Palmer's thoughts on Bengals pick, playing #1 overall QB's

[Bengalholic]

I know some don't really care what Carson has to say about anything, but I always like to see what former Bengals have to say about Bengal related topics, and he shares some of his thoughts in a recent Draft Wire article.

On Bengals taking Burrow or Chase Young:

"I think between Joe Burrow and the Ohio State defensive end Chase Young, the Bengals have a decision to make and I’m not sure there’s a wrong decision between those guys. I think both of those guys are gonna have phenomenal careers. At the end of the day, the quarterback position is just so important and Cincinnati desperately needs a quarterback. I can see Joe Burrow going No. 1 overall there. With Chase Young and the year he had, he looks like an absolute game-wrecker at the NFL level. Again, the quarterback position is just so important and there’s so few great quarterbacks.

I think Burrow is gonna be a great NFL quarterback. He’s led his team up until this point, he’s been extremely tough in the pocket. He’s more athletic than people give him credit for. We’ve seen him use his legs a little bit and I think that’s an underrated trait to his game. Quarterbacks running in the SEC typically translate over well to the pro game. If you can run, take off and get 10 yards here and there against SEC defenses, there’s a good chance that you can do that at the NFL level as well. He’s that type of athlete and he has a dynamic skill-set."

On playing or sitting a #1 overall rookie QB:

"I think that’s more a function of the salary cap and rookie wage scale. When I was coming out, and Phillip Rivers did the same thing by sitting for a year, that was before the rookie wage scale. We were signing six-year contracts back then. Nowadays, these guys are forced to sign four-year contracts. The team and the players don’t have the luxury of sitting and waiting. We’re talking about missing out on 25% of their rookie contracts by sitting them for even just a year. 

When it’s all said and done, that gives them just three years to make a decision on their future and if they’re gonna reward a guy with a big, massive contract extension. I think it’s a function of the way the salary cap and the rookie wage scale is set up nowadays. Ideally, I think it’s important for a guy to sit and watch for a year. You just don’t see that anymore for the reasons I outlined above."

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Good that he kept it civil, positive even.

I agree on both his sentiments.

[*bengalfan74*]

I read a mock draft the other day and the comment on the Bengals taking Burrow #1 was "if the Bengals don't take Burrow 1OA they should be made to go to the XFL,"

And I agree with his comments about JB's athletic ability. No he's not L. Jackson, but the guys far from a statue. I think people get locked in seeing him as a drop back passer standing like an oak tree so that's what they see. But he can get a few yards if needed.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 06:03 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I read a mock draft the other day and the comment on the Bengals taking Burrow #1 was "if the Bengals don't take Burrow 1OA they should be made to go to the XFL,"

And I agree with his comments about JB's athletic ability. No he's not L. Jackson, but the guys far from a statue. I think people get locked in seeing him as a drop back passer standing like an oak tree so that's what they see. But he can get a few yards if needed.

Yep. Joe can move pretty well.

[Luvnit2]

(01-09-2020, 05:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I know some don't really care what Carson has to say about anything, but I always like to see what former Bengals have to say about Bengal related topics, and he shares some of his thoughts in a recent Draft Wire article.

On Bengals taking Burrow or Chase Young:

"I think between Joe Burrow and the Ohio State defensive end Chase Young, the Bengals have a decision to make and I’m not sure there’s a wrong decision between those guys. I think both of those guys are gonna have phenomenal careers. At the end of the day, the quarterback position is just so important and Cincinnati desperately needs a quarterback. I can see Joe Burrow going No. 1 overall there. With Chase Young and the year he had, he looks like an absolute game-wrecker at the NFL level. Again, the quarterback position is just so important and there’s so few great quarterbacks.

I think Burrow is gonna be a great NFL quarterback. He’s led his team up until this point, he’s been extremely tough in the pocket. He’s more athletic than people give him credit for. We’ve seen him use his legs a little bit and I think that’s an underrated trait to his game. Quarterbacks running in the SEC typically translate over well to the pro game. If you can run, take off and get 10 yards here and there against SEC defenses, there’s a good chance that you can do that at the NFL level as well. He’s that type of athlete and he has a dynamic skill-set."

On playing or sitting a #1 overall rookie QB:

"I think that’s more a function of the salary cap and rookie wage scale. When I was coming out, and Phillip Rivers did the same thing by sitting for a year, that was before the rookie wage scale. We were signing six-year contracts back then. Nowadays, these guys are forced to sign four-year contracts. The team and the players don’t have the luxury of sitting and waiting. We’re talking about missing out on 25% of their rookie contracts by sitting them for even just a year. 

When it’s all said and done, that gives them just three years to make a decision on their future and if they’re gonna reward a guy with a big, massive contract extension. I think it’s a function of the way the salary cap and the rookie wage scale is set up nowadays. Ideally, I think it’s important for a guy to sit and watch for a year. You just don’t see that anymore for the reasons I outlined above."

For most part a civil commentary other than the shot at Dalton as do have a record holder (better than him) under contract for 1 more year.

I see he is still butthurt AD went to playoffs in year one after he went 4-12 the year prior. AD took a team supposedly in disarray and made them a winner making him look bad.

[mas_fuerte]

(01-09-2020, 06:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: For most part a civil commentary other than the shot at Dalton as do have a record holder (better than him) under contract for 1 more year.

I see he is still butthurt AD went to playoffs in year one after he went 4-12 the year prior. AD took a team supposedly in disarray and made them a winner making him look bad.

Or maybe he sees, like the rest of us to, that Cincinnati does in fact need a QB desperately...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 06:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: For most part a civil commentary other than the shot at Dalton as do have a record holder (better than him) under contract for 1 more year.

I see he is still butthurt AD went to playoffs in year one after he went 4-12 the year prior. AD took a team supposedly in disarray and made them a winner making him look bad.

How in the world was that a shot at Dalton? All he said was we desperately need a new QB, and we do. Andy hasn’t played a good season of football in years.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2020, 05:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I know some don't really care what Carson has to say about anything, but I always like to see what former Bengals have to say about Bengal related topics, and he shares some of his thoughts in a recent Draft Wire article.

On Bengals taking Burrow or Chase Young:

"I think between Joe Burrow and the Ohio State defensive end Chase Young, the Bengals have a decision to make and I’m not sure there’s a wrong decision between those guys. I think both of those guys are gonna have phenomenal careers. At the end of the day, the quarterback position is just so important and Cincinnati desperately needs a quarterback. I can see Joe Burrow going No. 1 overall there. With Chase Young and the year he had, he looks like an absolute game-wrecker at the NFL level. Again, the quarterback position is just so important and there’s so few great quarterbacks.

I think Burrow is gonna be a great NFL quarterback. He’s led his team up until this point, he’s been extremely tough in the pocket. He’s more athletic than people give him credit for. We’ve seen him use his legs a little bit and I think that’s an underrated trait to his game. Quarterbacks running in the SEC typically translate over well to the pro game. If you can run, take off and get 10 yards here and there against SEC defenses, there’s a good chance that you can do that at the NFL level as well. He’s that type of athlete and he has a dynamic skill-set."

On playing or sitting a #1 overall rookie QB:

"I think that’s more a function of the salary cap and rookie wage scale. When I was coming out, and Phillip Rivers did the same thing by sitting for a year, that was before the rookie wage scale. We were signing six-year contracts back then. Nowadays, these guys are forced to sign four-year contracts. The team and the players don’t have the luxury of sitting and waiting. We’re talking about missing out on 25% of their rookie contracts by sitting them for even just a year. 

When it’s all said and done, that gives them just three years to make a decision on their future and if they’re gonna reward a guy with a big, massive contract extension. I think it’s a function of the way the salary cap and the rookie wage scale is set up nowadays. Ideally, I think it’s important for a guy to sit and watch for a year. You just don’t see that anymore for the reasons I outlined above."

Palmer brings up a fantastic point that I hadn't thought of until just now.
With the new CBA, it brought forced duration on rookie deals whereas that was negotiable prior to 2011.
As Palmer said, a player could be signed for 6 or 7 years, giving him more time to develop and therefore teams willing to have their player sit a year or two.
With the new deal, you need players playing as soon as possible, as you lose precious service time on cheap salary cap hits.
It's more important than ever to find guys who can be quality players immediately.
Don't tell that to Mike Brown though. He won't believe you. He is perfectly fine with giving all his players 3 years to develop.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2020, 06:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: For most part a civil commentary other than the shot at Dalton as do have a record holder (better than him) under contract for 1 more year.

I see he is still butthurt AD went to playoffs in year one after he went 4-12 the year prior. AD took a team supposedly in disarray and made them a winner making him look bad.

Don't forget that they also replaced their WR1 and WR2 along with QB.
Palmer -> Dalton
Chad -> AJ
TO -> Simpson

As for the dig toward Dalton, I think there's no way around the comment. It's an honest evaluation. Dalton was good for a handful of years but it's time to move on. Let's see if he can resurrect his career elsewhere like Palmer did.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 06:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Don't forget that they also replaced their WR1 and WR2 along with QB.
Palmer -> Dalton
Chad -> AJ
TO -> Simpson

2010 Chad didn’t beat 2011 AJ.

[BengalChris]

I'm impressed that he said so much without digging into Mike Brown and his inept personnel decisions. I don't think I could have done that. I couldn't even get through this paragraph without digging into Mike Brown.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-09-2020, 05:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: On playing or sitting a #1 overall rookie QB:

Ideally, I think it’s important for a guy to sit and watch for a year. You just don’t see that anymore for the reasons I outlined above."

I am a strong believer in sitting a QB for their first year. We have all seen it work way too many times the last 30 or so years for there not to be something behind it.

Sat most/all of at least 1st year:
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Carson Palmer
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Patrick Mahomes
Eli Manning
Alex Smith
Jay Cutler 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It really only seems to work out for a team starting a QB immediately if you are given an amazing run game AND defense (Roethlisberger, Flacco, Sanchez)... and at that point, I would argue that a veteran QB could do the same for at least a year.

Peyton Manning started his first year, but desperately could have used that first year to sit and learn considering he threw 26 TD/28 INT.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 07:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am a strong believer in sitting a QB for their first year. We have all seen it work way too many times the last 30 or so years for there not to be something behind it.

Sat most/all of at least 1st year:
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Carson Palmer
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Patrick Mahomes
Eli Manning
Alex Smith
Jay Cutler 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It really only seems to work out for a team starting a QB immediately if you are given an amazing run game AND defense (Roethlisberger, Flacco, Sanchez)... and at that point, I would argue that a veteran QB could do the same for at least a year.

Peyton Manning started his first year, but desperately could have used that first year to sit and learn considering he threw 26 TD/28 INT.

Only Mahomes is even close to being a recent example. It just doesn’t make sense anymore to lose a year off their rookie contracts.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-09-2020, 07:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Only Mahomes is even close to being a recent example. It just doesn’t make sense anymore to lose a year off their rookie contracts.

Only Mahomes is close to being a recent example, because they stopped doing it after the Rookie Wage Scale... the whole point Palmer was making.

Before that, though, there were a lot of extremely successful QBs who sat. There are currently 4 active QBs right now who are already destined to end up in the Hall of Fame. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers. All four of them sat.

Of the next tier who probably will get in based off multiple SB wins (Roethlisberger, Eli Manning) one of them are on the list, too.

Meanwhile the best QB in the NFL under the age of 30 (Mahomes) is also on that list.

That's pretty telling.

[Luvnit2]

(01-09-2020, 06:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How in the world was that a shot at Dalton? All he said was we desperately need a new QB, and we do. Andy hasn’t played a good season of football in years.

My point was the irony is Dalton is and was better than Palmer. Do, I guess he agrees we desperately needed to replace him in 2011 coming off another bad year. He was knocking himself and not smart enough to know it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 07:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Only Mahomes is close to being a recent example, because they stopped doing it after the Rookie Wage Scale... the whole point Palmer was making.

Before that, though, there were a lot of extremely successful QBs who sat. There are currently 4 active QBs right now who are already destined to end up in the Hall of Fame. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers. All four of them sat.

Of the next tier who probably will get in based off multiple SB wins (Roethlisberger, Eli Manning) one of them are on the list, too.

Meanwhile the best QB in the NFL under the age of 30 (Mahomes) is also on that list.

That's pretty telling.

Antiquated approach. It’s just not how it’s done anymore. It was basically a different era when most of those guys came into the league.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-09-2020, 07:51 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My point was the irony is Dalton is and was better than Palmer. Do, I guess he agrees we desperately needed to replace him in 2011 coming off another bad year. He was knocking himself and not smart enough to know it.

Disagree that Dalton is better, but I’m not getting into all of that for the millionth time.

Also, you seem to be the only one “butthurt” not Palmer...

[grampahol]

Just 3 years for the number one overall pick these days makes little sense unless he's injured or you already have a darn good veteran QB to ease em into the first year. Bengals might have that luxury, maybe not, but Dalton does have some talents other vet QBs simply don't have when it comes to experience. The real knock in this scenario is his $17.xM salary.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-09-2020, 06:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Don't forget that they also replaced their WR1 and WR2 along with QB.
Palmer -> Dalton
Chad -> AJ
TO -> Simpson

As for the dig toward Dalton, I think there's no way around the comment. It's an honest evaluation. Dalton was good for a handful of years but it's time to move on. Let's see if he can resurrect his career elsewhere like Palmer did.

While overall I'd say Palmer was slightly better than Dalton, I think 2011 Dalton was better than 2010 Palmer, who threw 20 picks, 5 being returned for TDs. As much as it's time to move on from Dalton, it was also time to move on from Palmer after 2010. Palmer wasn't finished and neither is Dalton. Things just stagnated and devolved in both instances.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-09-2020, 08:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Antiquated approach. It’s just not how it’s done anymore. It was basically a different era when most of those guys came into the league.

And here I think this approach is more important than ever seeing as how most QBs these days aren't starters for at least 3 years in college anymore when you're looking at first round QBs. There's guys coming into the NFL with just 1 year as a starter in college. That 1 year of sitting in the NFL could do wonders.

Joe Burrow is obviously the pick, but it does worry me that he was only the starter for 2 years, and only good for 1 of those 2 years. I think sitting a year behind a good vet would greatly enhance his chances of NFL success. Doubly so considering it'd give the Bengals an extra year to un-F their OL since we pretty much can all assume they aren't going to do it in FA this offseason.

I don't want Burrow playing behind Jonah Williams, Billy Price, Tre Hopkins, Michael Jordan, Bobby Hart.... and I don't want Burrow playing in Zac Taylor's awful offense. Hopefully in another year neither of those will be a thing to worry about.