Duke Tobin on why the Bengals didn't trade veteran players

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-24-2020, 02:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, the last time we had the #1 pick and a new HC the FO spent money in FA and we will have a lot of dough to spend as 
long as we trade or cut Dalton and don't use the Tag on Green. This frees up like 35 mil right here and this is not including 
Glenn's salary that will probably be gone with Jonah coming back.

Yep, and besides, everyone forgets that MB want's to turn the team over to Katie, but he won't do it if the team is in a bad state. I don't think her skin is as thick as his. So I think there is a ton of pressure on him to get this team in good shape. I think after the CBA and drafting of JB and signing of some good FA's, it would be ripe time for him to do so, or the next year.  Think about it, he'd be giving her a Franchise QB to build on. Almost the perfect storm for him to take a seat.

[fredtoast]

(01-24-2020, 02:27 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Then there is if we cut/trade a few where productivity does not equal salary, then we can easily jump up to the $90 mil range in free money, so with that kinda money, signing 5-6 good vets isn't out of the question in holes that we need them in.

It is not that easy to sign decent free agents at a reasonable cost.  NFL teams re-sign their best players, so generally there are some issues with the ones who do become free agents.  And often their price is determined more by the number of good players available at a specific position than the actual talent of the players.

Free agents are not as big of a gamble as draft picks but they are A LOT more expensive.  So when a free agent is a bust with his new team it is much more costly.  And a lot more of them flop than people seem to realize.


Ideally teams want to develop their own players for there own coaches/schemes and only depend on free agency for one or two spots a year.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-24-2020, 03:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Yep, and besides, everyone forgets that MB want's to turn the team over to Katie, but he won't do it if the team is in a bad state. I don't think her skin is as thick as his. So I think there is a ton of pressure on him to get this team in good shape. I think after the CBA and drafting of JB and signing of some good FA's, it would be ripe time for him to do so, or the next year.  Think about it, he'd be giving her a Franchise QB to build on. Almost the perfect storm for him to take a seat.

Great point, really didn't think about that.

[Luvnit2]

I teach my people and my family to "begin with the end on mind".

This is my take for this thread using this method:

The OP has already given up on 2020 as long as Tobin is in charge.
Why? 2019 is over and were made no trades thus having a conversation about something we can't turn back the clock is an exercise in futility.

I have read the posts and see some have no idea AJ was not eligible for trade due to injury. Other than AD (at time we did not have #1 pick secured and Burrow was not on fire), who would have he traded and got great value (draft picks)?

Again, an exercise in futility.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-24-2020, 03:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not that easy to sign decent free agents at a reasonable cost.  NFL teams re-sign their best players, so generally there are some issues with the ones who do become free agents.  And often their price is determined more by the number of good players available at a specific position than the actual talent of the players.

Free agents are not as big of a gamble as draft picks but they are A LOT more expensive.  So when a free agent is a bust with his new team it is much more costly.  And a lot more of them flop than people seem to realize.


Ideally teams want to develop their own players for there own coaches/schemes and only depend on free agency for one or two spots a year.  

Yes I know, and being who we are, we will need to pay well. The money is there, don't let them fool you.

OFC teams re-sign their best, but sometimes they can't because of salaries and by prioritizing who they sign first.
Here's a perfect example:
Dallas
Dak Prescott
Byron Jones
Amari Cooper
Michael Bennett
Robert Quinn

Dallas will lose a couple of these guys.

If it was me, I'd be ready to send Cooper & Jones, and possibly Bennett contract offers as soon as the FA period starts, if they aren't retained.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-24-2020, 02:41 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: This debate really only comes down to who were the players and what were they offered?

We can only speculate.

If it was something like a 4th or 5th rounder for Atkins or Dunloop, then yeah they can stick it!

If it was a good player and the offer was decent multiple picks like a 2/5 or 3/5 it certainly should have been considered.

I highly doubt even our best player(AJ)would command a 1st pick at this point.

Say Dalton could bring you a 3/5 and you know you're going to draft a QB you'd better grab it whilst you can before the deadline.

Especially if you plan on cutting the player in the offseason anyways.

Why you son of ...   

[Catmandude123]

(01-23-2020, 08:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ok,
This guy can't win with anyone, if he traded a player or two, people would be complaining we gave them away.

To me, this team has some talented players at certain positions, but the holes are really killing them (MLB). If they can get the holes plugged adequately, then we can be competitive easily.

Same with OL, get the holes plugged adequately, and we're back in business.

Obviously AD can be traded, he is not going to be a part of our future, since we will draft JB. But others should stick around. So this team isn't so far away that we need a complete overhaul, we just need to dip into FA's this year and find a few good fillers instead of waiting for them to fall to us in the draft.

Now name me a team in the NFL that trades away it's BEST players (more than one, teams can handle losing one player) and is better the next year?

The Pats have done it for years. Let me list a few. 2006 Deon Branch to Sea Hawks. 2007 Acquired Randy Moss. 2009 traded Vrabel and Cassel to KC. 2009 traded Seymore for a first round pick. 2016 Traded Chandler Jones to Cardinals.  All these players were tops at their positions. BTW their blueprint has won them many superbowls while MB hasn't had a team win a playoff game in the last three decades.

[Catmandude123]

(01-24-2020, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You have to be able to pass a physical to be traded. AJ was not fit at the trade deadline.

As for 49ers, what did I miss them trading away great vets and getting draft picks in return? I saw them trade away some average players and trade for a QB from the Pats. Then add some guys. Staley is still there as is a lot of vets.

Being active in the FA (Sherman, Tomlinson)market and trades (Dee Ford, Garrapollo) are why they are in the PlOs. If the Bengals are ever to be a force in the league they have to be more like the successful teams. 

[fredtoast]

(01-25-2020, 11:44 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The Pats have done it for years. Let me list a few. 2006 Deon Branch to Sea Hawks. 2007 Acquired Randy Moss. 2009 traded Vrabel and Cassel to KC. 2009 traded Seymore for a first round pick. 2016 Traded Chandler Jones to Cardinals.  All these players were tops at their positions. BTW their blueprint has won them many superbowls while MB hasn't had a team win a playoff game in the last three decades.

2006 Deion Branch FORCED the Pats to trade him by refusing to play.

Pats traded ZERO players to get Randy Moss.

Matt Cassel was not "tops at his position".  He was a decent playuer, but he was a back up for the Pats.  Vrabel was 33 and on the downhill slide.

So basically the Pats have made 2 trades in the last 20 years that fit your description.  Not exactly standard procedure.

[Catmandude123]

(01-25-2020, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So basically the Pats have made 2 trades in the last 20 years that fit your description.  Not exactly standard procedure.

That's two more than the Bengals have. Bill Belichick has made a total of 121 trades as a Patriot  BTW he has six SB wins. So tell us again how trades aren't a good way to go compared to not even one PO win in three decades. Having a man crush on your own players is not a way to win championships. Going into the season year after year expecting MB and Tobin has been an abject failure and has led us to the point we are today. 

[Catmandude123]

(01-25-2020, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2006 Deion Branch FORCED the Pats to trade him by refusing to play

Kind of like AJ is doing now? The only difference is the suckers in our FO will fold up like a cheap tent.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-23-2020, 02:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: NFL teams don't plan on taking 3 or 4 years to rebuild.  It is now expected to get done in 1 or 2 years.  So unless the veteran just has one year left on his contract most re-building teams will not trade away vets who are still producing.

Still, rebuilding teams usually place a premium on young players and draft picks, while (often, not always) dealing away aging, expensive players.

[kalibengal]

(01-23-2020, 01:53 PM)Okeana Wrote: I'm starting to think Tobin is a bit slow in the head.

Said the guy who drafted Ogblewie and Fisher in the same draft ..then Price a few yrs later and oh yes that Drew Sample pick!? Who believes this guy knows how to evaluate players anymore?How does he have a job?    There has to be some sort of blackmail (Thai Massage stuff) going on.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Well, Duke, this team’s Super Bowl window is closed. Hell, the playoff window has been closed since you let the O-line decline three years ago. The team has only gotten worse with your recent draft classes and free agency additions. So while some of your veteran players are good they are also aging. By the time this team is ready to compete again those players most likely won’t be with the team. So you trade them to get something of value to help you win in the future.

I don’t think Duke is stupid so I’m sure he knows this so I don’t understand the need to blow smoke up our asses. Reason #237 this team’s front office sucks.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-23-2020, 02:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: NFL teams don't plan on taking 3 or 4 years to rebuild.  It is now expected to get done in 1 or 2 years.  So unless the veteran just has one year left on his contract most re-building teams will not trade away vets who are still producing.

The Bengals use their same approach they have always used. Why would that change expectations or results?

[Luvnit2]

(01-25-2020, 12:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Being active in the FA (Sherman, Tomlinson)market and trades (Dee Ford, Garrapollo) are why they are in the PlOs. If the Bengals are ever to be a force in the league they have to be more like the successful teams. 

I agree with you, but trading away vets for peanuts, vets who are proven NFL starters goes against adding FA's to the roster. With each trade, you have to find another of equal or higher quality.

I believe a team should use trades & FA's on the draft misses and to upgrade a position or 2 each year.

[Catmandude123]

(01-25-2020, 04:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree with you, but trading away vets for peanuts, vets who are proven NFL starters goes against adding FA's to the roster. With each trade, you have to find another of equal or higher quality.

I believe a team should use trades & FA's on the draft misses and to upgrade a position or 2 each year.

Trading away a player will free up money( AJ 18 mil, Andy 17.7 mil) to address other needs. The bad thing is MB doesn't believe in FA's. If he changed this year he will still have to pay a premium price to out bid other teams.

[fredtoast]

(01-25-2020, 05:41 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Trading away a player will free up money( AJ 18 mil, Andy 17.7 mil) to address other needs. The bad thing is MB doesn't believe in FA's. If he changed this year he will still have to pay a premium price to out bid other teams.

Clearly Dalton should be traded.  But I am talking abvout the people saying we should get rid of Kirkpatrick, Dunlap, Atkins, Bernard, and Glenn.

Some of those guys may be overpaid, but not by a lot when you look at replacing with equal value on the free agent market.  And some people act like every free agent signing is a guaranteed success when the truth is many of them flop with their new team.

You all know I think the Bengals need to be more active in free agency.  I just think it is a bad idea to cut a bunch of players and try to replace them with free agents.  It doesn't do you much good to save 25% on salary if you miss on 25% of your free agent signings.  Free agents are not as big of a gamble as draft picks but all Bengal fans know how easy it is for an expensive free agent to be a bust.

[BrownAssClown]

(01-25-2020, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Clearly Dalton should be traded.  But I am talking abvout the people saying we should get rid of Kirkpatrick, Dunlap, Atkins, Bernard, and Glenn.

Some of those guys may be overpaid, but not by a lot when you look at replacing with equal value on the free agent market.  And some people act like every free agent signing is a guaranteed success when the truth is many of them flop with their new team.

You all know I think the Bengals need to be more active in free agency.  I just think it is a bad idea to cut a bunch of players and try to replace them with free agents.  It doesn't do you much good to save 25% on salary if you miss on 25% of your free agent signings.  Free agents are not as big of a gamble as draft picks but all Bengal fans know how easy it is for an expensive free agent to be a bust.

Well of the players you mentioned, Dalton should go, Kirkpatrick should go, Dunlap should stay, Atkins should stay, Bernard should go, and if Glenn doesn't want to be here he should go. It seemed to me the defense played better without Dre, and Darius Phillips stepped it up late in the season. I like Gio, but other younger players can get the same or better production at a lower price, running back is one of the easier positions to replace in the NFL. Dunlap and Atkins are still better than what the Bengals could get signing FA's to replace them. Cordy Glenn did seem to be productive when he did finally play; Zac needs to see if he has a desire to play here or not, we don't need a repeat of 2019.

[WhodeyRay]

Our team philosophies are terrible. We may have at most 2 guys at most that we consider building around and not taking offers for. Saying we won't trade our best players is like my baseball coach saying he wouldnt trade me to the Reds because I am the teams best player and would make them better. I may be great on my team but sure wouldnt be on the Reds.