Lapham said AJ looked 'unbelievable' in Pregame Workouts

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 11:37 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He can pass a physical. He could've passed a physical at least 2 months ago.  An ankle sprain, one you're weeks and then months removed from, isn't going preclude a pass.

The point is, he's more than healthy enough to play. And it's been that way for quite some time. He just doesn't to play here, for this team, in a contract year. The risk is way too great, with little to no reward.  Contrary to what some say, he's not driving up his market value with a few decent games. And it is more likely that by joining this team, paired with this roster, that he drives that market down. So he sits...

I really can't understand how some of you can be so gulliable to believe he's actually injured enough to not be able to pass a physical. Lingering soreness or not, sprains don't trigger a fail. Typical recovery is 4-6 weeks. 8 if you're being super cautious. We are now going to week 21. 21!!!!


Wake up!

You are just making all of this up.

First, it is very possible that there were unforeseen complications from the surgery, or even that he re-injured it in some way.  It is absurd to claim these things never ever happen.

Second, yes he is driving his price up by playing a few games.  What is the highest free agent contract ever given to a player who has missed 25 straight games.  NFL teams are just much smarter than y9u.  They understand that it is very possible that there were complications from the surgery or some sort of ne injury.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-13-2019, 01:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are just making all of this up.

First, it is very possible that there were unforeseen complications from the surgery, or even that he re-injured it in some way.  It is absurd to claim these things never ever happen.

Second, yes he is driving his price up by playing a few games.  What is the highest free agent contract ever given to a player who has missed 25 straight games.  NFL teams are just much smarter than y9u.  They understand that it is very possible that there were complications from the surgery or some sort of ne injury.

You know, I'm about done wasting my time trying to explain or validate a stance that should be clear as day to anyone with even an ounce of common sense. 

You go ahead and believe whatever you like. He's been hurt this entire time, and this has nothing to do with his contract status, or the state of this current team. It's nothing more than a 5 month ankle sprain recovery. And he will play because he'll get nothing in free agency if he doesn't. Sure. 

You're right. Teams are smart. Smart enough to see what's really going on here. Smart enough to simply ask him, then work him out, and then have the medical staff give them the appropriate info they need. And they'll be smart enough after workimg him out, and putting him through the paces, to then determine his worth and potential moving forward.

Believe what you want. You can direct your debate elsewhere.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-09-2019, 03:59 PM)Sled21 Wrote: At this point he will probably just sit out the rest of the season and come back next year fully healed instead of risking aggravating it now. Probably the smart move, and I wouldn't be surprised if the club didn't agree..

I agree, might even be an agreement between the two for an extension.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-13-2019, 10:36 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: When Brett Farve was traded from Atlanta to Green Bay he didn’t pass his physical because of avascular necrosis affecting one of his hips. But, the GM wanted him so Farve passed his physical.

From my understanding, the Drs didn't want to pass him because they felt he would be out of football in 4-5 years. It wasn't necessarily that he wasn't capable of playing right away.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-13-2019, 03:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: From my understanding, the Drs didn't want to pass him because they felt he would be out of football in 4-5 years. It wasn't necessarily that he wasn't capable of playing right away.

And a he flunked his physical. The GM wanted him so he got a different doctor to pass him.

The NFL doesn’t have any sort of medical standard that states what is or isn’t disqualifying. Each team makes that up for themselves. And if they want to pass a player they will.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-13-2019, 11:37 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He can pass a physical. He could've passed a physical at least 2 months ago.  An ankle sprain, one you're weeks and then months removed from, isn't going preclude a pass.

The point is, he's more than healthy enough to play. And it's been that way for quite some time. He just doesn't to play here, for this team, in a contract year. The risk is way too great, with little to no reward.  Contrary to what some say, he's not driving up his market value with a few decent games. And it is more likely that by joining this team, paired with this roster, that he drives that market down. So he sits...

I really can't understand how some of you can be so gulliable to believe he's actually injured enough to not be able to pass a physical. Lingering soreness or not, sprains don't trigger a fail. Typical recovery is 4-6 weeks. 8 if you're being super cautious. We are now going to week 21. 21!!!!


Wake up!

How long was it before Eifert could play after his ankle sprain? Ten months?

I’m sure you know Green had surgery on his ankle which means it was a grade III ankle sprain meaning at least one ligament was torn completely off the bone. We don’t call ACL ruptures grade III knee sprains, but both types of injuries involve a complete tear of a ligament.

From watching his injury I suspect it was a medial sprain instead of the more common lateral sprain. That indicates a deltoid ligament repair rather than a repair of the anterior talofibular ligament. Deltoid ligament repairs are notorious for taking much longer to heal. Plus we don’t know if there was an associated fracture. If a player tries to come back too soon from a deltoid injury they run the risk of ruining the repair which would require a second surgery and more rehab without a guarantee it could correct the laxity in the ankle which could be career ending.

So while you may suspect Green is malingering there is no way you can definitively state he could pass a physical two months ago or even today.

[R3stangs]

(12-13-2019, 04:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How long was it before Eifert could play after his ankle sprain? Ten months?

I’m sure you know Green had surgery on his ankle which means it was a grade III ankle sprain meaning at least one ligament was torn completely off the bone. We don’t call ACL ruptures grade III knee sprains, but both types of injuries involve a complete tear of a ligament.

From watching his injury I suspect it was a medial sprain instead of the more common lateral sprain. That indicates a deltoid ligament repair rather than a repair of the anterior talofibular ligament. Deltoid ligament repairs are notorious for taking much longer to heal. Plus we don’t know if there was an associated fracture. If a player tries to come back too soon from a deltoid injury they run the risk of ruining the repair which would require a second surgery and more rehab without a guarantee it could correct the laxity in the ankle which could be career ending.

So while you may suspect Green is malingering there is no way you can definitively state he could pass a physical two months ago or even today.

So, if the above is true, then why in the world would he not go on IR at the time of the injury. 

This is where much of the issue comes from. None of the activity around this injury makes much sense.

[Wes Mantooth]

(12-13-2019, 04:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How long was it before Eifert could play after his ankle sprain? Ten months?

I’m sure you know Green had surgery on his ankle which means it was a grade III ankle sprain meaning at least one ligament was torn completely off the bone. We don’t call ACL ruptures grade III knee sprains, but both types of injuries involve a complete tear of a ligament.

From watching his injury I suspect it was a medial sprain instead of the more common lateral sprain. That indicates a deltoid ligament repair rather than a repair of the anterior talofibular ligament. Deltoid ligament repairs are notorious for taking much longer to heal. Plus we don’t know if there was an associated fracture. If a player tries to come back too soon from a deltoid injury they run the risk of ruining the repair which would require a second surgery and more rehab without a guarantee it could correct the laxity in the ankle which could be career ending.

So while you may suspect Green is malingering there is no way you can definitively state he could pass a physical two months ago or even today.

So do you think 1.) The Bengals straight up lied about his injury, while throwing AJ under the bus with a unrealistic timetable or 2.) They are so inept that they misdiagnosed the injury?

It has to be one or the other. They either knowingly lied, multiple times, about the severity of the injury and it's recovery time, or they completely misdiagnosed it.  Curious to see what some of you choose.

PS Which Eifert ankle injury are you referring to? He's been sidelined so many times I'm honestly not sure.  Surely, you're not referring to when he had the gruesome break, where Krumried his ankle are you? 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-13-2019, 05:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So do you think 1.) The Bengals straight up lied about his injury, while throwing AJ under the bus with a unrealistic timetable or 2.) They are so inept that they misdiagnosed the injury?

It has to be one or the other. They either knowingly lied, multiple times, about the severity of the injury and it's recovery time, or they completely misdiagnosed it.  Curious to see what some of you choose.

PS Which Eifert ankle injury are you referring to? He's been sidelined so many times I'm honestly not sure.  Surely, you're not referring to when he had the gruesome break, where Krumried his ankle are you? 

I know you are familiar with Rich Braham’s bone bruise which was really a tibial plateau fracture. Yes, the Bengals straight up lied about his injury.

The latest example is John Ross’ shoulder injury which was later reported as a sternoclavicular injury. That’s a chest wall injury, not a shoulder injury. Then Hobson reported it was broken after he returned from IR. So 1) medical jargon can be difficult to understand and report which probably explains why a chest wall injury is reported as a shoulder injury and 2) the Bengals definitely withheld the information about the fracture. And we still don’t know if it was the clavicle, manubrium, or sternum, where it was located within those bones, if it was a complete, avulsion, or comminuted fracture, and if there was a posterior or anterior dislocation of the sternoclavicular joint because all of that would affect the treatment and prognosis. An anterior SC joint dislocation is no big deal. A posterior dislocation could be life threatening. So just a little bit of information such as which way a clavicle dislocates makes a big difference in the treatment and recovery

I was referring to Eifert’s Pro Bowl ankle sprain. They originally thought it would heal nonsurgically or Eifert was given a choice between conservative or surgical treatment and he chose conservative. Conservative treatment didn’t go as hoped and they had to perform surgery. So it took much longer for an ankle sprain to heal than usually expected.

So Green could be malingering or he could still be legitimately rehabbing an injury. We don’t have enough information to definitively conclude one way or the other.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 05:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So do you think 1.) The Bengals straight up lied about his injury, while throwing AJ under the bus with a unrealistic timetable or 2.) They are so inept that they misdiagnosed the injury?

There is another option.  The surgery just did not go as planned or there were unforeseen complications.

It happened to me.  I had a simple ruptured bicep tendon, but a calcium formation developed where they attached the tendon back to the bone.  It was in a tight spot between the ulna and the radius and now I can not completely rotate (supinate) my left hand.

And look at what Andrew Luck and Tyler Eifert went through.

You claim it is "common sense" that AJ Green is 100% healthy, but you don't really have a clue what you are talking about.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-13-2019, 04:48 PM)R3stangs Wrote: So, if the above is true, then why in the world would he not go on IR at the time of the injury. 

This is where much of the issue comes from. None of the activity around this injury makes much sense.

I would say that doctors, coaches, and players try to make the best decisions they can with the information they have on hand, but none of them have a crystal ball to tell the future.

Have you ever met someone who had back surgery and told you it was the worst decision they ever made? Do you think they would have agreed to surgery if they knew it would it would be the worst decision of their life? There is an element of the unknown to surgery and recovery. Kinda similar to the fog of war.

[Catmandude123]

(12-13-2019, 11:37 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He can pass a physical. He could've passed a physical at least 2 months ago.  An ankle sprain, one you're weeks and then months removed from, isn't going preclude a pass.

The point is, he's more than healthy enough to play. And it's been that way for quite some time. He just doesn't to play here, for this team, in a contract year. The risk is way too great, with little to no reward.  Contrary to what some say, he's not driving up his market value with a few decent games. And it is more likely that by joining this team, paired with this roster, that he drives that market down. So he sits...

I really can't understand how some of you can be so gulliable to believe he's actually injured enough to not be able to pass a physical. Lingering soreness or not, sprains don't trigger a fail. Typical recovery is 4-6 weeks. 8 if you're being super cautious. We are now going to week 21. 21!!!!


Wake up!

Also seems funny that after an offseason when he didn't get resigned he gets a season ending injury on the  first day of practice.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 09:07 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Also seems funny that after an offseason when he didn't get resigned he gets a season ending injury on the  first day of practice.

Don't know what you mean by "funny" but most fans accuse players of only going 100% in years they are playing for a contract.  Especially when they are returning from an injury. 


The absolute worst thing a player could do when "playing for a contract" would be to make himself look even MORE injury prone.

[HarleyDog]

(12-13-2019, 09:07 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Also seems funny that after an offseason when he didn't get resigned he gets a season ending injury on the  first day of practice.

Very suspicious.

(12-13-2019, 09:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know what you mean by "funny" but most fans accuse players of only going 100% in years they are playing for a contract.  Especially when they are returning from an injury. 


The absolute worst thing a player could do when "playing for a contract" would be to make himself look even MORE injury prone.

Good point.

Here’s my take: when AJ was cleared to practice, Boyd hit AJ on the foot in the library with a candlestick. Did I win?

[R3stangs]

(12-13-2019, 06:43 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I would say that doctors, coaches, and players try to make the best decisions they can with the information they have on hand, but none of them have a crystal ball to tell the future.

Have you ever met someone who had back surgery and told you it was the worst decision they ever made?  Do you think they would have agreed to surgery if they knew it would it would be the worst decision of their life? There is an element of the unknown to surgery and recovery. Kinda similar to the fog of war.

If the initial injury was what you say and the surgery required it wouldn't take a crystal ball to predict 8 weeks of recovery. Thats all that would have been needed on IR. Instead they've let him eat a roster spot for the ENTIRE season. And still are.

[fredtoast]

(12-14-2019, 01:06 PM)R3stangs Wrote: If the initial injury was what you say and the surgery required it wouldn't take a crystal ball to predict 8 weeks of recovery. Thats all that would have been needed on IR. Instead they've let him eat a roster spot for the ENTIRE season. And still are.

The fact is we are all just guessing.  We don't know what happened.  It could very well have been that the standard prediction for recovery would have gotten Green back in week 4 but there were unforseen complications.  Surgery and healing are not exact science.

If we had the exact same facts except we were winning right now everyone would be convinced that Green was still unable to play, but since we are losing some people are convinced he is able to play.  The fact is no one here knows.  We are all just guessing.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-14-2019, 01:06 PM)R3stangs Wrote: If the initial injury was what you say and the surgery required it wouldn't take a crystal ball to predict 8 weeks of recovery. Thats all that would have been needed on IR. Instead they've let him eat a roster spot for the ENTIRE season. And still are.

You’re right, it wouldn’t take a crystal ball to predict an 8 week rehab at a minimum. They didn’t place him on IR. Even with an extended recovery and only 3 games left they still haven’t placed him on IR. And if I were a part of the front office and I wanted to re-sign Green during the off-season I wouldn’t allow him to play in any of those last three games to ensure a complete recovery and prevent lingering effects entering next season. But, the Bengals still haven’t placed him on IR and they still give the impression they are hoping he will play. Why?

Kinda reminds me of Carson’s elbow injury. The team never announced the extent of the injury. Never placed him on IR even though he most likely should have been. The team also used the same excuse for not placing him on IR hoping he would maybe play before the end of the season. Even though the chances for that happening were slim to none.

They did the same thing with Braham’s bone bruise which was really a fracture.

When fans essentially questioned Braham’s and Palmer’s manhood coming back from these injuries the Bengals really didn’t do anything to defend them in the court of public opinion. Matter of fact, the Bengals were responsible for spreading unrealistic expectations among the fan base. The Bengals have a pattern here. While Green has never been a diva type player.

So who are you going to believe? The team who has acted like this in the past? Or the player who has never acted like this before?

[Catmandude123]

(12-14-2019, 06:01 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re right, it wouldn’t take a crystal ball to predict an 8 week rehab at a minimum. They didn’t place him on IR. Even with an extended recovery and only 3 games left they still haven’t placed him on IR. And if I were a part of the front office and I wanted to re-sign Green during the off-season I wouldn’t allow him to play in any of those last three games to ensure a complete recovery and prevent lingering effects entering next season. But, the Bengals still haven’t placed him on IR and they still give the impression they are hoping he will play. Why?

Kinda reminds me of Carson’s elbow injury. The team never announced the extent of the injury. Never placed him on IR even though he most likely should have been. The team also used the same excuse for not placing him on IR hoping he would maybe play before the end of the season. Even though the chances for that happening were slim to none.

They did the same thing with Braham’s bone bruise which was really a fracture.

When fans essentially questioned Braham’s and Palmer’s manhood coming back from these injuries the Bengals really didn’t do anything to defend them in the court of public opinion. Matter of fact, the Bengals were responsible for spreading unrealistic expectations among the fan base. The Bengals have a pattern here. While Green has never been a diva type player.

So who are you going to believe? The team who has acted like this in the past? Or the player who has never acted like this before?

If the team though that he may not return to his former self they would balk at resigning him to a top WR contract. While a lot of posters think they can figure out the true extent of his injury and prognosis only AJ and the team really know. If the prognosis were good I would believe the team would be falling all over themselves to sign him so it seems that know more than they are telling the fans.

[*jason*]

(12-14-2019, 06:01 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re right, it wouldn’t take a crystal ball to predict an 8 week rehab at a minimum. They didn’t place him on IR. Even with an extended recovery and only 3 games left they still haven’t placed him on IR. And if I were a part of the front office and I wanted to re-sign Green during the off-season I wouldn’t allow him to play in any of those last three games to ensure a complete recovery and prevent lingering effects entering next season. But, the Bengals still haven’t placed him on IR and they still give the impression they are hoping he will play. Why?

Kinda reminds me of Carson’s elbow injury. The team never announced the extent of the injury. Never placed him on IR even though he most likely should have been. The team also used the same excuse for not placing him on IR hoping he would maybe play before the end of the season. Even though the chances for that happening were slim to none.

They did the same thing with Braham’s bone bruise which was really a fracture.

When fans essentially questioned Braham’s and Palmer’s manhood coming back from these injuries the Bengals really didn’t do anything to defend them in the court of public opinion. Matter of fact, the Bengals were responsible for spreading unrealistic expectations among the fan base. The Bengals have a pattern here. While Green has never been a diva type player.

So who are you going to believe? The team who has acted like this in the past? Or the player who has never acted like this before?

Your last paragraph is what is killing me... A lot of us have completely turned on one of the best players in team history, who by all accounts is a stand up guy. I guy who rushed back from injury last year, and was pissed when he was shut down for the year in 2016.

[Yojimbo]

AJ is seeing a foot specialist in Green Bay today. His season is over, might as well IR him.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/16/report-a-j-green-saw-foot-specialist-monday/