Duke Tobin on why the Bengals didn't trade veteran players

[TKUHL]

(01-23-2020, 01:18 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Pretty bad logic IMO. Why doesn't he ask the 49ers how their turnaround went?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/duke-tobin-explains-why-bengals-didnt-host-fire-sale-at-trade-deadline/ar-BBZfRQy?ocid=spartandhp

“We are not trying to get better by losing our best players. In our opinion, that’s not the path forward. Lose your best players, how do you get better by doing that? We have guys who clearly some teams were interested in. Well guess what? We are interested in having them, too. They are good players. We weren’t good enough as a football team. Now if we’re going to lose players, how does that improve us? I don’t think any of those (veterans) are done. We think all those guys have life in their NFL career and are going to be a part of our turnaround as we go.”

Yet they let Whit walk?

[jfkbengals]

(01-23-2020, 02:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yea, the logic is flawed.

1) A player like AJ Green is now a FA. There's no reason he couldn't have been traded for a draft pick mid-season and then come back to the Bengals as a FA. Was it worth not getting extra pick(s) for the sake of being able to negotiate with that person prior to the FA period?

2) Tobin's response is like someone who is thinking too short term. Is it worth more having that veteran "best" player for 1-2 years or getting draft pick(s) to develop a new core? If the intent/expectation is to compete for a Super Bowl this year or next year, you go with the veteran. If the team is nowhere close, you go the latter.

3) Like always, they are overvaluing their own guys. They need to realize that just because a guy they have might be good, they might be able to find someone better outside. Yes, there is risk involved, but you can't grow without taking risk.

Actually there are two reasons.  First, only in rare circumstances does a team make that trade without a new contract in place for the player.  Secondly, the new team can then tag the player.

[Luvnit2]

(01-25-2020, 05:41 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Trading away a player will free up money( AJ 18 mil, Andy 17.7 mil) to address other needs. The bad thing is MB doesn't believe in FA's. If he changed this year he will still have to pay a premium price to out bid other teams.

Most have said Dalton should be traded.

A few starting the trade AJ rants only after he got hurt in training camp. Guess what, we could not trade him after he was hurt, he has to pass a physical. He was not cleared as of the end of the 2019 trade deadline medically so again, trading him at that point was not an option.

The only option to trade AJ now is tag him and trade him because as of now, we don't have him under any contract for 2020.

[Catmandude123]

(01-26-2020, 01:44 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Most have said Dalton should be traded.

A few starting the trade AJ rants only after he got hurt in training camp. Guess what, we could not trade him after he was hurt, he has to pass a physical. He was not cleared as of the end of the 2019 trade deadline medically so again, trading him at that point was not an option.

The only option to trade AJ now is tag him and trade him because as of now, we don't have him under any contract for 2020.

I overlooked the fact that  he isn't under contract but was only referencing the fact that he doesn't want to be tagged . In my opinion it would be beyond stupid to think you could MAKE him preform at a high level that would cost !8mil a year. Unless he gives the team an option for 2021 it would be foolish to go thru the same scenario next year.

[Luvnit2]

(01-26-2020, 02:54 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I overlooked the fact that  he isn't under contract but was only referencing the fact that he doesn't want to be tagged . In my opinion it would be beyond stupid to think you could MAKE him preform at a high level that would cost !8mil a year. Unless he gives the team an option for 2021 it would be foolish to go thru the same scenario next year.

I think they are 2 tag options:

1. Franchise Tag - he is ours (unless we trade him)
2. Transition Tag - I think we could place a 1st round tender on him, then we can match the offer or allow to sign somewhere else, but we get their first round pick.

Of course there are tag rules, so maybe or maybe not we can transition tag AJ, I am no expert on the tag rules. He is a vet so maybe subject to only a franchise tag.

[MEBengalsFan]

If the Bengals traded the following players last year what would have the Bengals received as draft capital from the trade.

Geno - given his age and decline in production maybe a 2nd top or a 3rd rounder
Dunlap - given his age and decline in production maybe a 2nd top or a 3rd rounder
AJ - could not be traded due to injury
Dalton - 2nd or 3rd rounder

Those were the players many teams were asking about. Since AJ could not traded that left the team with Dalton, Geno and Dunlap as possible trades. Given that there was no one behind Dalton he couldn't be traded. As for the other two they are worth more than a 2nd rounder to the Bengals even with their current production declining. There is no way two 2nd round rookies would come in and produce similar to Geno or Dunlap. Maybe one rookie from the 2nd round, maybe but not two.

Given this info I can agree with Tobin decision not to make trades.

Dolphins for example were getting 1st round offers for players. My gut tells me that the Bengals were not offered 1st rounders because the age of their star players.

[bengals1969]

(01-24-2020, 11:36 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

Some of us have learned what's worth going nuts over and others haven't.  You have no idea the commitment it takes to be a Bengals fan after living in CA since 1985.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(01-24-2020, 11:36 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

I like to call him Boobie Bumflap myself.  Every time that I see him get a sack I like to squeal "BOOBIE BOOBIE BUMFLAP" in a high pitched voice and do a little dance.  Oh, and you had better brace yourself for a decade's worth of "Joe Burrows."  Saying "Burrow" is like eating spicy food for certain people.  You know.  Camo-boot wearing varmint hunter types.  It's "Burrows" and plain mashed potatoes for them, thank you very much.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-27-2020, 01:51 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Some of us have learned what's worth going nuts over and others haven't.  You have no idea the commitment it takes to be a Bengals fan after living in CA since 1985.

You're talking to a Bengal fan who lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh for 15 years starting in the late 90s (not when I started to be a fan, but when I started living in Pittsburgh; I've moved a few times since). Trust me. I know what it takes to be a Bengals fan.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-27-2020, 02:37 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I like to call him Boobie Bumflap myself.  Every time that I see him get a sack I like to squeal "BOOBIE BOOBIE BUMFLAP" in a high pitched voice and do a little dance.  Oh, and you had better brace yourself for a decade's worth of "Joe Burrows."  Saying "Burrow" is like eating spicy food for certain people.  You know.  Camo-boot wearing varmint hunter types.  It's "Burrows" and plain mashed potatoes for them, thank you very much.

I'll be deaf to all the "Burrows" talk after being inundated with people going to "Walmarts" or doing their shopping on the "internets". 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-27-2020, 02:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'll be deaf to all the "Burrows" talk after being inundated with people going to "Walmarts" or doing their shopping on the "internets". 

Don't forget Krogers and Meijers.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-26-2020, 02:30 AM)TKUHL Wrote: Yet they let Whit walk?

They didn't just let him walk, he said they made offers, but it was about the number of years, and the Bonus.
Bengals wanted 2 years, Rams gave 3, signing bonus bigger (you know guaranteed money) on 3 vs 2.

And Bengals felt they had a possible replacement and with his age, 2 years is about all they felt he had left.

And here we are right now, again talking about signing an aging vet or not (AJ Green).

[Hammerstripes]

I get a chuckle out of the "trade" these guys threads.

The reality is that most of our guys that were being discussed (Atkins, Dunlap, Dalton, AJ) would bring much less than what people would want.

AJ probably could have been traded to a team like SF and would have MAYBE netted a pick in the 26-32 range. Not great.
Atkins would probably draw a 3rd rounder
Dunlap a 4th

Everyone wanted Dalton traded at the deadline, but there were no takers.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(01-27-2020, 08:58 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get a chuckle out of the "trade" these guys threads.

The reality is that most of our guys that were being discussed (Atkins, Dunlap, Dalton, AJ) would bring much less than what people would want.

AJ probably could have been traded to a team like SF and would have MAYBE netted a pick in the 26-32 range.  Not great.
Atkins would probably draw a 3rd  rounder
Dunlap a 4th

Everyone wanted Dalton traded at the deadline, but there were no takers.

Say we traded AJ for a 1st from SF. 

SF has been mocked to drafting AJ Terrell,  Grant Delpit, Tee Higgins etc. Guys who could come in and make a difference this year.

Would love them to get as many top 100 selections as they could this year since there are so many quality players at positions they need to get better at. 

Would have traded AJ no problem at the deadline if it were possible and maybe Dunlap or geno, then move dalton in the offseason.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-27-2020, 09:15 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Say we traded AJ for a 1st from SF. 

SF has been mocked to drafting AJ Terrell,  Grant Delpit, Tee Higgins etc. Guys who could come in and make a difference this year.

Would love them to get as many top 100 selections as they could this year since there are so many quality players at positions they need to get better at. 

Would have traded AJ no problem at the deadline if it were possible and maybe Dunlap or geno, then move dalton in the offseason.

Couldn't trade AJ, he was injured so moot point with him.

[Catmandude123]

(01-27-2020, 02:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'll be deaf to all the "Burrows" talk after being inundated with people going to "Walmarts" or doing their shopping on the "internets". 

I may not be as smart as the average bear but I am a Bengals fan. So what's your excuse Einstein?

[Gdale_Bengal]

(01-27-2020, 10:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Couldn't trade AJ, he was injured so moot point with him.

Wasnt AJ cleared to play after the bye or something? Thought he was or listed as a game time decision. 

[TKUHL]

(01-27-2020, 07:21 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: They didn't just let him walk, he said they made offers, but it was about the number of years, and the Bonus.
Bengals wanted 2 years, Rams gave 3, signing bonus bigger (you know guaranteed money) on 3 vs 2.

And Bengals felt they had a possible replacement and with his age, 2 years is about all they felt he had left.

And here we are right now, again talking about signing an aging vet or not (AJ Green).

This is not just on Brown but the coaches. They see these guys in practice, granted Ced was injured, but they had to see Ced & Fisher were not the Future.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-26-2020, 02:30 AM)TKUHL Wrote: Yet they let Whit walk?

They didn't let Whit walk. They made him an offer and he got a better one from another team. Whit could have taken the Bengals offer but he did what was in his best financial interest. The Bengals could have matched the offer but they didn't feel he was worth that given his age. 

They took a gamble as they felt they had players ready to step up when he walked. Similar to how the let Levi and used Whit in his place. The difference was the players behind Whit were not ready to replace him and he was ready to replace the injured Levi Jones. The gamble failed and cost ML and his staff their jobs, well most of the staff. 

Overall I'm not surprised they let him walk. As for Tobin comment, I get it and even when everyone here was stating trade for draft capital I was against it than. If we did trade as everyone wanted, there would be less pieces in play to help build around Burrow. Instead the organization would have to hope that whoever they draft pans out vs. players that have been producing, especially since the players many wanted to trade away are still under contract going into 2020. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-27-2020, 11:03 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Wasnt AJ cleared to play after the bye or something? Thought he was or listed as a game time decision. 

Don't think so, I think he became a game time decision around the last couple games or so.

He was injured after the bye and during the trade deadline so he couldn't work out for other teams even if we wanted to trade him.