Chase Young or Joe Burrow ?

[Shake n Blake]

(11-26-2019, 08:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The way for the Bengals to avoid being "Elied" is to sign a couple of name brand OL in free agency, prior to the draft.  Show Burrow that it is an inviting atmosphere being prepared for his arrival, like they actually want him to succeed.

True. Obviously free agency is before the draft. Show the guy you're serious about addressing the line.

I'm sure he'll be well aware of what happened in 2019.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-26-2019, 08:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: True. Obviously free agency is before the draft. Show the guy you're serious about addressing the line.

I'm sure he'll be well aware of what happened in 2019.

Yep.  If you want a guy to come and lead your franchise for the next 10-12 or more, you need to let him know that you're serious about wanting him to have every chance to hit the ground running.

[J24]

(11-26-2019, 07:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Maybe not...and maybe he does pull an Eli. It wouldn't surprise me. I respect the Chase Young argument, but I just don't quite agree with it. I get where people are coming from though. I think trading the pick is the worst option, unless we sign a guy like Cam Newton before the draft. Even then, I still think it's a bad idea, because signing a guy like Cam would be expensive and keep us from signing free agents to improve this o-line and LB's.

We can't always look to the draft to solve every issue. It seems like a terrible idea to bring in a vet QB, then rely 100% on rookies to fix this line (which is what we've been trying for 4 years now). Take the stud QB prospect, use the money saved to invest in guys who can help now. That seems like the standard NFL model, and it's what the Rams did a few years ago.

We should use free agency but let's be realistic here were not going to sign 3 or 4 big name guys this year even if the "family" bugdes on not signing anyone. It's more likely we would sign one or two major guys.

For Example Bengals sign Jack Cronin at RT  and trade the first pick in the draft to Atlanta for the 6th overall pick, Deion Jones, Two 2nd RD picks in 2020, a first in 2021, and a 2022 2nd RD. 

If a trade like that were to happen then you are looking at getting two starters at our weakest positions, 2 more potential starters in this draft then previously, and future draft capital that could be used to trade up for a QB in case we don't like the one we got.

By the way I'm not saying that trade haul is realistic or enough for the first Overall pick just using that as an example.

[Storer50]

Very interesting article on the draft network, they talk about drafting chase, then moving back up to take Herbert.

Sent from my LG-Q710PL using Tapatalk

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The more I consider the upcoming draft the more I think drafting Chase Young makes sense. Right now the Bengals’ defense is allowing on average 26 points per game. That’s a lot. The trouble is, sometimes you have to win a close game 13 -10 and that’s only possible when a defensive line takes over the game.

[*Synric*]

(11-27-2019, 01:26 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The more I consider the upcoming draft the more I think drafting Chase Young makes sense. Right now the Bengals’ defense is allowing on average 26 points per game.  That’s a lot. The trouble is, sometimes you have to win a close game 13 -10 and that’s only possible when a defensive line takes over the game.

It would help if they weren't one of the worst scoring offenses averaging 14.3 points per game.

You control the game by moving the football and scoring points keeping your defense off the field. Then forcing other teams to be one dimensional giving the defense more opportunities to rush the passer and force bad decisions by opposing offenses.

I would love to have Chase Young he looks the part of a dominant pass rusher but the Bengals defensive line is far from the biggest issue and he wouldn't do anything to drastically change the outlook of the team.

There is alot of college football left but if Joe Burrow continues as he has through the SEC title game and the CFB playoffs he would be a no brainer #1 overall. Especially for a team in desperate need of a franchise QB.

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 01:46 AM)Synric Wrote: I would love to have Chase Young he looks the part of a dominant pass rusher but the Bengals defensive line is far from the biggest issue and he wouldn't do anything to drastically change the outlook of the team.

You sure about that? We are 27th in points allowed and 32nd in yards allowed, now the offense is basically the mirror image of that but I think people are still glossing over just how bad this defense has been for years now. While sacks aren't everything, we are 31st in the league in sacks at 16 total. I'd say the Bengals defensive line is actually one of our biggest issues but people fondly think of the names on the line over production. Atkins has 4.5 and Dunlap has 2.5, those two COMBINED would be good for 27th in the league in sacks yet make up $25 Million in cap expenditures.

The problem with bad defensive lines that can't generate pressure is that they expose your other levels of defense even worse. Fixing the line is the quickest way to mask deficiencies at every other level of the defense. Our linebackers have never been good here, and our CB's have been average since Hall and Joseph, but we had really good defenses because we had elite D lines for years. 

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-27-2019, 01:02 AM)Storer50 Wrote: Very interesting article on the draft network, they talk about drafting chase, then moving back up to take Herbert.

Sent from my LG-Q710PL using Tapatalk

I think Herbert is Mike Brown's pick because he is sold on strong armed QB.  Maybe Eason, which if the Bengals took Young, I like him or Fromm better.  Then there is the possibility that Tua slips just enough to snag.  But like I said before, I would cringe every time Tua is hit in a game.  

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 10:05 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Herbert is Mike Brown's pick because he is sold on strong armed QB.  Maybe Eason, which if the Bengals took Young, I like him or Fromm better.  Then there is the possibility that Tua slips just enough to snag.  But like I said before, I would cringe every time Tua is hit in a game.  

We don't have the fire power to come up for Herbert, he seems like a fit with Bruce Arians in Tampa. I actually prefer Fromm over anyone not named Burrow in this draft as I have watched more tape the last week. I think you could slide in to the early to mid 20's and pick him up and he would experience success early.

Now with that said, I need to watch more tape on the kid out of Wake Jamie Newman. He shows a lot of positives, but I have some questions about the scheme and competition. I want to see him in a bowl game before I make too big of proclamations, however he could be a kid who teams really fall in love with late in the draft process and ends up a 2nd rounder.

If we could land a Young/Newman combo I'd be pretty freaking happy I think.

[*Synric*]

(11-27-2019, 10:00 AM)Au165 Wrote: You sure about that? We are 27th in points allowed and 32nd in yards allowed, now the offense is basically the mirror image of that but I think people are still glossing over just how bad this defense has been for years now. While sacks aren't everything, we are 31st in the league in sacks at 16 total. I'd say the Bengals defensive line is actually one of our biggest issues but people fondly think of the names on the line over production. Atkins has 4.5 and Dunlap has 2.5, those two COMBINED would be good for 27th in the league in sacks yet make up $25 Million in cap expenditures.

The problem with bad defensive lines that can't generate pressure is that they expose your other levels of defense even worse. Fixing the line is the quickest way to mask deficiencies at every other level of the defense. Our linebackers have never been good here, and our CB's have been average since Hall and Joseph, but we had really good defenses because we had elite D lines for years. 

You control the game by sustaining drives and scoring points keeping your defense off the field and then giving them more opportunities to rush the passer and force teams to throw to catch up and make bad decisions.

2018 Carlos Dunlap is a prime example of this. Dunlap had 8 sacks and 21 QB hits on the year, but if you look at the logs 7 of his sacks and 13 QB hits where in the first 8 games when the Bengals were moving the ball and scoring points. He only had 1 sack when the offense fell off at the end of the year. Like I've said it's not a coincidence that Dunlap's best season as a pass rusher is 2015. 

Right now the Bengals offense is not creating oppurtonities for the defense. They cannot sustain drives cannot score points cannot keep the defense off the field. If they Bengals want to drastically change the outlook of the team they need to attack the offensive side of the ball. They need a QB they need offensive line. 

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-27-2019, 10:19 AM)Au165 Wrote: We don't have the fire power to come up for Herbert, he seems like a fit with Bruce Arians in Tampa. I actually prefer Fromm over anyone not named Burrow in this draft as I have watched more tape the last week. I think you could slide in to the early to mid 20's and pick him up and he would experience success early.

Now with that said, I need to watch more tape on the kid out of Wake Jamie Newman. He shows a lot of positives, but I have some questions about the scheme and competition. I want to see him in a bowl game before I make too big of proclamations, however he could be a kid who teams really fall in love with late in the draft process and ends up a 2nd rounder.

If we could land a Young/Newman combo I'd be pretty freaking happy I think.

Also watch Mond and Gordon.  I really like Mond.  I think Newman struggled against Clemson but then again, so did Mond.  Newman is a dual threat QB, somewhat of the new wave of QB these days.  What worries me about Mond and Newman is accuracy.  But some project Newman as Day 2 pick.    

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 10:22 AM)Synric Wrote: You control the game by sustaining drives and scoring points keeping your defense off the field and then giving them more opportunities to rush the passer and force teams to throw to catch up and make bad decisions.

2018 Carlos Dunlap is a prime example of this. Dunlap had 8 sacks and 21 QB hits on the year, but if you look at the logs 7 of his sacks and 13 QB hits where in the first 8 games when the Bengals were moving the ball and scoring points. He only had 1 sack when the offense fell off at the end of the year. Like I've said it's not a coincidence that Dunlap's best season as a pass rusher is 2015. 

Right now the Bengals offense is not creating oppurtonities for the defense. They cannot sustain drives cannot score points cannot keep the defense off the field. If they Bengals want to drastically change the outlook of the team they need to attack the offensive side of the ball. They need a QB they need offensive line. 

I mean this is just chicken or egg discussion really so there won't be agreement. We can both cite examples where bad QB and offensive play sunk elite defenses and where elite defenses carried bad QB play and offenses. 

I will simply keep pointing to, recent history shows teams that put rookie QB's into ready built situations have a MUCH lower bust rate on 1st round QB's than those who attempt to draft a QB savior. By the time we get a serviceable defense this rookie QB's contract will almost be up and then you will owe him 35+ million per year if it works out that will gut the roster. Maybe you get a Mahomes who can just completely overcome no defense, but even he has struggled to do that this year.

[*Synric*]

(11-27-2019, 10:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mean this is just chicken or egg discussion really so there won't be agreement. We can both cite examples where bad QB and offensive play sunk elite defenses and where elite defenses carried bad QB play and offenses. 

I will simply keep pointing to, recent history shows teams that put rookie QB's into ready built situations have a MUCH lower bust rate on 1st round QB's than those who attempt to draft a QB savior. By the time we get a serviceable defense this rookie QB's contract will almost be up and then you will owe him 35+ million per year if it works out that will gut the roster. Maybe you get a Mahomes who can just completely overcome no defense, but even he has struggled to do that this year.

Agreed either way if they go Chase Young or Joe Burrow they still have to build a team they need offensive line linebackers more depth at WR more depth at defensive end a QB lol.

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 10:28 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Also watch Mond and Gordon.  I really like Mond.  I think Newman struggled against Clemson but then again, so did Mond.  Newman is a dual threat QB, somewhat of the new wave of QB these days.  What worries me about Mond and Newman is accuracy.  But some project Newman as Day 2 pick.    

Newman is one of the most accurate QB's in this draft, especially down the field. Don't be fooled by completion percentage with Newman, the ball is where it is supposed to be the WR's aren't always though. 

Mond is a day 3 camp body kind of guy to me. He doesn't do well in a dirty pocket and I have issues with his lack of aggression at time. I have no interest in him. 

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 10:36 AM)Synric Wrote: Agreed either way if they go Chase Young or Joe Burrow they still have to build a team they need offensive line linebackers more depth at WR more depth at defensive end a QB lol.

Don't forget Corners, Dre and William Jackson both are on last years of their deals and Dennard is up after the year. None of them make you want to run out and pay them so lots of issues there.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-27-2019, 10:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mean this is just chicken or egg discussion really so there won't be agreement. We can both cite examples where bad QB and offensive play sunk elite defenses and where elite defenses carried bad QB play and offenses. 

I will simply keep pointing to, recent history shows teams that put rookie QB's into ready built situations have a MUCH lower bust rate on 1st round QB's than those who attempt to draft a QB savior. By the time we get a serviceable defense this rookie QB's contract will almost be up and then you will owe him 35+ million per year if it works out that will gut the roster. Maybe you get a Mahomes who can just completely overcome no defense, but even he has struggled to do that this year.

I agree with what you're saying but the one giant caveat in the Young/ Burrow debate or insert whoever _____________, is one Mike Brown.

I hate in many ways to keep beating this dog ! But will MB really build a top shelf defense in any kind of reasonable time frame ? Is he gonna pay an upper end FS ? Is he gonna pay for a couple really good LBers ? to go along with high dollar CB's and DE's.

You gotta have a good middle to go along with that powerful edge.

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 10:49 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree with what you're saying but the one giant caveat in the Young/ Burrow debate or insert whoever _____________, is one Mike Brown.

I hate in many ways to keep beating this dog ! But will MB really build a top shelf defense in any kind of reasonable time frame ? Is he gonna pay an upper end FS ? Is he gonna pay for a couple really good LBers ? to go along with high dollar CB's and DE's.

You gotta have a good middle to go along with that powerful edge.

If we draft them we normally will pay them. That actually highlights more so why we need to build the team before QB because the odds of him getting the QB then quickly surrounding him with FA talent is pretty much zero. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-27-2019, 10:49 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: But will MB really build a top shelf defense in any kind of reasonable time frame ? Is he gonna pay an upper end FS ? Is he gonna pay for a couple really good LBers ? to go along with high dollar CB's and DE's.

You gotta have a good middle to go along with that powerful edge.

Exactly, '74. 

When was the last time the Bengals drafted a dominant defensive player?  Vontaze Burfict was undrafted, remember?  Rey Maualuga was drafted in 2009 and while he wasn't the second coming of Ray Lewis, he was solid especially against the run.  When was Leon Hall drafted? What about Johnathan Joseph?  Maybe the last good defensive draftee was George Iloka in 2012.  I certainly liked the selections of Darqueze Dennard and William Jackson III but they turned out to be, well, let's be charitable, less than advertised.

I hope Lou Anarumo has the cojones to get to Zac Taylor and the Front Office and advocates for building a great defense.  Mike Zimmer demanded it!  It's not a coincidence that the Bengals went to the playoffs six times between 2009 and 2015 when the defense was given its just due in the draft and, yes, by signing free agents like Roy Williams, Terence Newman, Reggie Nelson, and Thomas Howard.

Iloka and Nelson are free agents and probably better than what we have now.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-27-2019, 11:12 AM)Au165 Wrote: No. These are however the kind of cheap bad free agents with organization familiarity we would sign then be upset when they aren't good.

True -- and I'm not suggesting the Bengals bring them back.  My point is our current secondary is freakin' horrible.

[Au165]

(11-27-2019, 11:11 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Exactly, '74. 

When was the last time the Bengals drafted a dominant defensive player?  Vontaze Burfict was undrafted, remember?  Rey Maualuga was drafted in 2009 and while he wasn't the second coming of Ray Lewis, he was solid especially against the run.  When was Leon Hall drafted? What about Johnathan Joseph?  Maybe the last good defensive draftee was George Iloka in 2012.  I certainly liked the selections of Darqueze Dennard and William Jackson III but they turned out to be, well, let's be charitable, less than advertised.

I hope Lou Anarumo has the cojones to get to Zac Taylor and the Front Office and advocates for building a great defense.  Mike Zimmer demanded it!  It's not a coincidence that the Bengals went to the playoffs six times between 2009 and 2015 when the defense was given its just due in the draft and, yes, by signing free agents like Roy Williams, Terence Newman, Reggie Nelson, and Thomas Howard.

Iloka and Nelson are free agents and probably better than what we have now.

Nelson was traded for not an FA. The others you name were discount bargain bin type guys. The reality is Mike Zimmer is one of the best defensive coordinators in football, that helps make average guys good.

No, these guys are bad but they have organizational familiarity which makes them the kind of FA we would sign...then ***** about when they suck.