Zac Taylor changing MB's mind about Analytics?

[JerseyDD09]

(03-25-2020, 08:14 PM)dr tarzan Wrote: Just where is this information of the DC's that spurned the Bengals?   This is the first I have heard of this.   

From my recollection, for a fact, Jack Del Rio turned down the job. There were a few others as well.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2020, 07:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: This probably partly the case, but it's likely a combination of factors.

I would say that Mike was probably not comfortable with throwing around a ton of money last off-season due to the uncertain labor climate.  With a new CBA in place, he now knows what he's dealing with for the foreseeable future.

He likely also was unsure last year on how much of the issue was with the scheme/coaches and how much was with the players.  They changed coaches and still got poor results, so logically the roster had issues.  Contrary to popular belief, Mikey has been spending for awhile, but it's primarily been to retain our good players.  When you don't have a lot of good young players to resign because you haven't drafted well, that logically means you start spending on outside players.

A possibility is also that they planned to tank the season for a QB from the outset, though it was likely originally Tua and not Burrow if that was the case.  There are things that line up with that realm of thinking.  AJ sitting all year a sprained ankle.  Glenn sitting a big chunk of the year with a self reported concussion even though league doctors cleared him.  Players mysteriously retiring.  The fact that they won their first game when they had a 2 game cushion for the #1 pick and won the second when it was locked up.

It's likely Mike wanted a coach that embraced analytics simply because Chris Collinsworth owns PFF and the two are known to have a good relationship.  Collinsworth would be a guy that Mikey would trust that would broach those kinds of ideas with him.  Marvin was very against analytics, openly scoffing at them in pressers.  It's been said by other owners and GM's that Mike has a dollar value and a trade value in his head for every player on the roster.  For a guy who's already assigning those kinds of number values to players, tools which assign values to players would seemingly be something that would be embraced.  

This is an epic post man. Shit, I just keep going over it and it just makes sense in all aspects.

I will keep coming back to this thread because of this post. 

[JerseyDD09]

(03-25-2020, 07:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: This probably partly the case, but it's likely a combination of factors.

I would say that Mike was probably not comfortable with throwing around a ton of money last off-season due to the uncertain labor climate.  With a new CBA in place, he now knows what he's dealing with for the foreseeable future.

He likely also was unsure last year on how much of the issue was with the scheme/coaches and how much was with the players.  They changed coaches and still got poor results, so logically the roster had issues.  Contrary to popular belief, Mikey has been spending for awhile, but it's primarily been to retain our good players.  When you don't have a lot of good young players to resign because you haven't drafted well, that logically means you start spending on outside players.

A possibility is also that they planned to tank the season for a QB from the outset, though it was likely originally Tua and not Burrow if that was the case.  There are things that line up with that realm of thinking.  AJ sitting all year a sprained ankle.  Glenn sitting a big chunk of the year with a self reported concussion even though league doctors cleared him.  Players mysteriously retiring.  The fact that they won their first game when they had a 2 game cushion for the #1 pick and won the second when it was locked up.

It's likely Mike wanted a coach that embraced analytics simply because Chris Collinsworth owns PFF and the two are known to have a good relationship.  Collinsworth would be a guy that Mikey would trust that would broach those kinds of ideas with him.  Marvin was very against analytics, openly scoffing at them in pressers.  It's been said by other owners and GM's that Mike has a dollar value and a trade value in his head for every player on the roster.  For a guy who's already assigning those kinds of number values to players, tools which assign values to players would seemingly be something that would be embraced.  

 
I like your comments about Collinsworth. Do you know if he's an actual consultant to Mike Brown or not?

In regards to your comments about tanking the season from the onset, to me, they are preposterous and conjecture all the way. The reports were that they hired Taylor b/c he was 100% on board with Dalton as their starting QB and could win with him at the helm. From the onset, no one knew AJ would get hurt in the first practice, Glenn sitting out several games, and you certainly don't go out and tell your players to "tank" or don't play hard b/c we want to draft Tua #1. It's just so ridiculous it's laughable.

[*psychdoctor*]

All I know is the more I look at the Roster, the less holes I see. I do not know if these changes will lead to wins, but what is certain to me at this point, there is a well measured calculated approach to fix tackling and defensive scheme alignments via the free agency with the addition of players in their prime.

This opens the draft to fix the offensive side of the ball.

Bengals lost 8 games last year by one score without their starting LT and their pro-bowl WR. This could easily become an 8-8 team maybe 10-6 after the draft.

Years past, this would not happen. Makes one think that Taylor has convinced the front office to take risks against the cap. I do not know where the Bengals are getting all this money but they have to be close if not over the cap.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2020, 09:11 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote:  
I like your comments about Collinsworth. Do you know if he's an actual consultant to Mike Brown or not?

In regards to your comments about tanking the season from the onset, to me, they are preposterous and conjecture all the way. The reports were that they hired Taylor b/c he was 100% on board with Dalton as their starting QB and could win with him at the helm. From the onset, no one knew AJ would get hurt in the first practice, Glenn sitting out several games, and you certainly don't go out and tell your players to "tank" or don't play hard b/c we want to draft Tua #1. It's just so ridiculous it's laughable.

Collinsworth is friends with MB, that is all I know.

It wasn't meanto tank from the start as you know if you watched the opener in Seattle. They could of beat them and they were 
going all out in this game. Once they met the 49ers the Superbowl team they were clearly outmatched without AJ or Jonah nd Glenn 
and Ross didn't stay healthy either and they went on that skid. Once they were out of it they seemed to tank on purpose specially 
once they benched Dalton for Finley and Finley clearly wasn't ready and was not the answer.

I don't find it as far fetched as you think Jersey, even I wanted us to tank for the first pick after this and I never have thought this.

(03-25-2020, 09:16 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: All I know is the more I look at the Roster, the less holes I see.  I do not know if these changes will lead to wins, but what is certain to me at this point, there is a well measured calculated approach to fix tackling and defensive scheme alignments via the free agency with the addition of players in their prime.  

This opens the draft to fix the offensive side of the ball.  

Bengals lost 8 games last year by one score without their starting LT and their pro-bowl WR.  This could easily become an 8-8 team maybe 10-6 after the draft.  

Years past, this would not happen.  Makes one think that Taylor has convinced the front office to take risks against the cap.  I do not know where the Bengals are getting all this money but they have to be close if not over the cap.

Completely agree with you Psych.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-25-2020, 05:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: No, Kirkpatrick won't be here anymore, Bynes is better against the pass than Vigil, Reader frees up Geno, Hubbard, Dunlap and 
Lawson more so they can attack the QB. Waynes is better against the pass than Kirkpatrick. Bates will only grow into his own 
next to a more quality Safety in Bell. Pratt will get better especially with a smart LB in Bynes. I could go on and on.

Plus stopping the run puts Offenses in 2nd and 3rd and longs where Interceptions are more likely to happen.

And sacks

We gave up nearly 150 yards rushing per game last season ! We got used and abused on outside runs all year. When we get destroyed on the ground the way we did it doesn't matter how good our pass D is.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2020, 10:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And sacks

We gave up nearly 150 yards rushing per game last season ! We got used and abused on outside runs all year. When we get destroyed on the ground the way we did it doesn't matter how good our pass D is.

So true, it just piles on when you cannot stop the run. Hurts the entire Defense more than anything.

We had a good D-line, now we are much better with Reader. Just doesn't matter when you cannot tackle or stop the run.

With Reader, Bynes and Bell we will be so much better this season barring injuries (knock on wood).

This is not even including the other players we added and what is to come in the Draft.

[caneyoufeelit]

(03-25-2020, 05:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: No, Kirkpatrick won't be here anymore, Bynes is better against the pass than Vigil, Reader frees up Geno, Hubbard, Dunlap and 
Lawson more so they can attack the QB. Waynes is better against the pass than Kirkpatrick. Bates will only grow into his own 
next to a more quality Safety in Bell. Pratt will get better especially with a smart LB in Bynes. I could go on and on.

Plus stopping the run puts Offenses in 2nd and 3rd and longs where Interceptions are more likely to happen.

Uhhhhh, Waynes allowed 70% of passes his way to be completed last two years.

Dre was at 54%.

[caneyoufeelit]

(03-25-2020, 05:15 PM)McC Wrote: Not necessarily.  Now you line up two guys who can destroy pockets up the middle, which is a QB's nightmare.  Maybe you don't have to cover for four or five seconds and everybody gets better.

Why are we all assuming Geno is going to be as good as he's been in the past? We all know he wasn't that great last year. He turns 32 in a couple of days.  To me, the Reader signing was more of a "replacement" for Geno than a "we need to pair someone up to take pressure off Geno." Ultimately, it was probably a little of both but definitely more of the former.  

[McC]

(03-26-2020, 05:58 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Why are we all assuming Geno is going to be as good as he's been in the past? We all know he wasn't that great last year. He turns 32 in a couple of days.  To me, the Reader signing was more of a "replacement" for Geno than a "we need to pair someone up to take pressure off Geno." Ultimately, it was probably a little of both but definitely more of the former.  

He had 9 sacks last year.  Seems like more evidence to say he still has it than to say he doesn't.

[caneyoufeelit]

(03-26-2020, 06:17 PM)McC Wrote: He had 9 sacks last year.  Seems like more evidence to say he still has it than to say he doesn't.

Where are you reading that?

Geno played the most snaps of his career last year yet:

Posted his 2nd lowest amount of QB hits (worst year was year after injury)
Lowest amount of TFL
2nd lowest amount of sacks (year after injury and rookie year were lowest with 3)

He hasn't forced a fumble in 5 years. 

He had 15 less QB hurries than 2018.


I don't think pairing both of these guys up will demonstrably help our DL unless Geno plays considerably less downs to keep him fresh throughout the game which probably isn't a bad idea (and something they've mentioned they will do). 

[McC]

(03-26-2020, 06:21 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Where are you reading that?

Geno played the most snaps of his career last year yet:

Posted his 2nd lowest amount of QB hits (worst year was year after injury)
Lowest amount of TFL
2nd lowest amount of sacks (year after injury and rookie year were lowest with 3)

He hasn't forced a fumble in 5 years. 

He had 15 less QB hurries than 2018.


I don't think pairing both of these guys up will demonstrably help our DL unless Geno plays considerably less downs to keep him fresh throughout the game which probably isn't a bad idea (and something they've mentioned they will do). 

Right. Cut him.  He's done.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 05:50 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Uhhhhh, Waynes allowed 70% of passes his way to be completed last two years.

Dre was at 54%.

You sure about that? That is a bit of a concern if true with Waynes.

But at least he can tackle them when the pass is completed lol

[McC]

(03-26-2020, 06:21 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Where are you reading that?

Geno played the most snaps of his career last year yet:

Posted his 2nd lowest amount of QB hits (worst year was year after injury)
Lowest amount of TFL
2nd lowest amount of sacks (year after injury and rookie year were lowest with 3)

He hasn't forced a fumble in 5 years. 

He had 15 less QB hurries than 2018.


I don't think pairing both of these guys up will demonstrably help our DL unless Geno plays considerably less downs to keep him fresh throughout the game which probably isn't a bad idea (and something they've mentioned they will do). 

You're right.  He only had 4.5 sacks last year. 

I apologize for the snarkiness.

I was just so busy at being happy in the change of the franchise MO and so busy enjoying the group giddiness that I temporarily forgot that there will always be someone intent on telling the group why they shouldn't be happy and dimming the mood.

I'm over that now and in the future, I'll remember not to forget that.  And thank you for telling us why not to enjoy it.  Invaluable service you're providing, especially in these light hearted times across the earth when we need all the cold, hard reality we can get.

[McC]

(03-26-2020, 05:58 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Why are we all assuming Geno is going to be as good as he's been in the past? We all know he wasn't that great last year. He turns 32 in a couple of days.  To me, the Reader signing was more of a "replacement" for Geno than a "we need to pair someone up to take pressure off Geno." Ultimately, it was probably a little of both but definitely more of the former.  

I guess I was thrown off by Reader himself talking about playing next to Geno.  What would he know?  My bad.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 05:58 PM)caneyoufeelit Wrote: Why are we all assuming Geno is going to be as good as he's been in the past? We all know he wasn't that great last year. He turns 32 in a couple of days.  To me, the Reader signing was more of a "replacement" for Geno than a "we need to pair someone up to take pressure off Geno." Ultimately, it was probably a little of both but definitely more of the former.  

I thought you knew what you were talking about a bit until I read this. Geno is an End in a 3-4 and Reader is a NT, different 
positions. And even in a 4-3 they play different positions as Geno is a 3-tech. If you don't know these basics don't try and talk
us all down as you should be embarrassed for lack of football knowledge.

[Tony]

I have never seen the Bengals this aggressive in FA. I also haven't been this excited for a season in a long time. Good job Mike!

[Cicero]

(03-25-2020, 03:51 PM)Okeana Wrote: I think there is no doubt that the pressure of the offseason has pushed the higher-ups to change their culture.  Maybe all this media backlash about Joe Burrow really pushed them to change.

I tend to think if media pressure could move him it would have happened a long time ago. I think he has finally realized his days are numbered and he wants a Lombardy trophy before he passes. Would you want to face Dad at the end without some sort of legacy?

[McC]

(03-26-2020, 08:27 PM)Cicero Wrote: I tend to think if media pressure could move him it would have happened a long time ago. I think he has finally realized his days are numbered and he wants a Lombardy trophy before he passes. Would you want to face Dad at the end without some sort of legacy?

Who says they'd both be in the same place? 

J/K.

[masonbengals fan]

(03-25-2020, 04:02 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: All I know for sure is that in Zac's first FULL off-season, after months of being able to view and evaluate this roster, we get these types of signings, and cuts from guys that were signed just last year.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that Zac has influenced and changed this franchises approach.

Absolutely...