{The Ultimate ANDY DALTON Mega Thread}

[djs7685]

(10-12-2015, 08:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'll say this about djs: at times, his comments towards Dalton have often made him seem a Dalton hater, but in reality, he was as objective as any of us with maybe a more critical stance than someone like me. He has NOT, however, ever said Andy couldn't improve or that we couldn't win playoff games or anything of that nature. I would say djs would seem to go way out of his way to not give a future prediction of Dalton (maybe to avoid being wrong? ).

I have no issue agreeing that I've been very nitpicky at times with Andy. Sometimes I get a bit out of control when arguing with someone that I believe is being too much of an Andy fan instead of a Bengals fan.

However, and I'm glad others have noticed, I've nevvvvver said that Andy can't improve and we can't win with him. Ever. I was super critical of Andy even after his solid 2013, but I still never said we can't win with him in the future. The worst I've said regarding Andy was that I didn't feel the odds were high for him to have a Drew Brees type of career transformation. I still believe that the odds weren't likely, but it's seemingly happening and that's excellent for Andy and all of us as fans. Let's just hope it continues and these "told you so!" posts from some don't look silly in a couple months.

As far as predictions go, it depends what you mean. I've gone on record saying that I didn't feel the chances were high for Andy to drastically improve, but what's so bad about not wanting to say that he specifically will or won't? I don't avoid saying that kind of stuff in fear of being wrong, I just think speaking in absolutes whenever it's not a guarantee either way can be silly and it's generally not my style. I'm the type that loves to evaluate play after it happens more than anything else when it comes to sports talk. If you ever want to know how I feel about a player or coach, ask and you know that I'm not afraid to voice my opinion. I just won't make crazy predictions and claim them as facts as some seem to do.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

Who's better than him through 5 games? Rodgers? Brady? Maybe? No matter, that's good company to be with.

The great thing about it is: He's not just putting up the stats, he's playing really well mechanically, making excellent decisions, and showing a buttload of leadership on the field. In the past, he's had good stats at times while still leaving something to be desired with the rest of his game. Not this year.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-12-2015, 09:29 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Sometimes I get a bit out of control when arguing with someone that I believe is being too much of an Andy fan instead of a Bengals fan.

Wouldn't a Bengals fan want the QB to be successful?  Aren't their fortunes kinda tied to one another?  Those fans that didn't have the patience to let the guy mature were basically saying they wanted this franchise to go in another direction. That seems like a mighty silly desire at the moment.  Staying the course is why we are sitting at 5-0 with a QB that is signed to a pretty sweet deal.

[djs7685]

(10-13-2015, 08:33 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Wouldn't a Bengals fan want the QB to be successful?  Aren't their fortunes kinda tied to one another?  Those fans that didn't have the patience to let the guy mature were basically saying they wanted this franchise to go in another direction. That seems like a mighty silly desire at the moment.  Staying the course is why we are sitting at 5-0 with a QB that is signed to a pretty sweet deal.

That wasn't my point at all. I'm a fan of Andy Dalton, I have been since the minute he was drafted. That said, I'm a Bengals fan first, I want whatever I deem best for the team (which is where most people on this board have had disagreements on in the past). The people I'm talking about are the guys that are an "Andy fan" first, and the Bengals seem to come second fiddle to their over-the-top love of the QB. If you actually read my post, I referred to people who are seemingly Andy fans INSTEAD of Bengals fans. Do you know what "instead" means???

Hopefully you and the other Andy 1st, Bengals 2nd guys don't look foolish by the end of the year with all of these statements. Again though, I don't recall ever claiming to not have the patience to let the guy "mature". The entire "you have to let a guy get to his 5th year before you can REALLY evaluate him!!!!!" propaganda is just a bunch of bullshit that is created by fans of teams with middling QBs that they're hoping take it to the next level eventually. We only see examples like Drew Brees and Peyton Manning come up on here, but we never hear about the guys that are average QBs for 3-4 years and then end up flipping tires at Sams Club after that because they couldn't keep up in the NFL. If you want to puff your chest and act like it was 100% obvious and 100% guaranteed that Andy was going to turn into Brees and not the dozens and dozens of failures, then go for it and have fun in the circle jerk with the other 3 guys that love Andy more than the team.

I think Andy is playing like a great QB, I don't think there's any reason for any of us to be unhappy with what we're seeing right now. This wasn't some slam dunk transformation though, as much as you and your alt on here want to make it seem.

The first statement of your post is really, really obnoxious. It's the same bullshit strawman that the Andy-homers have always used. Show me ONE person on these boards that has said they don't want the Bengals QB to be successful. Go ahead. Show me ONE example of that. You can't and you won't, because it's a lame strawman that you dorks try to pull to seem superior. No Bengals fan wants anything less than greatness from every position, so if you want to have a real discussion, stop making shit up.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 09:03 AM)djs7685 Wrote: That wasn't my point at all. I'm a fan of Andy Dalton, I have been since the minute he was drafted. That said, I'm a Bengals fan first, I want whatever I deem best for the team (which is where most people on this board have had disagreements on in the past). The people I'm talking about are the guys that are an "Andy fan" first, and the Bengals seem to come second fiddle to their over-the-top love of the QB. If you actually read my post, I referred to people who are seemingly Andy fans INSTEAD of Bengals fans. Do you know what "instead" means???

Hopefully you and the other Andy 1st, Bengals 2nd guys don't look foolish by the end of the year with all of these statements. Again though, I don't recall ever claiming to not have the patience to let the guy "mature". The entire "you have to let a guy get to his 5th year before you can REALLY evaluate him!!!!!" propaganda is just a bunch of bullshit that is created by fans of teams with middling QBs that they're hoping take it to the next level eventually. We only see examples like Drew Brees and Peyton Manning come up on here, but we never hear about the guys that are average QBs for 3-4 years and then end up flipping tires at Sams Club after that because they couldn't keep up in the NFL. If you want to puff your chest and act like it was 100% obvious and 100% guaranteed that Andy was going to turn into Brees and not the dozens and dozens of failures, then go for it and have fun in the circle jerk with the other 3 guys that love Andy more than the team.

I think Andy is playing like a great QB, I don't think there's any reason for any of us to be unhappy with what we're seeing right now. This wasn't some slam dunk transformation though, as much as you and your alt on here want to make it seem.

The first statement of your post is really, really obnoxious. It's the same bullshit strawman that the Andy-homers have always used. Show me ONE person on these boards that has said they don't want the Bengals QB to be successful. Go ahead. Show me ONE example of that. You can't and you won't, because it's a lame strawman that you dorks try to pull to seem superior. No Bengals fan wants anything less than greatness from every position, so if you want to have a real discussion, stop making shit up.

Laughable.  I've been rooting for the Bengals since before Andy was even born and will be rooting for the team long after he is gone.  I defend Andy because I've never seen a more consistently successful Bengals QB in all the years I've watched the team.  

I've never said you have to wait to year 5.  The guy broke franchise passing records in YEAR 3!!!  Some of you brushed that off as "volume records".  Well, if a QB is throwing "volume TDs" that seems like a good thing in my book.  "Average QBs don't throw 33 TDs in their 3rd season in the league.  They don't average 10 wins a game for their careers.  And as far as his playoff failures, some of you act like he is the first Bengals QB to not play well in the playoffs.  I know how much you fancy Carson, but he never won a playoff game and only saw 2 in his 7 years as a starter.  Taking all of that into consideration, I guess I'm sorry for given the guy the benefit of the doubt.  It seems to be paying dividends now isn't it?  

And as far as the naysayers, there is ample evidence on these boards of people wanting various other QBs that haven't played worth shit or flat out proclaiming that we've already saw the best from Andy Dalton.  Thank goodness they were just flat out wrong.

Who Dey!
  

[djs7685]

(10-13-2015, 09:24 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Laughable.  I've been rooting for the Bengals since before Andy was even born and will be rooting for the team long after he is gone.  I defend Andy because I've never seen a more consistently successful Bengals QB in all the years I've watched the team.  

I've never said you have to wait to year 5.  The guy broke franchise passing records in YEAR 3!!!  Some of you brushed that off as "volume records".  Well, if a QB is throwing "volume TDs" that seems like a good thing in my book.  "Average QBs don't throw 33 TDs in their 3rd season in the league.  They don't average 10 wins a game for their careers.  And as far as his playoff failures, some of you act like he is the first Bengals QB to not play well in the playoffs.  I know how much you fancy Carson, but he never won a playoff game and only saw 2 in his 7 years as a starter.  Taking all of that into consideration, I guess I'm sorry for given the guy the benefit of the doubt.  It seems to be paying dividends now isn't it?  

And as far as the naysayers, there is ample evidence on these boards of people wanting various other QBs that haven't played worth shit or flat out proclaiming that we've already saw the best from Andy Dalton.  Thank goodness they were just flat out wrong.

Who Dey!
  

Hey, I just call it as I read it on here just like everybody else. You seem to be one of the 3-4 guys that are more invested in Andy's success than the Bengals success. I do hope I'm wrong about that, but it would be hard to prove just going by your post history.

They are volume records. Do you understand what that means? We aren't making up new words or new terminology, they are literally volume records. Why are you upset that we're calling them exactly what they are? Matthew Stafford would have shattered Bengals volume records if he played here, does that make him great? Throwing for a bazillion yards and some TDs isn't exactly the most impressive thing in the universe if you look at some past QBs that have been top 10 in those categories. There are a lot of good players consistently there, but 1 year of high volume doesn't mean you're destined for excellence. That's all that most of us have said in the past, we explained that we need to see more than just 1 year of high yards/TDs, while guys like you obsessed over cherry picked stats.

I'm not sure how much I "fancy Carson". I've simply said in the past that I wish him well and I don't hold a grudge like most people on these boards seem to. That's it. I don't think that's so bad, but you "don't care", yet you STILL bring it up This isn't about Carson Palmer, let's not derail this into that again.

As far as the naysayers that claimed we couldn't ever win with Andy or the guys that said he could never improve, I'm right with you! I'm glad they were wrong and I never agreed with their stances. However, I'm also going to be happy if you aren't eating your words by the end of this season too. We've still got a lot of football to play. Though seeing Andy play at this insane level for 5 straight games is a good indication that this isn't some fluke, you never know and anything can happen in the NFL.

I will give a who dey as well, this is a great Bengals team led by great QB play right now.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 09:33 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Hey, I just call it as I read it on here just like everybody else. You seem to be one of the 3-4 guys that are more invested in Andy's success than the Bengals success. I do hope I'm wrong about that, but it would be hard to prove just going by your post history.

They are volume records. Do you understand what that means? We aren't making up new words or new terminology, they are literally volume records. Why are you upset that we're calling them exactly what they are? Matthew Stafford would have shattered Bengals volume records if he played here, does that make him great? Throwing for a bazillion yards and some TDs isn't exactly the most impressive thing in the universe if you look at some past QBs that have been top 10 in those categories. There are a lot of good players consistently there, but 1 year of high volume doesn't mean you're destined for excellence. That's all that most of us have said in the past, we explained that we need to see more than just 1 year of high yards/TDs, while guys like you obsessed over cherry picked stats.

I'm not sure how much I "fancy Carson". I've simply said in the past that I wish him well and I don't hold a grudge like most people on these boards seem to. That's it. I don't think that's so bad, but you "don't care", yet you STILL bring it up This isn't about Carson Palmer, let's not derail this into that again.

As far as the naysayers that claimed we couldn't ever win with Andy or the guys that said he could never improve, I'm right with you! I'm glad they were wrong and I never agreed with their stances. However, I'm also going to be happy if you aren't eating your words by the end of this season too. We've still got a lot of football to play. Though seeing Andy play at this insane level for 5 straight games is a good indication that this isn't some fluke, you never know and anything can happen in the NFL.

I will give a who dey as well, this is a great Bengals team led by great QB play right now.

Andy is having the best stretch of his career.  The Bengals are 5-0 for the first time in 26 years.

See how that works?  

And if you aren't one of the guys who claimed Andy wouldn't ever improve then I'm obviously not referring to you.  

[djs7685]

(10-13-2015, 09:38 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Andy is having the best stretch of his career.  The Bengals are 5-0 for the first time in 26 years.

See how that works?  

And if you aren't one of the guys who claimed Andy wouldn't ever improve then I'm obviously not referring to you.  

If Andy wasn't putting ridiculously perfect placement on like 75% of his throws, I think we're closer to a 2-3 or probably 3-2 team than 5-0. We have a great supporting cast around him, but the defense hasn't been playing to their full potential and the WRs are greatly benefiting from top-notch QB play.

I give him tons of credit for the current success of the Bengals.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 09:57 AM)djs7685 Wrote: If Andy wasn't putting ridiculously perfect placement on like 75% of his throws, I think we're closer to a 2-3 or probably 3-2 team than 5-0. We have a great supporting cast around him, but the defense hasn't been playing to their full potential and the WRs are greatly benefiting from top-notch QB play.

I give him tons of credit for the current success of the Bengals.

Bam!  For once we agree on something!

[BengalChris]

(10-13-2015, 08:33 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Wouldn't a Bengals fan want the QB to be successful?  Aren't their fortunes kinda tied to one another?  Those fans that didn't have the patience to let the guy mature were basically saying they wanted this franchise to go in another direction. That seems like a mighty silly desire at the moment.  Staying the course is why we are sitting at 5-0 with a QB that is signed to a pretty sweet deal.

No one knew in advance that we'd be getting a New Andy Dalton this year. Some people hoped he would improve. Some people felt he couldn't play worse based solely on players coming back from injuries. Some people would cherry pick stats over small periods of time to show he has been better than Payton Manning or Tom Brady (threads which would insult the intelligence of one and all).

The Bengals fortunes are tied to Andy Dalton and after the complete meltdowns in the playoffs and last year's below average QBing overall, for many it was time to start looking elsewhere as they wanted better fortunes for Bengals. We all knew this would be a pivotal year for Dalton as his contract is written that way. Either he'd step up or we'd be seeing some McCarron down the stretch. But no one really knew he would play this well or even could play this well for stretches of more than a game or two.

I couldn't be happier with him right now. He's playing right up there with the best of them. I'm glad he's doing it.

Andy Dalton earned the reputation he received at the end of last year, just as he's earning his new reputation now.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-13-2015, 08:33 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Wouldn't a Bengals fan want the QB to be successful?  Aren't their fortunes kinda tied to one another?  Those fans that didn't have the patience to let the guy mature were basically saying they wanted this franchise to go in another direction. That seems like a mighty silly desire at the moment.  Staying the course is why we are sitting at 5-0 with a QB that is signed to a pretty sweet deal.

There were some people on the old board who were more "Andy fans" than Bengals fans.  I specifically remember a thread that was created after McCarron was drafted.  There were people arguing that he would take Dalton's job, and there were people arguing that he was complete trash...

I posted a response in which I said that I hoped McCarron would push Dalton, that it would result in either Dalton improving or McCarron taking his job.  Either way, the Bengals would end up with the best option at quarterback.  I then went on to say that, above all, I am a Bengals' fan and want championships for this team... that I truly don't care who the quarterback is that delivers them, I will root for whomever is the quarterback, but I just want trophies.  There were MULTIPLE people who responded by saying they only wanted Dalton to be the quarterback, no matter what the outcome.

I did not understand it then, and don't understand it now.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 10:05 AM)BengalChris Wrote: No one knew in advance that we'd be getting a New Andy Dalton this year. Some people hoped he would improve. Some people felt he couldn't play worse based solely on players coming back from injuries. Some people would cherry pick stats over small periods of time to show he has been better than Payton Manning or Tom Brady (threads which would insult the intelligence of one and all).

The Bengals fortunes are tied to Andy Dalton and after the complete meltdowns in the playoffs and last year's below average QBing overall, for many it was time to start looking elsewhere as they wanted better fortunes for Bengals. We all knew this would be a pivotal year for Dalton as his contract is written that way. Either he'd step up or we'd be seeing some McCarron down the stretch. But no one really knew he would play this well or even could play this well for stretches of more than a game or two.

I couldn't be happier with him right now. He's playing right up there with the best of them. I'm glad he's doing it.

Andy Dalton earned the reputation he received at the end of last year, just as he's earning his new reputation now.

"New Andy Dalton".  Meh.  He's the same guy who has just gotten better.  Other than 2014, he has gotten better every year! He probably wouldn't have regressed last year if he had healthy players and wasn't learning a new offense.  That seemed like a more reasonable explanation for the downturn, than the guy just simply got worse (especially given the fact that just a year earlier, he broke most of the franchise single season passing records) but people who had their minds made up just kept with the narrative.  

And as far as "reputation".  I guess it depends on how you look at it.  I saw Andy as the first Bengals QB ever to lead his team to 4 straight playoff games (made more impressive by the fact that it was in his first 4 seasons) vs Andy is the first Bengals QB to lose 4 straight playoff games.  

Had we failed to make the playoffs for several years, perhaps I would have bought more into the pessimism.  It's OK for young QBs to struggle a bit.  Especially young QBs that play for a franchise that is known to gobble up and spit young QBs out never to be seen or heard from again.      

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-13-2015, 10:16 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "New Andy Dalton".  Meh.  He's the same guy who has just gotten better.  Other than 2014, he has gotten better every year! He probably wouldn't have regressed last year if he had healthy players and wasn't learning a new offense.  That seemed like a more reasonable explanation for the downturn, than the guy just simply got worse (especially given the fact that just a year earlier, he broke most of the franchise single season passing records) but people who had their minds made up just kept with the narrative.  

And as far as "reputation".  I guess it depends on how you look at it.  I saw Andy as the first Bengals QB ever to lead his team to 4 straight playoff games (made more impressive by the fact that it was in his first 4 seasons) vs Andy is the first Bengals QB to lose 4 straight playoff games.  

Had we failed to make the playoffs for several years, perhaps I would have bought more into the pessimism.  It's OK for young QBs to struggle a bit.  Especially young QBs that play for a franchise that is known to gobble up and spit young QBs out never to be seen or heard from again.      

I think the "new" part of Dalton is mental.  I just saw a clip on SI where Peter King said players are telling him that Dalton is a true leader this year, that he was much more "passive" in previous years.  You can see it on his face on game days.  Remember when something used to go wrong and he would get that "aw shucks" look on his face and smile?  That is gone, I have literally not seen it a single time this year.  Changing the plays at the line, talking to the offense on the sidelines, the decision making, his demeanor during the game.  I personally think he has taken a big step this year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-13-2015, 10:21 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I think the "new" part of Dalton is mental.  I just saw a clip on SI where Peter King said players are telling him that Dalton is a true leader this year, that he was much more "passive" in previous years.  You can see it on his face on game days.  Remember when something used to go wrong and he would get that "aw shucks" look on his face and smile?  That is gone, I have literally not seen it a single time this year.  Changing the plays at the line, talking to the offense on the sidelines, the decision making, his demeanor during the game.  I personally think he has taken a big step this year.

Yep....I personally love it when he spikes the ball with authority and then stares down the crowd.....something or someone has lit a fire under his ass, and it is paying huge dividends at the moment.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 10:21 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I think the "new" part of Dalton is mental.  I just saw a clip on SI where Peter King said players are telling him that Dalton is a true leader this year, that he was much more "passive" in previous years.  You can see it on his face on game days.  Remember when something used to go wrong and he would get that "aw shucks" look on his face and smile?  That is gone, I have literally not seen it a single time this year.  Changing the plays at the line, talking to the offense on the sidelines, the decision making, his demeanor during the game.  I personally think he has taken a big step this year.

"New"?  When did it become "new" for a young QB to gain more confidence the more experience they get?  I just find the modifiers "New", "Good", "Bad", etc.  sort of patronizing.  To me the dude is simply a young QB coming into his own.  No different than the career trajectories of other QBs in the league. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-13-2015, 10:36 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "New"?  When did it become "new" for a young QB to gain more confidence the more experience they get?  I just find the modifiers "New", "Good", "Bad", etc.  sort of patronizing.  To me the dude is simply a young QB coming into his own.  No different than the career trajectories of other QBs in the league. 

Well.....he's certainly found a "new" intensity.....otherwise, I agree.  Something is a lot different in the intensity department this season.....

[djs7685]

(10-13-2015, 10:36 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "New"?  When did it become "new" for a young QB to gain more confidence the more experience they get?  I just find the modifiers "New", "Good", "Bad", etc.  sort of patronizing.  To me the dude is simply a young QB coming into his own.  No different than the career trajectories of other QBs in the league. 

Except that different QBs have had different career paths throughout the years, and it was absolutely impossible to directly say that Andy would 100% perform like he is in 2015.

That's why people say stuff like "new Andy". We know he isn't an entirely new being, he's just playing very differently in many ways this year. I don't think it's an insult but you seem to be taking it that way. His decision making, pocket awareness, and his accuracy on every throw in the book are all so much better in 2015 than in the past. He has never looked this good consistently, and it's not insulting to bring that up.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-13-2015, 10:38 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....he's certainly found a "new" intensity.....otherwise, I agree.  Something is a lot different in the intensity department this season.....

That I can agree with.  Hope to see more of it.  Loved the spike after the TD last week.  

[Brownshoe]

The biggest change in Dalton is his pocket presence. He's been able to throw the ball this well when he has a clean pocket. If you go back and look at the games in 2013 in his bad games he normally has 3+ sacks. Now he's able to create a little more time for himself, so he can throw it better down the field. Another big thing that's helping Dalton is that his receivers actually have experience now. In 2013 Green and Gresham were his only experienced receivers. It was everyone else first year pretty much. The receivers are making few mistakes now. Those two things are why he's playing so good this year.

[BengalChris]

(10-13-2015, 10:21 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I think the "new" part of Dalton is mental.  I just saw a clip on SI where Peter King said players are telling him that Dalton is a true leader this year, that he was much more "passive" in previous years.  You can see it on his face on game days.  Remember when something used to go wrong and he would get that "aw shucks" look on his face and smile?  That is gone, I have literally not seen it a single time this year.  Changing the plays at the line, talking to the offense on the sidelines, the decision making, his demeanor during the game.  I personally think he has taken a big step this year.

Exactly!