Who had better offense as a Rookie Palmer, Dalton, Burrow

[Essex Johnson]

Thought be interesting to just look at the offense for each QB from perspective of end of season not counting draft, FA etc since you just don't know yet before season starts.. I like to revisit this once draft and FA is over and evaluate best I can with each QB official starting crew at beginning of their rookie year.

Below is the general breakdown for each team end of season

2003
RB-Dillion
WR- Johnson Warrick
TE Kelly
T Anderson and Jones
G Steinbach and Goff
C Braham

2010
RB- Benson
WR Owens Johnson
T Roland and Whitworth
G Livings and Williams
C Cook
TE Gresham

2019
RB- Mixon
WR- Green and Boyd
TE CJ Uzomah
T Hart, Glenn (Williams)
G Miller and Jordan
C Hopkins

Little doubt 2003 had the clear better players at end of season (8-8 season).. very strong Line, RB with Dillion and WR Chad solid.. TE weak and 2nd WR weak

2003 and 2019 a bit hard to judge but I probably give it to 2019 just because Mixon and Boyd are in their Prime, 2010 team is on the old side of players in Dillion, Owens and Johnson.. Green is the unknown but still healthy i would take Green 31 vs Johnson 32. Not much difference at TE though you put Tyler in the mix.. i give 2019 the edge

Outside of Whitworth neither team had much of a line. Williams was at end of his career, Livings and Roland probably take Miller and Hart... a wash at Center ..

So my ranking would be: 2003 a clear winner followed by 2019 edging out 2010.

Will revisit all three as we enter into preseason this year.

[*Synric*]

(01-19-2020, 02:33 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Thought be interesting to just look at the offense for each QB from perspective of end of season not counting draft, FA etc since you just don't know yet before season starts.. I like to revisit this once draft and FA is over and evaluate best I can with each QB official starting crew at beginning of their rookie year.

Below is the general breakdown for each team end of season

2003
RB-Dillion
WR- Johnson Warrick
TE Kelly
T  Anderson and Jones
G  Steinbach and Goff
C  Braham

2010
RB- Benson
WR  Owens Johnson
T  Roland and Whitworth
G  Livings and Williams
C  Cook
TE  Gresham

2019
RB- Mixon
WR- Green and Boyd
TE CJ Uzomah
T Hart, Glenn (Williams)
G Miller and Jordan
C  Hopkins

Little doubt 2003 had the clear better players at end of season (8-8 season).. very strong Line, RB with Dillion and WR Chad solid.. TE weak and 2nd WR weak

2003 and 2019 a bit hard to judge but I probably give it to 2019 just because Mixon and Boyd are in their Prime, 2010 team is on the old side of players in Dillion, Owens and Johnson.. Green is the unknown but still healthy i would take Green 31 vs Johnson 32. Not much difference at TE though you put Tyler in the mix.. i give 2019 the edge

Outside of Whitworth neither team had much of a line.  Williams was at end of his career, Livings and Roland probably take Miller and Hart... a wash at Center ..

So my ranking would be:  2003 a clear winner followed by 2019 edging out 2010.  

Will revisit all three as we enter into preseason this year.

2011 WR group didnt include either Owen's or Ocho. It was AJ Green Jerome Simpson Andre Caldwell and Andrew Hawkins. Andre Smith finally got healthy in 2011 and Started 14 games. 

Also I don't understand this post 2010 was not Dalton's rookie year and 2019 isn't Burrows. He hasn't even been drafted and its 2020. We have no idea what the roster will look like in 2020...

[lone bengal]

Palmer had the best set up far as offense. He had a great o-line with bookend tackles ,dynamic WR’s and a good RB in Rudi Johnson. T.J houshmandzadeh was missing at WR on the list. I’m counting 2004 as his rookie year considering he sat a year. That roster however didn’t last long due to numerous issues.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-19-2020, 02:45 PM)Synric Wrote: 2011 WR group didnt include either Owen's or Ocho. It was AJ Green Jerome Simpson Andre Caldwell and Andrew Hawkins. Andre Smith finally got healthy in 2011 and Started 14 games. 

Also I don't understand this post 2010 was not Dalton's rookie year and 2019 isn't Burrows. He hasn't even been drafted and its 2020. We have no idea what the roster will look like in 2020...

I stated in beginning first lets look at end of season to see who seemed better, then come back after changes to see what changes and where we would put them.... 

[Essex Johnson]

(01-19-2020, 03:31 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Palmer had the best set up far as offense. He had a great o-line with bookend tackles ,dynamic WR’s and a good RB in Rudi Johnson. T.J houshmandzadeh was missing at WR on the list. I’m counting 2004 as his rookie year considering he sat a year. That roster however didn’t last long due to numerous issues.

sorry i should have said his 2nd year... i based it on the year before he started as the season ended.. then come back and revisit it in preseason after draft and changes

[SunsetBengal]

Yeah, OP might want a re-do on this one. Neither of those offenses for Palmer or Dalton are close to accurate.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Rudi Johnson had taken over for Dillon before the end of 2003.

In all of my years watching football, the best pass blocking RB I've seen was Walter Payton. The next best that I've seen was Rudi Johnson. Palmer was injured in the first game that Rudi went to Detroit but limp-armed his way through the next three games before giving way to Fitzpatrick. Chris Perry was far more interested in catching balls as a RB than blocking anyone.

Palmer had a better line, another lineman in blocking TE Reggie Kelly and an A+ pass blocking RB. He also walked into CJ and TJ as Warrick never really recovered from his knee injury. PW only had a handful of snaps with Carson Palmer before calling it a day.

[Joelist]

Palmer in 2004 had Chad and TJ, Rudi running and a strong OL. Reggie Kelly was TE and was competent.

Andy in 2011 had AJ and Jerone Simpson, an OL with good LT and RG but issues elsewhere and Cedric Benson RB with TE being Gresham.

Burrow as of now....AJ and Boyd (assuming AJ is back), TE Uzomah, RB Mixon, OL good at Center and okay at RG and surprisingly LT. Questions elsewhere impossible to answer.

Obviously Carson had the best setup. Burrow has 2 WR and a running game but ??? OL. Andy had 1 WR, some run game and a spotty OL.

Really the open ended questions on the OL make this whole question meaningless. If Jonah plays well then OL changes a lot. Not to mention three different offensive schemes in play here.

[samhain]

I'd go with Carson. All of the contributors were ready to hit their stride when he got here with the exception of Braham, who was getting a bit older. That group was deep-playoff run caliber. Adding Bobbie the year after was probably the best outside add the Bengals ever made.

Andy had a solid group, but after AJ, the team needed to build the receiver room. Benson faded a bit, too. The line had really good tackles.

Burrow would be last for me. The receivers are questionable. Boyd is a gem. I'd take him over TJ, Sanu, or Jones. He's rock solid. He will not, however, have a young and healthy AJ or a Chad ready to lead the league in yards and roasting every corner he faced. We have no idea really what he has on the line. Jonah hasn't played a snap, Hart sucks, and Johnson has barely dipped his toe in the water. That ain't Whit and Dre and it sure as hell ain't Willie and Levi. Mixon is probably better than Rudi and a disgruntled Dillon.

[*bfine32*]

Burrow's offense has the best QB

[Bengalitis]

The Carson Bengals were up and coming, the Andy Bengals are down & out, which unless something magical that's never been seen before happens from now until the season starts (trades, FA signings,etc), then Carson had the better team AND momentum.

[*Go Cards*]

Carson, and it is not that close in my book.

[Luvnit2]

(01-19-2020, 06:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, OP might want a re-do on this one.  Neither of those offenses for Palmer or Dalton are close to accurate.

Did you read his post? He clearly stated he was looking at the offense the prior year they were drafted so looks 100% accurate to me. Of course he could not compare the year after yet as 2020 roster is incomplete and my guess why he used this criteria.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-19-2020, 02:33 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Thought be interesting to just look at the offense for each QB from perspective of end of season not counting draft, FA etc since you just don't know yet before season starts.. I like to revisit this once draft and FA is over and evaluate best I can with each QB official starting crew at beginning of their rookie year.

Below is the general breakdown for each team end of season

2003
RB-Dillion
WR- Johnson Warrick
TE Kelly
T  Anderson and Jones
G  Steinbach and Goff
C  Braham

2010
RB- Benson
WR  Owens Johnson
T  Roland and Whitworth
G  Livings and Williams
C  Cook
TE  Gresham

2019
RB- Mixon
WR- Green and Boyd
TE CJ Uzomah
T Hart, Glenn (Williams)
G Miller and Jordan
C  Hopkins

Little doubt 2003 had the clear better players at end of season (8-8 season).. very strong Line, RB with Dillion and WR Chad solid.. TE weak and 2nd WR weak

2003 and 2019 a bit hard to judge but I probably give it to 2019 just because Mixon and Boyd are in their Prime, 2010 team is on the old side of players in Dillion, Owens and Johnson.. Green is the unknown but still healthy i would take Green 31 vs Johnson 32. Not much difference at TE though you put Tyler in the mix.. i give 2019 the edge

Outside of Whitworth neither team had much of a line.  Williams was at end of his career, Livings and Roland probably take Miller and Hart... a wash at Center ..

So my ranking would be:  2003 a clear winner followed by 2019 edging out 2010.  

Will revisit all three as we enter into preseason this year.

Interesting thread...good idea.

I think it goes 2003 by a mile, then 2010 and lastly, 2019.

The reason I go with 2010 over 2019 isn't so much in talent disparity (except on the offensive line), but the DEFENSE in 2010 was pretty solid.  The defense of 2019 was awful.  It did improve during the year, I will give them that, but largely awful.  Why does the defense come in to this equation?  Because if Burrow had a where he could go 6/8 for 77 yard and still win by 17 in the conference championship (a la Garrapolo last night), well, you can see how the defense can add to a QBs success.  

[CJD]

I get the sentiment, but from 2010 to 2011, there was a massive turnover on offense. Same with 2003 to 2004.

But if we were grading the 2004 offense to the 2011 offense to the potential 2020 offense, it'd be a little something like this:

2004:
RB-R. Johnson 4.0 ypc, 1500 yds, 12 TD
WR- C. Johnson, TJ Housh 95 rec 1274 yds and 73 rec 978 yds respectively. 13 TD tot
TE Schobel 200 yd 4 TD
T Anderson (pro bowl) and Jones
G Steinbach and Williams
C Braham

2011:
RB-Benson 3.9 ypc, 1000 yds, 6 TD
WR- AJ Green, Jerome Simpson 65 rec 1057 yds and 50 rec 725 yds respectively. 11 TD tot
TE Gresham 596 yd 6 TD
T Whitworth and Andre Smith
G Livings and Williams
C Cook

2020:
RB: Mixon career 4.2 ypc ~1000 to 1200 yds, 5 to 8 TDs
WR- AJ Green (hopefully), Tyler Boyd Both 1000 yard receivers 5 to 7 TD per year a piece
TE Eifert 436 yds 3 TD
T J. Williams and Hart (hopefully a high draft pick as well)
G Jordan and Miller
C Hopkins

I'd give 2020 a clear edge at RB over both years, especially with the receiving threat that Mixon provides (Benson and Rudi were not really receiving threats.) Bernard is a better back up than either Bernard Scott or Kenny Watson (2020>2004>2011)

I'd also give 2020 a clear edge at WR, assuming Green comes back.  Boyd has a much more proven record than TJ or Simpson heading into their respective seasons and Green, assuming he's healthy in 2020, I like more than rookie Green and about as much as I like an aging Chad Johnson. I also like Auden Tate and John Ross more than Kelly Washington or Andre Caldwell. (2020>2004>2011)

I'd slide 2020's TE (assuming Eifert re-signs) right between 2004 and 2011. Gresham had a good year in 2011, but 2004 had nothing going at the position. Eifert and Uzomah have the potential to be much better than 2004 and I could see them surpassing Gresham in 2020, given the opportunity. (2011>2020>2004)

2020's OTs are the worst. 2004 had a truly epic pair of OTs in Willie and Levi. And Whitworth and mid-career Andre Smith was no slouch either. I don't think all hope is lost for 2020's OTs but they're very unknown at this point, assuming we draft an OT to start in 2020 in the 2nd or 3rd round. (2004>2011>2020)

For Guards, I would, again, slide them in between 2004 and 2011, but this time I'd give the top nod to 2004. Steinbach was a great pro and Bobbie Williams was solid for several years. Having Livings at guard in 2011 was painful and Bobbie Williams still being there was not as good 7 years later.
Jordan showed some growth in the latter half of the season and Miller was, generally, pretty average to solid. I wouldn't mind if we found a capable (capable is the operative term here) guard in free agency here, but if we don't I don't think we'd be ******. 
(2004>2020>2011)

And for Center, I really like Hopkins. But he's no Rich Braham. Braham is the best center the Bengals have had in my lifetime (or at least my fandom lifetime, which began in 2003). But Hopkins is comfortably better than Kyle Cook.
(2004>2020>2011)

So, overall:
2020:
2 first places
3 second places
1 last place

2011:
1 first place
1 second place
4 last place

2004:
3 first places
2 second places
1 last place


So, basically, 2004>2020>>>2011

[XenoMorph]

(01-19-2020, 02:33 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Thought be interesting to just look at the offense for each QB from perspective of end of season not counting draft, FA etc since you just don't know yet before season starts.. I like to revisit this once draft and FA is over and evaluate best I can with each QB official starting crew at beginning of their rookie year.

Below is the general breakdown for each team end of season

2003
RB-Dillion
WR- Johnson Warrick
TE Kelly
T  Anderson and Jones
G  Steinbach and Goff
C  Braham

2010
RB- Benson
WR  Owens Johnson
T  Roland and Whitworth
G  Livings and Williams
C  Cook
TE  Gresham

2019
RB- Mixon
WR- Green and Boyd
TE CJ Uzomah
T Hart, Glenn (Williams)
G Miller and Jordan
C  Hopkins

Little doubt 2003 had the clear better players at end of season (8-8 season).. very strong Line, RB with Dillion and WR Chad solid.. TE weak and 2nd WR weak

2003 and 2019 a bit hard to judge but I probably give it to 2019 just because Mixon and Boyd are in their Prime, 2010 team is on the old side of players in Dillion, Owens and Johnson.. Green is the unknown but still healthy i would take Green 31 vs Johnson 32. Not much difference at TE though you put Tyler in the mix.. i give 2019 the edge

Outside of Whitworth neither team had much of a line.  Williams was at end of his career, Livings and Roland probably take Miller and Hart... a wash at Center ..

So my ranking would be:  2003 a clear winner followed by 2019 edging out 2010.  

Will revisit all three as we enter into preseason this year.

lol TO nor Johnson were on the team daltons rookie year.. He had AJ(rookie)  and  Jerome Simpson maybe? chad was traded to NE TJ was already gone TO was a 1 and done in 2010 (we drafted dalton 2011) not 2010 that might help you

[XenoMorph]

Palmer Started with the best Overall Team imo.....

Dalton did the most with the least.

If we can get the OL Sured up for Burrow he will be in good shape. Outside the coaching involved... not sure how that shakes out

[Essex Johnson]

(01-20-2020, 07:03 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: lol TO nor Johnson were on the team daltons rookie year.. He had AJ(rookie)  and  Jerome Simpson maybe?  chad was traded to NE   TJ was already gone  TO was a 1 and done in 2010  (we drafted dalton 2011) not 2010 that might help you

As I stated in post I wanted to analyze end of year now and come back with changes in off season and reflect in preseason

[XenoMorph]

(01-20-2020, 07:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: As I stated in post I wanted to analyze end of year now and come back with changes in off season and reflect in preseason

why does it make any sense to break down the roster they didnt play with?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-20-2020, 07:14 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: why does it make any sense to break down the roster they didnt play with?

It doesn’t...