Former Bengals QB Evaluates Burrow

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 02:59 PM)spazz70 Wrote: I have told my feelings many times in this thread and many others.  

Again read the statement..."If his ceiling is to be better than all his peers and win championships I’m good with that."


If it said this I would agree with you...  "If his ceiling is to be STATISTICALLY and MENTALLY better than all his peers and win championships I’m good with that."


AJ McCarron was better than all his peers BY winning championships...Was he statistically better?  Was he mentally better?  Was he physically better? No to all three but he was BETTER than his peers and won multiple championships.




Any other disagreement on this board and statistics DO NOT MATTER but for some reason this one keeps bringing up Burrow's stats every time.

AJM was on a better TEAM than his peers.  That makes an ounce of sense, unlike your insane statement.  He wasn't even the best player on his own damn team.  Joe Burrow, otoh, WAS the best player on his own team, in addition to being the best QB in the nation, which is a thing AJM's own mother would have never even claimed.

What the hell are you even trying to prove?  You're pimping OSU, you're pimping a career backup.  And all this is somehow meant to throw shade at our next QB?   What the hell is the point?

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 03:01 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Pretty much. The whole “The” Ohio State entitled attitude rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Personally, I have no love for a team from Columbus. I’m from Cincinnati.

Right.  Am I supposed to support Ohio University?  They have Ohio in their name too.  Are we supposed to be Browns fans?  They're in Ohio too.

Hell, I hate Xavier too and they're right in Cincinnati.  Maybe a lack of understanding of how being a sports fan works is at work here.

Hell, New Yorkers are either Giants or Jet fans and not both, Yankees or Mets fans and not both.

And yeah, the whole "The" thing. What kind of goofy horse shit is that?

[spazz70]

(03-28-2020, 02:56 PM)McC Wrote: Yes.  I live in Cincinnati and therefore know not to call it Cincy.  

I graduated from UC.  Columbus might as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned and I refuse to let anyone try to convince me why I should be a fan of another university outside my home town, a university that can't hold a candle to my alma mater acaemically but acts like they are the **** of the walk and thinks I should feel some obligation to support it.

I must have worked with you.  

I live in Dayton (Miamisburg) and huge UD fan but I still support OSU because I am an Ohioan.  I guess that is the part I do not get.  My son went to UC, I have nothing against UC. As matter of fact I was a huge UC BB fan until they got rid of Huggy.  After working down there is when I saw the distaste of the fans towards OSU that I did not know existed.

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 03:09 PM)spazz70 Wrote: I must have worked with you.  

I live in Dayton (Miamisburg) and huge UD fan but I still support OSU because I am an Ohioan.  I guess that is the part I do not get.  My son went to UC, I have nothing against UC. As matter of fact I was a huge UC BB fan until they got rid of Huggy.  After working down there is when I saw the distaste of the fans towards OSU that I did not know existed.

It has a lot to do with the fact that no one from UC goes around telling OSU fans why they are wrong to not be UC fans.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-28-2020, 03:09 PM)spazz70 Wrote: I must have worked with you.  

I live in Dayton (Miamisburg) and huge UD fan but I still support OSU because I am an Ohioan.  I guess that is the part I do not get.  My son went to UC, I have nothing against UC. As matter of fact I was a huge UC BB fan until they got rid of Huggy.  After working down there is when I saw the distaste of the fans towards OSU that I did not know existed.

McC just made a great point though, do you support every Ohio team, or just the best one?

[spazz70]

(03-28-2020, 03:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: McC just made a great point though, do you support every Ohio team, or just the best one?

Like I said it must be a Cincinnati thing cause I have traveled all over this state and Cincinnati is the only place that has this mentality.

Ohio State is the STATE school for my state.  I never said not to root for UC just like I would never expect anyone to tell me not to root for Dayton.

I would be hard pressed for example to find a large population of people in Cleveland that were Cleveland State Fans but have hatred for OSU.

Again not arguing just could never figure it out.

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 03:26 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Like I said it must be a Cincinnati thing cause I have traveled all over this state and Cincinnati is the only place that has this mentality.

Ohio State is the STATE school for my state.  I never said not to root for UC just like I would never expect anyone to tell me not to root for Dayton.

I would be hard pressed for example to find a large population of people in Cleveland that were Cleveland State Fans but have hatred for OSU.

Again not arguing just could never figure it out.

We've explained it.  It's the hubris of OSU  fans who can't stop telling us about the title they won several years ago.

[Bengalstripes9]

Spazz...

Show me some tape that highlights Burrow's weaknesses and why his success won't translate to the NFL. You are trying to argue this point, that he won't be as good as all the coaches, analysts, and fans say he will be. So prove it. The burdon of proof is on you. There's a ton of evidence out there suggesting Burrow has elite traits that will lead to him potentially being an elite QB in this league. Show me something that highlights his weaknesses. Show me some tape that proves he will flop. Show me some evidence that his pocket awareness sucks, his accuracy sucks, and he is a terrible leader.

This conversation is useless and only serves to stir things up. None of us truly knows what will happen. We can use evidence to support our predictions--but in the end, we have to watch what happens. See how things develop. Compared to any other QB in this class, I think it's safe to say Burrow has the highest ceiling, and the least amount of risk. So what's the point of the discussion? We are in a good position to take a player with a great likelihood of being successful. This is reason to be happy and grateful.

You never know how things could truly shake out. Maybe he gets injured. Maybe he becomes paralyzed and his career is cut short. Maybe he is successful. Maybe he becomes a legend. Maybe he doesn't live up to the hype. Yes, these are all possibilities. That said, I wouldn't blame the Bengals for taking the chance on the best prospect available, regardless of the outcome.

You can't live life being afraid of how things might turn out. You put your best foot forward and do what you can to make things happen. There's a lot that happens that you cannot control. However, if you control what you are capable of controlling--if you continually put your best foot forward--you can hold your head high no matter the outcome. The Bengals would be putting their best foot forward by drafting Burrow. Whatever happens, happens. But there is plenty of reason for optimism.

[Bengalstripes9]

(03-28-2020, 03:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: McC just made a great point though, do you support every Ohio team, or just the best one?

(03-28-2020, 03:26 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Like I said it must be a Cincinnati thing cause I have traveled all over this state and Cincinnati is the only place that has this mentality.

Ohio State is the STATE school for my state.  I never said not to root for UC just like I would never expect anyone to tell me not to root for Dayton.

I would be hard pressed for example to find a large population of people in Cleveland that were Cleveland State Fans but have hatred for OSU.

Again not arguing just could never figure it out.

You didn't answer his direct question.

[spazz70]

(03-28-2020, 03:09 PM)McC Wrote: Right.  Am I supposed to support Ohio University?  They have Ohio in their name too.  Are we supposed to be Browns fans?  They're in Ohio too.

Hell, I hate Xavier too and they're right in Cincinnati.  Maybe a lack of understanding of how being a sports fan works is at work here.

Hell, New Yorkers are either Giants or Jet fans and not both, Yankees or Mets fans and not both.

And yeah, the whole "The" thing.  What kind of goofy horse shit is that?

Yes, I think your lack of being a sports fan is in question.

OSU is the STATE school for Ohio, the state you live in.

Xavier is a Cincinnati School just like I could care less about Wright State.

You can't compare pro sports in this...I could care less that Leon Hall went to Michigan after we drafted him. I am a Bengals fan.  I do not give two shits about the Cowboys or Ezekiel Elliott because I am a Bengals fan.  

I don't care about the Browns because they are my rival just like Xavier is to UC.

I do root for OU some because local kids have gone there and played sports and it is nice to follow them.

As far as "The"...well that is our school's name "The Ohio State University" unlike other schools such as Michigan State, Oklahoma State, Florida State...they don't have THE in their name...OSU does

[*Synric*]

(03-28-2020, 10:52 AM)spazz70 Wrote: Yes, many people are making him in to the next coming when he has not even seen an NFL field.  Just go read this thread and many others.  There are no guarantees in the NFL.  Joe Burrow is 23 years old....has been at 2 schools....graduated from Ohio State...Could not win the starting job at OSU...Had one fantastic year and one average year...Odds are that everything fell into place at the right time as opposed to him being the greatest QB to enter the NFL in the last 10 years because of his gaudy stats on a very talented team.  Again, I hope he comes in and lights the NFL on fire but my expectations are tempered.  I am a huge OSU fan and followed the team and him for 3 years very closely.  He did get injured one year and that took him out of competition for the starting gig but he never really showed enough to be "the guy" at OSU.  One year does not make a player.  I am sorry if you do not like my point of view but I am just not going to be the rah rah guy thinking that one player is going to carry this franchise to the next level even though I hope it does.

Welcome to the age of transfer QBs. I believe Ohio State has one in Justin Fields that couldnt beat out Jake Fromm.

[spazz70]

(03-28-2020, 03:35 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: Spazz...

Show me some tape that highlights Burrow's weaknesses and why his success won't translate to the NFL. You are trying to argue this point, that he won't be as good as all the coaches, analysts, and fans say he will be. So prove it. The burdon of proof is on you. There's a ton of evidence out there suggesting Burrow has elite traits that will lead to him potentially being an elite QB in this league. Show me something that highlights his weaknesses. Show me some tape that proves he will flop. Show me some evidence that his pocket awareness sucks, his accuracy sucks, and he is a terrible leader.

This conversation is useless and only serves to stir things up. None of us truly knows what will happen. We can use evidence to support our predictions--but in the end, we have to watch what happens. See how things develop. Compared to any other QB in this class, I think it's safe to say Burrow has the highest ceiling, and the least amount of risk. So what's the point of the discussion? We are in a good position to take a player with a great likelihood of being successful. This is reason to be happy and grateful.

You never know how things could truly shake out. Maybe he gets injured. Maybe he becomes paralyzed and his career is cut short. Maybe he is successful. Maybe he becomes a legend. Maybe he doesn't live up to the hype. Yes, these are all possibilities. That said, I wouldn't blame the Bengals for taking the chance on the best prospect available, regardless of the outcome.

You can't live life being afraid of how things might turn out. You put your best foot forward and do what you can to make things happen. There's a lot that happens that you cannot control. However, if you control what you are capable of controlling--if you continually put your best foot forward--you can hold your head high no matter the outcome. The Bengals would be putting their best foot forward by drafting Burrow. Whatever happens, happens. But there is plenty of reason for optimism.

Never once argued what he showed on the field in college...go look...not once.  I did however question his one year rise after being in college for 4 years.  I did question him not being able to win the starting gig at OSU.  I did question the team talent surrounding him and how much his performance was because of that.  I did question if he has hit his ceiling.  I did question how a 3 star HS prospect and a 4-5th round pro prospect prior to this season shoots to the number one overall pick.  These are all legitimate questions with no definitive answer.



Again, I hope he comes here and lights the world on fire.  I know that everyone hopes for this. There is no denying his talent, his mental abilities, his accuracy and leadership that he showed in college.  However there are questions that cannot be answered until he hits the field. 

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 04:06 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Never once argued what he showed on the field in college...go look...not once.  I did however question his one year rise after being in college for 4 years.  I did question him not being able to win the starting gig at OSU.  I did question the team talent surrounding him and how much his performance was because of that.  I did question if he has hit his ceiling.  I did question how a 3 star HS prospect and a 4-5th round pro prospect prior to this season shoots to the number one overall pick.  These are all legitimate questions with no definitive answer.



Again, I hope he comes here and lights the world on fire.  I know that everyone hopes for this. There is no denying his talent, his mental abilities, his accuracy and leadership that he showed in college.  However there are questions that cannot be answered until he hits the field. 

How did he not win the starting job at OSU?  Looking back, it looks a lot more like their stupidity than his not being qualified.  

You talk about the team around him as if that diminishes him, then in practically the next breath, you prop up AJM having won two titles when he clearly wasn't nearly the best player on that team, like that somehow also diminishes Burrow.

And then somewhere in there, the question of why UC fans should be OSU fans somehow shows up out of left field.

The field on which this is being discussed would be a tough one to run, what with all the goalposts holes all over it.  A guy could break an ankle.

[spazz70]

(03-28-2020, 04:14 PM)McC Wrote: How did he not win the starting job at OSU?  Looking back, it looks a lot more like their stupidity than his not being qualified.  

You talk about the team around him as if that diminishes him, then in practically the next breath, you prop up AJM having won two titles when he clearly wasn't nearly the best player on that team, like that somehow also diminishes Burrow.

And then somewhere in there, the question of why UC fans should be OSU fans somehow shows up out of left field.

The field on which this is being discussed would be a tough one to run, what with all the goalposts holes all over it.  A guy could break an ankle.

Uhmm, no.... Haskins replaced Barrett (injured) against Michigan and won the game.  The next Spring it was an open competition and Burrow had to pretty much unseat Haskins by this time, especially after his play in that Michigan game.  He did not win the job and transferred.

Dude, My AJM comment was directly a response to a question that I answered...It was just a joke answer anyway.

I never once said you should be a OSU fan...I asked why you are not and you answered....I just thought the whole Cincinnati mindset about it is crazy is all.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-28-2020, 04:28 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Uhmm, no.... Haskins replaced Barrett (injured) against Michigan and won the game.  The next Spring it was an open competition and Burrow had to pretty much unseat Haskins by this time, especially after his play in that Michigan game.  He did not win the job and transferred.

Dude, My AJM comment was directly a response to a question that I answered...It was just a joke answer anyway.

I never once said you should be a OSU fan...I asked why you are not and you answered....I just thought the whole Cincinnati mindset about it is crazy is all.

What’s crazy about not rooting for a team that’s 100 miles away from us? It’s pretty simple, if Cincinnati teams have to play against them they’re the enemy. Period.

Do you think Auburn fans root for Alabama?

[Bengalstripes9]

(03-28-2020, 04:06 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Never once argued what he showed on the field in college...go look...not once.  I did however question his one year rise after being in college for 4 years.  I did question him not being able to win the starting gig at OSU.  I did question the team talent surrounding him and how much his performance was because of that.  I did question if he has hit his ceiling.  I did question how a 3 star HS prospect and a 4-5th round pro prospect prior to this season shoots to the number one overall pick.  These are all legitimate questions with no definitive answer.



Again, I hope he comes here and lights the world on fire.  I know that everyone hopes for this. There is no denying his talent, his mental abilities, his accuracy and leadership that he showed in college.  However there are questions that cannot be answered until he hits the field. 

I know injury and Haskins had a lot to do with him not winning the starting gig. He could have not been ready yet, as I stated earlier. It could have been a host of reasons. The way I see things, Burrow developed and got better as a QB in his time at LSU. He got better and better last year, and really blossomed when they wen't undefeated. 

Again, you can look at it and see a guy that only did well once he had a good team around him; but most NFL coaches, analysts, etc. see a player that improved as a player from last year to this year. He is capable of making plays that you simply cannot teach. He's a no brainer 1st overall pick at this point.

As far as the talent around him argument...You could also make the argument that he elevated the play of those around him, throwing them open, keeping plays alive, etc. His offensive line in particular was looked at as a weakness at the start of the year. By the end of the year all of a sudden people see it as a strength. Again, why is that? Burrow keeping the defense off balanced? The players actually getting better? There's a host of explanations.
But bottom line is the team elevated it's play at the same time Burrow elevated his play. They got better as a team, and Burrow  had a huge part in leading his team.

As a college player he probably hit his ceiling because no college player has ever been that successful. As a pro he hasn't taken a snap yet. He does seem to possess a mind that wants to continually get better and learn. He says he wins games through preparation throughout the week. He studies ball. He loves the game. He wants to learn. Whatever we see from him on opening day, I don't expect that to be his ceiling. I expect him to get better as the season (and his career) goes on. It starts with the drive to learn and grow and get better. He seems to have it. Other 1st overall picks like Jamarcus Russell or whoever didn't have that desire, and flopped. Signs point to Burrow having that desire. Therefore, there is a great chance he won't flop.

I would also argue that his intelligence and spatial awareness are off the charts. Another reason I don't see him flopping. Carson wanted to be the best. He had an amazing arm. He had the drive. But he simply wasn't a natural leader, and he didn't see the field like Burrow does. Burrow has the intelligence, spatial awareness, drive, and leadership ability to go along with his pocket presence, anticipation and accuracy. He wants to learn, and has the smarts to make it happen.

If he's successful here, there will be people saying it's because of the talent around him. It will be hard to make that argument after what we've seen the past few years though. There's only one way to prove it to people though, and that's on the field. Can't wait to see this kid develop!

[Bengalstripes9]

I just don't understand why it's so hard to believe that Joe Burrow got better as a player throughout his career. The great quarterbacks do that. Look at Drew Brees. Look at Tom Brady. Look at any great QB. They got better as they learned and put their mind and body and soul into getting better as a football player.

Why is it so hard to believe that a player like Burrow is capable of getting better. He's a smart kid, why not him? He's got natural ability and spatial awareness, why not him?

He proved what he is capable of on the field, but yet there's people that see it as a fluke? I really don't understand it. Watch the tape.

[McC]

(03-28-2020, 04:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What’s crazy about not rooting for a team that’s 100 miles away from us? It’s pretty simple, if Cincinnati teams have to play against them they’re the enemy. Period.

Do you think Auburn fans root for Alabama?

Who would tell someone who they should root for anyway?  It's pretty weird. 

Could a person in Louisville refuse to be a Wildcat fan?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-28-2020, 10:52 AM)spazz70 Wrote: Yes, many people are making him in to the next coming when he has not even seen an NFL field.  Just go read this thread and many others.  There are no guarantees in the NFL.  Joe Burrow is 23 years old....has been at 2 schools....graduated from Ohio State...Could not win the starting job at OSU...Had one fantastic year and one average year...Odds are that everything fell into place at the right time as opposed to him being the greatest QB to enter the NFL in the last 10 years because of his gaudy stats on a very talented team.  Again, I hope he comes in and lights the NFL on fire but my expectations are tempered.  I am a huge OSU fan and followed the team and him for 3 years very closely.  He did get injured one year and that took him out of competition for the starting gig but he never really showed enough to be "the guy" at OSU.  One year does not make a player.  I am sorry if you do not like my point of view but I am just not going to be the rah rah guy thinking that one player is going to carry this franchise to the next level even though I hope it does.

Guess you weren't  a Kyler Murray fan either and he had way more question Mark's than Burrow does. He seems to be doing just fine and looks like he's gonna have pretty good year this year. 

No one expects Burrow to light up the league in year 1 as there is a learning curve for QBs. It's about how he progresses as he gets more games under his belt. Burrow has a very high ceiling and that's what we want to see here once he is comfortable in the NFL.

Btw. Who cares if Burrows transferred cause he couldnt beat out Haskins at the time. Burrows needed to play to grow. Something he couldn't do at OSU (whom I hate with a passion). It is same for Jalen Hurts. He is a good player and needed to play to keep developing, which he couldn't do behind Tua. Seriously, guys don't get a lot better sitting on the bench. Experience is needed.

[fredtoast]

(03-28-2020, 01:13 PM)McC Wrote: And I fail to see how OSU being too stupid to realize what they had in Burrow or knowing how to utilize him can on any planet be considered a feather in their cap.  OSU fans say the cutest things.

Or maybe, just maybe, a college coach who was named national coach of the year after going undefeated and winning a BCS bowl game at Utah, and who won three national championships at two other schools was actually correct about which QB to play

Like I said, most ofyou did not see him plasy in 2018.  You can talk about shceme mall you want, but if Burrow had the greatest skill set in college history in 2018 then trained scouts would have seen them not matter what scheme he was playing in.

Burrow just was not good enough to win the starting spot at OSU.