I don’t get the burrow or Bust thing?

[Jpoore]

Genuinely want to get it, but. I’m not in love with him. Could he end up being elite? Sure. But I see him in that Matt stafford cam newton 6-9 nfl qb type range. I see love also in that range but that’s not point of post. Burrow could also bust hard. If ur offered 3-4 1st round picks. U take it. Even if they’re not all this year. That’s means u have 8 1st round picks over next 4 years. U take that all day. U don’t risk it all for one player. Also tell me a qb besides Andrew luck who came into a bad situation and immediately turned it around. Pat mahomes? No they went 12-4 the year they drafted him surrounded by talent. Deshaun Watson? Try again. Surrounded by talent. Lamar jackson? Surrounded by talent. I could go down the list but.... pin the being we need as many high picks as we can be aside despite being optimistic about free agency, we are probably doing the same shit. If that’s the case, if we don’t trade back we’re what? Minimum 3 years away from actually contending. While joe could be great, he could also bust and if u get a blown away offer u have to take it.

[BURROWorBUST]

You make a legit argument. Multiple first rounders would be hard to pass up. In this draft class, I'd take Tua (maybe, depends on his medicals) and Isiah Simmons, but only if I had to. There are, however, no situations where I'd have to.

Do I feel certain enough that Burrow is going to be a great franchise NFL QB that I'd turn down the offer? Yes. I understand that there are no guarantees, but looking at what he accomplished in 2 years at LSU against the toughest competition in the nation, I view him to be as good of a QB prospect that we'll have a chance to draft this year or the next couple of years. His arm strength is more than adequate, but his football IQ and leadership skills are what really convince me that he's the guy for us in 2020.

[Gdale_Bengal]

Have to do the homework first. Burrow is the most nfl ready qb in the draft and Zac is looking to move on from Andy. The only other qb in the draft that excites me is herbert and he needs to sit. So what do we do with Andy? Dong want to keep him, so we trade him and start finley?

People think Bridgewater will come here, he wont.

I almost think Zac is all in on burrow already, because outside Andy we dont have a starting QB on the roster

[*ochocincos*]

(02-04-2020, 12:33 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Genuinely want to get it, but. I’m not in love with him. Could he end up being elite? Sure. But I see him in that Matt stafford cam newton 6-9 nfl qb type range. I see love also in that range but that’s not point of post. Burrow could also bust hard. If ur offered 3-4 1st round picks. U take it. Even if they’re not all this year. That’s means u have 8 1st round picks over next 4 years. U take that all day. U don’t risk it all for one player. Also tell me a qb besides Andrew luck who came into a bad situation and immediately turned it around. Pat mahomes? No they went 12-4 the year they drafted him surrounded by talent. Deshaun Watson? Try again. Surrounded by talent. Lamar jackson? Surrounded by talent. I could go down the list but.... pin the being we need as many high picks as we can be aside despite being optimistic about free agency, we are probably doing the same shit. If that’s the case, if we don’t trade back we’re what? Minimum  3 years away from actually contending. While joe could be great, he could also bust and if u get a blown away offer u have to take it.

It definitely helps that those guys went to teams that were already strong.
I firmly believe those QBs wouldn't be quite as successful if they went to a team like the Browns, Lions, Bengals, Jets, etc.
IIRC, the only QB drafted in the Top 5 in the past 20 years to win a Super Bowl has been Eli Manning.
It's been very rare for a QB drafted in the Top 5 to actually win a Super Bowl.

The Bengals could take the approach of building a bunch of talent for 2-3 years then go get a QB. But with uncertainty of how the new CBA next year will have rookie contracts structured, it may be better to get a QB this year and be on that (much) cheaper 5-year contract compared to a QB drafted in 1st round in the next 2-3 years under the new CBA.

With that said, Burrow has looked like the safest QB to come out of the draft since Andrew Luck. Only having one year of dominance can cause hesitation, but his production was no fluke. The reason for the difference is the playcalling. In 2018, the offense was much more run-oriented and Burrow was relegated to being a game manager. That was LSU's style for years. Run the ball and play good defense. With the addition of Joe Brady, it allowed Burrow to take the reins and he thrived. I am confident that if Burrow had the ability to return for another year and had the same style offense, we'd see another stellar year and it would remove the doubts about him.

[Whatever]

(02-04-2020, 01:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It definitely helps that those guys went to teams that were already strong.
I firmly believe those QBs wouldn't be quite as successful if they went to a team like the Browns, Lions, Bengals, Jets, etc.
IIRC, the only QB drafted in the Top 5 in the past 20 years to win a Super Bowl has been Eli Manning.
It's been very rare for a QB drafted in the Top 5 to actually win a Super Bowl.

The Bengals could take the approach of building a bunch of talent for 2-3 years then go get a QB. But with uncertainty of how the new CBA next year will have rookie contracts structured, it may be better to get a QB this year and be on that (much) cheaper 5-year contract compared to a QB drafted in 1st round in the next 2-3 years under the new CBA.

With that said, Burrow has looked like the safest QB to come out of the draft since Andrew Luck. Only having one year of dominance can cause hesitation, but his production was no fluke. The reason for the difference is the playcalling. In 2018, the offense was much more run-oriented and Burrow was relegated to being a game manager. That was LSU's style for years. Run the ball and play good defense. With the addition of Joe Brady, it allowed Burrow to take the reins and he thrived. I am confident that if Burrow had the ability to return for another year and had the same style offense, we'd see another stellar year and it would remove the doubts about him.

The statistics correlating QB draft position to SB wins are going to off simply due to the fact that a 6th round pick has won 6 of the last 20.

If you look at guys who won multiple SB's in the last 20 years, 3 of them went in the 1st round with 2 of them going #1OA.

You can also look at the Top 5 QB's who made the SB in the last 20 years...

Steve McNair
Kerry Collins
Donovan McNabb
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff

[*ochocincos*]

(02-04-2020, 02:22 PM)Whatever Wrote: The statistics correlating QB draft position to SB wins are going to off simply due to the fact that a 6th round pick has won 6 of the last 20.

If you look at guys who won multiple SB's in the last 20 years, 3 of them went in the 1st round with 2 of them going #1OA.

You can also look at the Top 5 QB's who made the SB in the last 20 years...

Steve McNair
Kerry Collins
Donovan McNabb
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Jared Goff

I know, but I intentionally only said WIN the Super Bowl, not make, because the ultimate goal is to win it not just make it.
As you said, there have been a few QBs drafted in Top 5 in past two decades who have made it to the Super Bowl but not won it (Ryan, Newton, Goff).

My point still stands that most of the QBs going in the Top 5 are going to worse teams than the ones being drafted in the teens, and as such will have a more difficult time reaching the ultimate pinnacle.

The point this directly to the Bengals, they could draft Burrow and end up in the same spot in 3-5 years as they would if they stuck with Dalton, traded back to get more picks, and built around him (or trade up at some point for a QB). There are pros and cons to both approaches, but both relying on the Bengals to improve as an organization both when it comes to acquiring talent and coaching that talent.

[Bengalstripes9]

The Super Bowl should have proven to you the value of an elite QB. If the teams had equal caliber QBs, the 9ers would have blown the Cheifs out. They were the better team on both sides of the line. Mahomes willed his team to a win with 6 min. left, down 10 points. Brady proves it all the time. The comeback against the Falcons? Brady, again--wills his team to a win. He makes the players around him better. He gives his defense the confidence to get a stop.

Yes, there are plenty of other holes to fill. But our best chance of a turn-around is to get a legit QB and leader. Nothing against Dalton, he's been very good. But he isn't elite. When you pick number one overall you need to pick an elite QB, if he's not there, pick an elite pass rusher. If he's not there, pick an elite Left Tackle. Why pass on Burrow when an elite QB prospect only comes around every 5 years? What are the chances of us being in a position to draft an elite prospect like Burrow again? Not good. Most 1st round QBs have some kind of knock on them. Not so much with Burrow. 99% of analysts view him as a sure thing. The 1% that don't are fans like you. Nothing personal. And yeah, maybe he brakes his leg in multiple places and never plays again. Maybe it doesn't work out. But you could say the same thing about any other draft prospect. Pick the best player available. Pick Burrow. Move on to the next round.

Another reason not to trade down: I don't trust our team to draft well with mid 1st round picks. You've all seen the way the last several drafts have gone.

[Bengalstripes9]

Also, I don't think Burrow is going into a situation where he cannot succeed. Our receiving core is a lot better than people give it credit for. Yeah, AJ has been hurt the past couple years. But I wouldn't bet against that monster. He'll be back. We have 3 really good receivers, and some great depth. We have two really good running backs, with some promising players behind them. The only thing we're missing is that elite offensive line. But they are making strides. If they can grab another good guard/tackle in the draft, and maybe pick up a veteran FA guard, we can be a lot better up front this year. We aren't that far off. We have good tight ends, too. Was nice to see our new coach get Eifert through the season healthy. He could be a lot better next year. Uzomah has been good. Sample could still be good. Kittle wasn't very good his first year. Not saying he'll be the next Kittle, but he could still develop into a good tight end. It'd be nice to have a really good blocking tight end like the 9ers have.

There's reasons to be optimistic on offense. And our defense can be middle of the pack with some help to our linebacker core.

I'm not saying we'll be a playoff team next year, but we can certainly make some strides. Draft Burrow. Invest in the offensive line and linebacker core. We can definitely be a lot closer, and put ourselves in position to succeed in 2021. I could see our offensive line improving a lot by the end of the upcoming season, setting us up to fix the linebacker core and defense next draft/FA, and maybe making a run at something. Obviously would need Burrow to be as advertised. I just don't see how you pass on his potential.

[Okeana]

Burrow can handle the media spotlight, he plays better the more pressure is on him in a game and has an established A+ work ethic. Statistically puts up the best college football season by a QB in history, goes undefeated against the best teams in college football which were spectacular this year, and wins a national title game vs what could be considered one of the greatest teams in college football history. These are facts

If you're arguing against Burrow at this point you basically don't believe in superstar franchise quarterbacks and their potential value. That's fine because everyone has an opinion on the position and how teams should be built. My prediction is that if this team doesn't draft Burrow this team will be out of Cincinnati in 10 years and I don't care how many mediocre picks this team acquires. You give this team 8 first-round picks and all you will end up with total garbage Drew Sample bullshit. I could literally throw darts at a draft board and have more success than they have had in the last 5 years.

[BengalsRocker]

(02-04-2020, 02:59 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: The Super Bowl should have proven to you the value of an elite QB. If the teams had equal caliber QBs, the 9ers would have blown the Cheifs out. They were the better team on both sides of the line. Mahomes willed his team to a win with 6 min. left, down 10 points. Brady proves it all the time. The comeback against the Falcons? Brady, again--wills his team to a win. He makes the players around him better. He gives his defense the confidence to get a stop.

Yes, there are plenty of other holes to fill. But our best chance of a turn-around is to get a legit QB and leader. Nothing against Dalton, he's been very good. But he isn't elite. When you pick number one overall you need to pick an elite QB, if he's not there, pick an elite pass rusher. If he's not there, pick an elite Left Tackle. Why pass on Burrow when an elite QB prospect only comes around every 5 years? What are the chances of us being in a position to draft an elite prospect like Burrow again? Not good. Most 1st round QBs have some kind of knock on them. Not so much with Burrow. 99% of analysts view him as a sure thing. The 1% that don't are fans like you. Nothing personal. And yeah, maybe he brakes his leg in multiple places and never plays again. Maybe it doesn't work out. But you could say the same thing about any other draft prospect. Pick the best player available. Pick Burrow. Move on to the next round.

Another reason not to trade down: I don't trust our team to draft well with mid 1st round picks. You've all seen the way the last several drafts have gone.

I get what you're saying but that Falcons/Pats Super Bowl was an epic example of poor coaching vs good coaching.

Just terrible decisions made in that game to affect the outcome.

Not discrediting Brady's obvious talent but there were some crucial playoff games and Superbowls that were off the foot of Vinatieri.

So yes elite QBs certainly don't hurt but there are a lot of other factors that people like to forget because of him being labeled the GOAT.

[*Synric*]

Joe Burrow is a guy you can build your team around. Its not always about "filling holes" it's about finding leaders and playmakers that make everyone else on the roster want to be better. Joe Burrow is that type of player.

[coachmcneil71]

(02-04-2020, 12:33 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Genuinely want to get it, but. I’m not in love with him. Could he end up being elite? Sure. But I see him in that Matt stafford cam newton 6-9 nfl qb type range. I see love also in that range but that’s not point of post. Burrow could also bust hard. If ur offered 3-4 1st round picks. U take it. Even if they’re not all this year. That’s means u have 8 1st round picks over next 4 years. U take that all day. U don’t risk it all for one player. Also tell me a qb besides Andrew luck who came into a bad situation and immediately turned it around. Pat mahomes? No they went 12-4 the year they drafted him surrounded by talent. Deshaun Watson? Try again. Surrounded by talent. Lamar jackson? Surrounded by talent. I could go down the list but.... pin the being we need as many high picks as we can be aside despite being optimistic about free agency, we are probably doing the same shit. If that’s the case, if we don’t trade back we’re what? Minimum 3 years away from actually contending. While joe could be great, he could also bust and if u get a blown away offer u have to take it.

Nice to see a touch of common sense, Rep! I'm overwhelmed by all of the quarterback gurus chiming in for this draft. I have a feeling that many of these great football minds where the same ones that were over the moon when the team drafted Ross at #9.

Mahomes went one pick LATER at #10!!!!

[Au165]

He is that good, I've watched all the tape on pretty much every prospect in the last 5 or 6 years. People who don't believe now are simply playing the averages that you can say every 1st round QB is going to be a bust and you are going to be right about 70%-80% of the time. There is nothing in the tape that should give anyone doubt, and again the fact you can't really find that fatal flaw is scaring people so they go with the knee jerk reaction that it must be a mirage. The "one year wonder" label is cool and all, but there have been a lot of "one year wonders" but none have been THAT good. Great talent around him is a good argument, but there have been guys with better talent around them and not done what he has done. You can say it's Joe Brady, but plenty of QB's have had eventual NFL coordinators running their offenses and not done what he has done.

Any singular argument against the guy would work, except when you look at it all you realize that other have been in similar situations but none were able to do what he did IN THE SEC. Like I said, if you said every QB was a bust you'd be right more than you aren't but there is no actual reason not to take him 1st and the repercussions of not doing so could be catastrophic.

[Okeana]

(02-04-2020, 04:54 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Nice to see a touch of common sense, Rep! I'm overwhelmed by all of the quarterback gurus chiming in for this draft. I have a feeling that many of these great football minds where the same ones that were over the moon when the team drafted Ross at #9.

Mahomes went one pick LATER at #10!!!!

the most irrelevant argument is one made after the fact.  I also remember plenty of guys saying Mahomes was the best QB in that draft.

[Bengalstripes9]

(02-04-2020, 03:36 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I get what you're saying but that Falcons/Pats Super Bowl was an epic example of poor coaching vs good coaching.

Just terrible decisions made in that game to affect the outcome.

Not discrediting Brady's obvious talent but there were some crucial playoff games and Superbowls that were off the foot of Vinatieri.

So yes elite QBs certainly don't hurt but there are a lot of other factors that people like to forget because of him being labeled the GOAT.

I guess we saw different things. I do agree that coaching had a huge part. Brady wouldn't be Brady without Belicheck. But Atlanta was the better team that year in my opinion, and it showed in the first half. What I saw when I watched the game was Brady willing his team to a win. I saw them down three (or four?) scores, and Brady just had this determination to get it done. He drove them down the field, made amazing plays to avoid the rush and fit throws into tight coverage. If it were coaching that got the win, he would have had wide open receivers to throw to. He made a lot of really tough throws to march them down the field. That win (in my opinion) was more on Brady than anyone else. Belicheck backed him up by tightening up the defense and getting him the ball back. But Brady was the catalyst in my opinion. He gave his players the confidence on both sides of the ball to get it done.

[BengalsRocker]

(02-04-2020, 06:34 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: I guess we saw different things. I do agree that coaching had a huge part. Brady wouldn't be Brady without Belicheck. But Atlanta was the better team that year in my opinion, and it showed in the first half. What I saw when I watched the game was Brady willing his team to a win. I saw them down three (or four?) scores, and Brady just had this determination to get it done. He drove them down the field, made amazing plays to avoid the rush and fit throws into tight coverage. If it were coaching that got the win, he would have had wide open receivers to throw to. He made a lot of really tough throws to march them down the field. That win (in my opinion) was more on Brady than anyone else. Belicheck backed him up by tightening up the defense and getting him the ball back. But Brady was the catalyst in my opinion. He gave his players the confidence on both sides of the ball to get it done.

He did do those things.

What I'm saying is the Falcons screwed themselves too.

That game along with the Seahawks throwing the epic interception were the two last head scratcher type coached Super Bowls of recent years.

Like I said.  Brady is a great if not GOAT, but to say his "willing the team to victory" in that particular Super Bowl is ignoring other factors involved.

[J24]

It has to be a real good deal for the Bengals to trade him but I have offered some great hypothetical trades and people have rejected them just cause witch I also find ridiculous.
It's simple dude just had the greatest college season ever in perhaps the best conference in the sport. He also happens to fit the Bengals offense to a T.
With that Being said if a team offers you a great deal then you have to think about it at the very least.
For example ( and this will be over the top)
Colts offer Quinton Nelson + Darius Leonard + 2 future firsts + 2 seconds (both this season) to swap 13th pick for 1st overall pick.

[HarleyDog]

Although drafting Burrow could take a few years to pay off, it sure is going to be fun watching it come together. Shoot, we haven't won a playoff game in almost 30yrs. What is a few more years going to kill us? Ultimately though, I totally see the point of passing on Burrow if a great offer is made. It's not an easy decision to make and at this point, if a great offer is made, there will be some who hate the decision we make either way.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-04-2020, 04:14 PM)Synric Wrote: Joe Burrow is a guy you can build your team around. Its not always about "filling holes" it's about finding leaders and playmakers that make everyone else on the roster want to be better. Joe Burrow is that type of player.

Well said, bunch more Og, Ross, Price picks are not getting this team over the hump. We need a QB that plays his best against
the best competition. Burrow has proven he can do this in the SEC against the best teams and the best Defenses.

I don't get the trade the Burrow pick thing...

[sandwedge]

(02-04-2020, 03:36 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I get what you're saying but that Falcons/Pats Super Bowl was an epic example of poor coaching vs good coaching.

Just terrible decisions made in that game to affect the outcome.

Not discrediting Brady's obvious talent but there were some crucial playoff games and Superbowls that were off the foot of Vinatieri.

So yes elite QBs certainly don't hurt but there are a lot of other factors that people like to forget because of him being labeled the GOAT.

Shannahan not calling TOs at the end of the 1st half, was a coaching blunder, I thought.