for is one that can either navigate around the FO's usual procedures or has enough clout/cahones to implore they change or listen.

"New Dey" should've been the collection of Mike Brown's disciples letting the new HC re-educate their fossil asses about modern practices.

Instead I fear that Zac is just going to be a good little boy and do what they want.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 10:07 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: They won’t and they shouldn’t. You hire a guy you give him more than one year. This team isn’t good and hasn’t been good in years. We hired Taylor to change the culture and turn it around. That doesn’t happen to a bad team in one offseason with no major FA moves and no extra high draft picks.

I haven’t agreed with all of his moves so far but you have to give the guy a chance. He’s a first time HC, with a bad roster, and a bad FO. Let’s see if we can catch lightning in a bottle with this guy, but that doesn’t happen overnight.

Additionally, few people want to come be part of this organization as is. If we start firing HC’s without giving them a legitimate chance do you honestly think any other coach worth a damn will want to step into that?

We won 6 games last year with A LOT of injuries.

This year, we've won 0 games so far. While we're not the most talented team in the league...we do have more talent than a 0 win team.

Basically most of the roster has regressed too. Keep a bad coach too long...and your good players become average or worse...and it's harder to fix.

This staff needs to show the ability to develop players before I'd sign off on them staying on...or the damage they do could be irreparable.

[SunsetBengal]

Firing the HC won't do anything toward fixing the team's faulty General Management philosophy.

[leonardfan40]

(11-10-2019, 11:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We won 6 games last year with A LOT of injuries.

This year, we've won 0 games so far. While we're not the most talented team in the league...we do have more talent than a 0 win team.

Basically most of the roster has regressed too. Keep a bad coach too long...and your good players become average or worse...and it's harder to fix.

This staff needs to show the ability to develop players before I'd sign off on them staying on...or the damage they do could be irreparable.

1-7 in the last 8 last year vs 0-8 this year. They’ve also been very injured this year

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 10:34 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Nor should he be..... it takes a HC that long to bring in his players and implement his system

He has no system. He basically copied the Rams, but has no clue when to call what plays...and doesn't adjust it game by game.

Same as he failed at UC as an offensive coordinator. As did he in Miami.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-10-2019, 11:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We won 6 games last year with A LOT of injuries.

This year, we've won 0 games so far. While we're not the most talented team in the league...we do have more talent than a 0 win team.

Basically most of the roster has regressed too. Keep a bad coach too long...and your good players become average or worse...and it's harder to fix.

This staff needs to show the ability to develop players before I'd sign off on them staying on...or the damage they do could be irreparable.

My problem with the Zac hire(from the FO perspective)is if they were a "normal" team it would probably mean either win now mode or blow up rebuild mode.

This team, being run by arrogant know-it-alls, is in neither of these modes.

I'm not sure they have a plan, other than new faces at coaching positions.

It's the whole throw it up against the wall to see if it sticks approach which is maddening.

[Pat5775]

I’m willing to give Zac at least two more years to clean up this mess. But he has got to do better. The drafting of Drew Sample was an asinine mistake (though that very well may have been Duke Tobin’s stupid ass ), and his play calling is pretty atrocious. Maybe relegate play calling to the OC?

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 11:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Firing the HC won't do anything toward fixing the team's faulty General Management philosophy.

And that's the rub.

But likely they hired the wrong HC and Staff too. It's a vicious circle.

The best we can really hope for is that they string a few lucky drafts together in a row again. But, the success won't be sustained.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 11:51 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: My problem with the Zac hire(from the FO perspective)is if they were a "normal" team it would probably mean either win now mode or blow up rebuild mode.

This team, being run by arrogant know-it-alls, is in neither of these modes.

I'm not sure they have a plan, other than new faces at coaching positions.

It's the whole throw it up against the wall to see if it sticks approach which is maddening.

We were in 'win now' mode during the offseason.

I think that they thought a new HC, with a more modern scheme and approach would get the players playing at higher levels...and that the scheme would work better than our old scheme.

That obviously fell apart. Warning sign 1 was when the Del Rio hiring fell through. I wonder IF they told Del Rio that the plan was to play 2 LB's 80% of the time and that those LB's would be Vigil and Brown and he passed? Speculation. Something fell through. Then they hired, what 6th choice Lou?

This team, in response to getting beat with outside runs and misdirection...puts a 5th defensive lineman in who is a Tackle. WHO in the NFL does that? More speed is what they need. They have no clue.

Offense has similar deficiencies.

It took then 8 games to figure out that you need to put a 2nd TE in to be able to run the ball.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 11:51 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I’m willing to give Zac at least two more years to clean up this mess. But he has got to do better. The drafting of Drew Sample was an asinine mistake (though that very well may have been Duke Tobin’s stupid ass ), and his play calling is pretty atrocious. Maybe relegate play calling to the OC?

Yes - I'd say that hiring an OC that they let call plays and a new DC are minimum. Some of the position coaches may need to go too. I just can't say which ones.

On defense...EVERY position group has gotten worse...so all the coaches may need to go.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-10-2019, 11:57 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We were in 'win now' mode during the offseason.

I think that they thought a new HC, with a more modern scheme and approach would get the players playing at higher levels...and that the scheme would work better than our old scheme.

That obviously fell apart. Warning sign 1 was when the Del Rio hiring fell through. I wonder IF they told Del Rio that the plan was to play 2 LB's 80% of the time and that those LB's would be Vigil and Brown and he passed? Speculation. Something fell through. Then they hired, what 6th choice Lou?

This team, in response to getting beat with outside runs and misdirection...puts a 5th defensive lineman in who is a Tackle. WHO in the NFL does that? More speed is what they need. They have no clue.

Offense has similar deficiencies.

It took then 8 games to figure out that you need to put a 2nd TE in to be able to run the ball.

Win now mode would usher in FA signings to fill gaps regardless of draft picks.

Alas they do what they do.  Which is not a win now mode attitude.

Shun legit outside FA help and waste money on under-performing vets from last season.

There's no New Dey.  Except for new faces at coaching.  It's bullshit. 

They didn't even give ZT as much as Marvin in his first season.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-10-2019, 11:59 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes - I'd say that hiring an OC that they let call plays and a new DC are minimum. Some of the position coaches may need to go too. I just can't say which ones.

On defense...EVERY position group has gotten worse...so all the coaches may need to go.

Don't you mean every position group on the entire team?  I can't name a single position group that is better, or even as well as last year, on either side of the ball.  I guess an argument could be made for the WR group being alright, because their production is so dependent upon the QB and OL getting their part done, and the receivers aren't dropping perfectly catchable balls.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 12:14 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Win now mode would usher in FA signings to fill gaps regardless of draft picks.

Alas they do what they do.  Which is not a win now mode attitude.

Shun legit outside FA help and waste money on under-performing vets from last season.

There's no New Dey.  Except for new faces at coaching.  It's bullshit. 

They didn't even give ZT as much as Marvin in his first season.

That's just it. They signed free agents.

Preston Brown, and Bobby Hart 2 years ago. Kerry Wynn. BW Webb.

They sign guys...and likely overpay. Just not the RIGHT guys.

Brown is a slow-plodding LB. He's not a modern NFL guy. But, he's from Cincy...so they bring him here. He also had good Tackle stats. It's a scouting and evaluation failure. Then, they brought him back.

Then, they paid guys like Dennard to be injured.

It's just a mess.

Honestly, you can look at ALL of their moves and argue that not a single one was a good move in isolation. Yet we are hoping this team cleans things up for next year? Odds of that are slim.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-10-2019, 12:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Don't you mean every position group on the entire team?  I can't name a single position group that is better, or even as well as last year, on either side of the ball.  I guess an argument could be made for the WR group being alright, because their production is so dependent upon the QB and OL getting their part done, and the receivers aren't dropping perfectly catchable balls.

Indeed. I didn't evaluate offense, but looking at it...they likely did too.

So...it's on coaching. The staff is bad. They didn't prepare the team to succeed.

We can't really blame injuries when there is this regression. At some level, we can't blame the front office for this regression. There are A LOT of things we can blame them for, but this regression is on coaches.

Not surprising. We hired the most inexperienced staff we could.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-10-2019, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. I didn't evaluate offense, but looking at it...they likely did too.

So...it's on coaching. The staff is bad. They didn't prepare the team to succeed.

We can't really blame injuries when there is this regression. At some level, we can't blame the front office for this regression. There are A LOT of things we can blame them for, but this regression is on coaches.

Not surprising. We hired the most inexperienced staff we could.

I agree on source the regression.

Hell, how do we know if they are even really buying in or not to Zac's overall plans/methods?

[SunsetBengal]

(11-10-2019, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. I didn't evaluate offense, but looking at it...they likely did too.

So...it's on coaching. The staff is bad. They didn't prepare the team to succeed.

We can't really blame injuries when there is this regression. At some level, we can't blame the front office for this regression. There are A LOT of things we can blame them for, but this regression is on coaches.

Not surprising. We hired the most inexperienced staff we could.

So, General Management not withstanding, at the very minimum, the Bengals need 2 Coordinators and at least 3 position coaches replaced with better stock.

The bigger question still circles back to team management.  Are they going to allow the player personnel moves to happen, in order to allow coaches to effectively implement their plans?  Not every player fits into every coach's schemes.  If coaches are forced to use the players they are given, the scheme has to be continually changing, to accommodate the talent they have on hand.  Whereas, another philosophy goes out and selects players with specific skill sets that fit neatly into what they want to accomplish.