ESPN. Bengals on the Rise

[SunsetBengal]

(04-11-2020, 12:14 AM)J24 Wrote: I like the Reader signing but he is getting a ton of money for a nose tackle. 
Wayne's, Bell, and Alexander are good players replacing good players. I don't think we improved those positions and in all honesty those positions we're the problem to begin with.
Answer above also we didn't improve our two biggest weaknesses on the team RT and a 3 down off ball LB.

Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion here.  Bell is a significant upgrade to the Safety position, Waynes has a proven knack for getting INTs and is still a rising player, Alexander is basically a push compared to Dennard but a bit younger.  The difference is that they are replacing 1st round picks by the Bengals, save for Billings (4th round), but these guys were all drafted in later rounds than the guys that they're replacing, yet they have developed into better, more productive players already.

Don't be sentimental when judging football talent.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2020, 12:26 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion here.  Bell is a significant upgrade to the Safety position, Waynes has a proven knack for getting INTs and is still a rising player, Alexander is basically a push compared to Dennard but a bit younger.  The difference is that they are replacing 1st round picks by the Bengals, save for Billings (4th round), but these guys were all drafted in later rounds than the guys that they're replacing, yet they have developed into better, more productive players already.

Don't be sentimental when judging football talent.

Actually Waynes was a 1st rounder. Picked 11th to Dre’s 17th. And Vonn Bell was taken a round earlier (2nd) than Shawn Williams.

[Luvnit2]

(04-11-2020, 12:26 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion here.  Bell is a significant upgrade to the Safety position, Waynes has a proven knack for getting INTs and is still a rising player, Alexander is basically a push compared to Dennard but a bit younger.  The difference is that they are replacing 1st round picks by the Bengals, save for Billings (4th round), but these guys were all drafted in later rounds than the guys that they're replacing, yet they have developed into better, more productive players already.

Don't be sentimental when judging football talent.

The Bengals were soft at LB and at CB the past two years. We replaced decent players with the ability to rattle the joints . We have some guys now who you better know where they are if you are a receiver, they will hit you and will wrap you up.

Add Reader to a good DL and the better tackling and I see s much i,proved run defense. 

Most forget tagging Green may be our best move during free agency.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2020, 12:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The Bengals were soft at LB and at CB the past two years. We replaced decent players with the ability to rattle the joints . We have some guys now who you better know where they are if you are a receiver, they will hit you and will wrap you up.

Add Reader to a good DL and the better tackling and I see s much i,proved run defense. 

Most forget tagging Green may be our best move during free agency.

Yep. AJ was rated the #12 FA by PFF. And 6 of the players ahead of him were QB’s. If another team landed AJ it would have been a HUGE acquisition.

[mikey6866]

(04-10-2020, 09:37 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Shocking, ESPN is saying we are on rise with our FA class and drafting a franchise QB in Burrow.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29001772/five-nfl-teams-trending-where-upgraded-most-offseason

Say we are one year away from playoffs

Somebody needs to remind ESPN that we lost nick vigil.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2020, 12:44 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: Somebody needs to remind ESPN that we lost nick vigil.

I’m surprised the Chargers weren’t on the list.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-11-2020, 12:34 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Actually Waynes was a 1st rounder. Picked 11th to Dre’s 17th. And Vonn Bell was taken a round earlier (2nd) than Shawn Williams.

My mistake, I thought Waynes was a 3rd round pick for some reason.  Thanks for the correction.  However, the premise of my post still stands, those guys are all better than what the players they are replacing.  Ball skills, tackling ability, and tenacity are all things that you want in your defenders.  The Reader signing was huge, but the other signings in the secondary also speak loudly toward what the Bengals intend to do on defense this season.

[Luvnit2]

(04-11-2020, 12:45 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m surprised the Chargers weren’t on the list.

Chargers made big moves to improve an already very good defense. They are a team to watch if they strike out on atop 3 or QB in the draft. Their defense is playoff ready. Their offense under Taylor is far off, Taylor was a starting QB or back up for a Bills team that had a good defense, yet could not win consistently.

No way they trust him, it is all a smoke screen. I am shocked they have not signed Cam.

[Sled21]

The author is an idiot. The Bengals have a legit shot to make the playoffs this year, and I believe they will. And Pissburgh is trending.... downward.

[Luvnit2]

(04-11-2020, 11:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: The author is an idiot. The Bengals have a legit shot to make the playoffs this year, and I believe they will. And Pissburgh is trending.... downward.

ESPN has to balance their readers. 

Steeler fan base - Top 5 in the NFL
Bengals Fan base - Bottom 5 in the NFL

Need those clicks so they said hey Pig Pen is coming back from injury

[J24]

(04-11-2020, 12:26 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion here.  Bell is a significant upgrade to the Safety position, Waynes has a proven knack for getting INTs and is still a rising player, Alexander is basically a push compared to Dennard but a bit younger.  The difference is that they are replacing 1st round picks by the Bengals, save for Billings (4th round), but these guys were all drafted in later rounds than the guys that they're replacing, yet they have developed into better, more productive players already.

Don't be sentimental when judging football talent.

Williams and Bell are the same exact player good run stuffing Box safeties, Wayne's is a better run defender than Kirkpatrick but Kirkpatrick was better against the pass, and I agree that Alexander and Dennard are pushes. I would actually say Alexander is a better bet because he is younger. For the thousandth time Billings wasn't a bad player for us at all in fact he was actually good. Yes Reader is better but we would have been fine at the NT position with Billings and Topu.
I don't think we got worse but we didn't get better. It would have been better if we addressed our biggest need in a true 3 down LB.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-11-2020, 10:31 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Chargers made big moves to improve an already very good defense. They are a team to watch if they strike out on atop 3 or QB in the draft. Their defense is playoff ready. Their offense under Taylor is far off, Taylor was a starting QB or back up for a Bills team that had a good defense, yet could not win consistently.

No way they trust him, it is all a smoke screen. I am shocked they have not signed Cam.

I think Cam is waiting until after the draft to sign with a team. Heard rumors he was wanting to go to Pats as well.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-11-2020, 02:00 PM)J24 Wrote: Williams and Bell are the same exact player good run stuffing Box safeties, Wayne's is a better run defender than Kirkpatrick but Kirkpatrick was better against the pass, and I agree that Alexander and Dennard are pushes. I would actually say Alexander is a better bet because he is younger. For the thousandth time Billings wasn't a bad player for us at all in fact he was actually good. Yes Reader is better but we would have been fine at the NT position with Billings and Topu.
I don't think we got worse but we didn't get better. It would have been better if we addressed our biggest need in a true 3 down LB.

Well, nothing against you, as you seem like a pretty decent and rational person, but we will just continue to disagree on some fine points here.  I think that if the Bengals are serious about running 3-4, 3-3-5, and 4-2-5 looks on defense, the addition of Bell tells me that they are going to be implementing some 3 Safety sets.  Having both Williams and Bell, who statistically speaking are similar players, allows them to be utilized in masked coverages, with one playing "star" LB hybrid, and the other in full coverage.  The Bengals want to take away the entire middle of the field, and that's a good thing.

So, what I'm basically saying is that I'm not convinced that Bell was brought in to replace Williams, as much as to play in coordination with he and Bates.  I agree that Waynes is better in the run and gives up more completions than Kirkpatrick, but his tackling is so much better that I kind of feel like it is not a factor.  He (Waynes) is younger, has sustained fewer injuries, and has a much higher utilization rate than Kirkpatrick.  (a player ready to take the field is infinitely more valuable than one out often with injury) 

[J24]

(04-11-2020, 02:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, nothing against you, as you seem like a pretty decent and rational person, but we will just continue to disagree on some fine points here.  I think that if the Bengals are serious about running 3-4, 3-3-5, and 4-2-5 looks on defense, the addition of Bell tells me that they are going to be implementing some 3 Safety sets.  Having both Williams and Bell, who statistically speaking are similar players, allows them to be utilized in masked coverages, with one playing "star" LB hybrid, and the other in full coverage.  The Bengals want to take away the entire middle of the field, and that's a good thing.

So, what I'm basically saying is that I'm not convinced that Bell was brought in to replace Williams, as much as to play in coordination with he and Bates.  I agree that Waynes is better in the run and gives up more completions than Kirkpatrick, but his tackling is so much better that I kind of feel like it is not a factor.  He (Waynes) is younger, has sustained fewer injuries, and has a much higher utilization rate than Kirkpatrick.  (a player ready to take the field is infinitely more valuable than one out often with injury) 

I agree that's what the Bengals want to do with Williams and Bell. There going to play more 3 safety looks out there this year. The Biggest question is who plays LB and who plays safety in those packages?
The problem with that though is what happens when a team decides to keep us in our base package and kills us with multiple TEs.  I think it's nice to have both Williams and Bell out there but we just can't rely on stopping the pass with just our Nickel units. 

[SunsetBengal]

(04-11-2020, 03:13 PM)J24 Wrote: I agree that's what the Bengals want to do with Williams and Bell. There going to play more 3 safety looks out there this year. The Biggest question is who plays LB and who plays safety in those packages?
The problem with that though is what happens when a team decides to keep us in our base package and kills us with multiple TEs.  I think it's nice to have both Williams and Bell out there but we just can't rely on stopping the pass with just our Nickel units. 

From my point of view, it's pretty simple.  You mask and disguise which one is playing Star and which one is playing traditional Safety, doesn't always have to be the same one playing either specific role.  Anarumo came up as a Secondaries coach, if that is indeed what he's looking to accomplish, I would think it quite innovative if he pulls it off.

[JerseyDD09]

(04-11-2020, 02:00 PM)J24 Wrote: Williams and Bell are the same exact player good run stuffing Box safeties, Wayne's is a better run defender than Kirkpatrick but Kirkpatrick was better against the pass, and I agree that Alexander and Dennard are pushes. I would actually say Alexander is a better bet because he is younger. For the thousandth time Billings wasn't a bad player for us at all in fact he was actually good. Yes Reader is better but we would have been fine at the NT position with Billings and Topu.
I don't think we got worse but we didn't get better. It would have been better if we addressed our biggest need in a true 3 down LB.

Yes, b/c LB is the most important position on defense right? 
I forgot you would rather spend 50 Mill on a decent LB in Schobert than 50 Mill for the top 5 graded DL. 
If the Bengals have a top notch D line, then the LB position is easier. 
Let's just find some guys who actually like to tackle at that position and they'll be just fine. 
Someone like Evan Weaver or Jordan Brooks will do just fine in the 3rd round. 

[BURROWorBUST]

(04-10-2020, 09:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, not so sure I can buy into the "but we were close" in so many of those losses.  Most of those games got cosmetically closer, late in the game, after the other team had taken their foot off the gas.

Had they held momentum throughout most of those games, and lost them late for one reason or another, that logic would hold more credence.  As it stands, I can see the Bengals being significantly better this year.  But I absolutely cannot buy into the close losses last year argument, as most NFL contests are relatively close games.

No me either. I'm much more prone to buy into the excuse that we were without our #1 WR all year. AJ Green DOES make a difference when he's on the field.

HOWEVER, that excuse only goes so far. Our defense SUCKED!! There's no two ways about that. We did get better in the last 5 or 6 games, but those games were against some pretty lousy teams. Even the Patriots were a shadow of their former selves.

THAT SAID, the coaches and front office must agree with my assessment of the D. Otherwise, they would never have gone out and spent the money that they did. As much as we hear that they want to do right by Andy, I think they also want to do right by Burrow by improving the team before we even draft him. That should nullify some of the Carson "Pick-6" Palmer narrative that we're not committed to winning a Super Bowl. Reader, Bell, Alexander, Bynes, and Waynes should all, presuming they stay healthy (Jesus please!) start for us this season. One more key piece for the defense in rounds two or three should be enough to ensure that we will be much better than last year on that side of the ball.

I'm less sure of the coaches' assessment of our O-Line. I think most of us would agree that it, too, needs some serious strengthening. Bobby Hart, Fred Johnson, and the glut of questionable talent at guard do little to instill confidence that Mixon will be able to maximize his potential. Taylor has said that the success of his offense and his passing game hinges on the ability to run the ball. There's a good chance that one of the top tackles in this draft class drops to #33, but the same can be said of one of the top linebackers (Queen or Murray) or Edge guys (Baun). Personally, I'd rather wait until the 3rd round for a linebacker. I'm just not confident that a quality RT is gong to drop that far. I'd rather run the risk of Davis-Gaither, Troy Dye, or Logan Wilson dropping to the 3rd than I am of Lucas Niang or Isiah Wilson dropping to the 3rd. 

As much as I'd love to take one of these #1 caliber WRs in the 2nd round, that would be a luxury I'm not sure we can afford. But I emphasize that I'm not sure. It depends on who falls where, I suppose. I think I'd prefer to wait until round 4, and pray that JaMarr Chase falls to us in 2021. 

[J24]

(04-11-2020, 04:18 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: Yes, b/c LB is the most important position on defense right? 
I forgot you would rather spend 50 Mill on a decent LB in Schobert than 50 Mill for the top 5 graded DL. 
If the Bengals have a top notch D line, then the LB position is easier. 
Let's just find some guys who actually like to tackle at that position and they'll be just fine. 
Someone like Evan Weaver or Jordan Brooks will do just fine in the 3rd round. 

1.) I have never said that infact I have routinely said the the three technique is the second most important position in football besides QB.
2.)  You mean 50 million on a nose tackle? If you're going to argue about positional value than why brag about signing a Nose Tackle? Next to the Sam LB the NT position is also going the way of the dinosaurs.
2b.) My argument has never been against Reader it was  against signing an average CB like Wayne's to 15 million dollars over signing a pro Bowl LB like Littleton to 13 million dollars a year.
3.) Wouldn't mind Brooks but not a big fan of Weaver.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2020, 10:31 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Chargers made big moves to improve an already very good defense. They are a team to watch if they strike out on atop 3 or QB in the draft. Their defense is playoff ready. Their offense under Taylor is far off, Taylor was a starting QB or back up for a Bills team that had a good defense, yet could not win consistently.

No way they trust him, it is all a smoke screen. I am shocked they have not signed Cam.

I was joking about them signing Vigil...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2020, 02:00 PM)J24 Wrote: Williams and Bell are the same exact player good run stuffing Box safeties, Wayne's is a better run defender than Kirkpatrick but Kirkpatrick was better against the pass, and I agree that Alexander and Dennard are pushes. I would actually say Alexander is a better bet because he is younger. For the thousandth time Billings wasn't a bad player for us at all in fact he was actually good. Yes Reader is better but we would have been fine at the NT position with Billings and Topu.
I don't think we got worse but we didn't get better. It would have been better if we addressed our biggest need in a true 3 down LB.

But we weren’t “fine” teams ran it down our throats at will last season.