Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-03-2020, 01:16 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I’m not arguing that it was a good signing. I’m just arguing against the team didn’t do anything. They did something, it just might not be good.

I think a lot of people forget what they have done since this time last year:  

Brought in Fred Johnson
Brought in Isiah Prince
Fred Johnson started week 17 at LT against the Browns and graded out very well.  He will provide significant competition at RT in 2020.  Hart, unlike in previous years, will not be handed the job as Williams takes over at LT.  

Depth and competition at OT.

Benched Billy Price, started Trey Hopkins at Center.  That's right.  A first round pick sat in favor of an UDFA. 
Extended Hopkins after proving he was a solid choice at Center.

Started Fourth-rounder Michael Jordan at LG after Clint Boling retired.  Struggled early and was injured, returned to be the best lineman on the field down the stretch.  No small feat given the revolving door at LT until Johnson played the final game. 

Released John Miller
Signed G Xavier Sua-Filo.  XSF was signed to a very affordable three-year contract to start at RG.  Bigger, longer, stronger than Miller, and quicker off the snap.  I am not a big fan of him based on the limited information available, but I like that the Bengals moved on from Miller and tried to improve the position. 

Drafted Akeem Adneiji.  Only allowed five pressures all year as a LT at Kansas.  Has guard potential.  Very strong, and with surprising athleticism.  Had a ridiculous 34" vertical.  That's three inches higher than Tee Higgins jumped.  He also had a long jump of 115".  That's insane for a man of that size.  Pass protection is his strength, with all his experience at OT, but I think he might be our RG of the future.  The winner of Hart and Johnson will play RT.

That's not "doing nothing" for the line.  They literally addressed every single position on the line since this time last year (except they had already drafted Williams).  

Compared to the starting lineup of last year's week 1:

LT 2019:  Andre Smith....
LT 2020:  Jonah Williams

LG 2019:  Rookie Michael Jordan
LG 2020:  Michael Jordan, who finished the last four games as the highest ranked player on the line

C 2019:  Trey Hopkins
C 2020:  Trey Hopkins

RG 2019:  John Miller
RG 2020:  Xavier Sua-Filo/Akeem Adeniji

RT 2019:  Bobby Hart
RT 2020:  Bobby Hart/Fred Johnson competition winner. 

And, Jason Peters is still out there.  Looks like Philly is likely to get him back, but I would sure look at him as one-year starter at LT and move Williams to RT, where he has played before.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2020, 01:07 PM)jason Wrote: Making Joe Burrow wear those shitty orange jerseys is also failing him.

How dare you.

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-03-2020, 02:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I think that it's more of an "either-or" situation.  Had they went with the Tackle, people would be complaining that they didn't do enough to fix the LB unit.  Besides, as the season approaches, I think that there will be plenty of opportunity for them to pick up a vet for the OL, if they perceive that one is needed.  Much more so than I see the likelihood of finding an impact LB that would fit the budget.

(05-03-2020, 02:33 PM)McC Wrote: The question I would have is if teams had a first round grade on Jones, why didn't somebody take him until the lower half of round 3?  

I don't necessarily disagree with the Wilson pick but the "perception" that the Bengals under emphasize the OL personnel has been prominent since the release of Big Whit and Big Z for years now.  I like Fred Johnson but he and J. Williams are unknowns.  My guess is that Jones had some background noise that has not been made public and I would guess that the Bengals have a psychological profile in terms of leadership and work ethic that Jones did not meet.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2020, 03:01 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I don't necessarily disagree with the Wilson pick but the "perception" that the Bengals under emphasize the OL personnel has been prominent since the release of Big Whit and Big Z for years now.  I like Fred Johnson but he and J. Williams are unknowns.  My guess is that Jones had some background noise that has not been made public and I would guess that the Bengals have a psychological profile in terms of leadership and work ethic that Jones did not meet.  

Maybe they just weren’t crazy about him from his interview? He dropped to the 3rd for some reason...

[*Synric*]

It's not that they under value the offensive line it's just they have made bad choices since 2015.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Michael Jordan has developed going into year two. Before the apocalypse he was working with Carlos Dunlap in Florida.

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-03-2020, 03:03 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Maybe they just weren’t crazy about him from his interview? He dropped to the 3rd for some reason...

I think so.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-03-2020, 02:44 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Brought in Isiah Prince

I couldn't wait for him to leave Ohio State so this is more of a negative than a positive.

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-03-2020, 03:16 PM)Synric Wrote: It's not that they under value the offensive line it's just they have made bad choices since 2015.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Michael Jordan has developed going into year two. Before the apocalypse he was working with Carlos Dunlap in Florida.

If the Bengals line can score PFF ratings like they did the last 5 games of the 2019 season, I think they will be fine because Burrow moves well in pocket.  

[SunsetBengal]

(05-03-2020, 03:01 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I don't necessarily disagree with the Wilson pick but the "perception" that the Bengals under emphasize the OL personnel has been prominent since the release of Big Whit and Big Z for years now.  I like Fred Johnson but he and J. Williams are unknowns.  My guess is that Jones had some background noise that has not been made public and I would guess that the Bengals have a psychological profile in terms of leadership and work ethic that Jones did not meet.  

Or, it could be that the Bengals are actually content with what they have done for the Tackle position.  Adeniji was by all accounts a lucky find in the 6th round.  A 4 year starter at LT and team captain, who showed good improvement every year.  Being a good player on a poor team is no small feat.  Had Adeniji played for a team like Oklahoma or Iowa, he's then likely a much more highly regarded prospect, based on source credibility alone.  The same goes for Fred Johnson, he likely went undrafted because he played on some uncharacteristically poor Florida teams.  Had he played on one of their stronger teams, he's likely more highly sought after.

You refer to Johnson as an unknown, but the Bengals were comfortable pressing him into service last year.  He did well, graded out at 72.  Much higher than any Bengal OL not named Cordy Glenn last season.  He was well regarded by media that covers the Steelers, as well.  This Western PA News Outlet said that he had an impressive camp and preseason.

https://triblive.com/sports/bengals-claim-promising-rookie-guard-fred-johnson-off-waivers-from-steelers/

Quote:The AFC North rival Cincinnati Bengals announced Monday they claimed rookie guard Fred Johnson off waivers from the Pittsburgh Steelers, robbing the Steelers of a promising offensive lineman prospect.

The 6-foot-7, 325-pound Johnson was signed as an undrafted free agent out of Florida and was impressive during training camp and in preseason games. He was inactive for each of the Steelers’ first five games and was waived Friday when the Steelers needed space on their 53-man roster to promote players from their practice squad.

Quote:The #Bengals acquired OT/G Fred Johnson on waivers from Pittsburgh & placed DE Kerry Wynn on the Reserve/Injured list.
: https://t.co/j5T5B10WCq pic.twitter.com/tzarw7blGU
— Cincinnati Bengals (@Bengals) October 14, 2019

Johnson and journeyman outside linebacker Jayrone Elliott were waived to make room for running back Trey Edmunds and quarterback Paxton Lynch in the wake of the injuries to Jaylen Samuels and Mason Rudolph.
Johnson, who also repped at tackle, said he was told he would be welcomed back to the Steelers if he cleared waivers. And with the news Monday that Stephon Tuitt is out for the season, Johnson likely would have been signed back to the 53-man roster.

Quote:Fred Johnson said he was told that he would be brought back Monday — if he clears waivers
https://t.co/XJm8esVrye
— Chris Adamski (@C_AdamskiTrib) October 12, 2019

The Bengals and 0-6 and have the second-worst pass blocking in the NFL, per Pro Football Focus rankings. Only four teams have allowed more sacks (22).
The loss of Johnson represents that all 10 of the players the Steelers signed as undrafted free agents in the hours after the draft ended have been waived, although cornerback Alexander Myres was re-signed to their practice squad earlier this month and undrafted quarterback Devlin Hodges was added later in the summer.
The Steelers have veteran B.J. Finney as a backup at all three interior line spots.
Hey, Steelers Nation, get the latest news about the Pittsburgh Steelers here.

[JSR18]

I get the O-line vs. LBer arguments.

However, they just got some money "to play with", maybe we'll see some Oline additions...

[Au165]

You can protect a bad o line with scheme...you can’t hide bad linebackers. You can’t argue whether or not Taylor can, but it can be done. The Chargers for years have made due with horrible O lines via scheme and that was with one of the least athletic QBs in recent history. The thing with defense is you are always playing to what the offense gives you so they dictate to an extent what you have to do. With that in mind you can’t protect weak units defensively as easily as you can offensively.

[jj22]

I think if LT is solved the whole offense will operate. We saw this when they were able to score 30+ in the games Fred started or played majority of the snaps solidifying LT those last two games.

I think the big mistake last year was the revolving door at RG/LG (as well as losing Jonah) during camp/preseason etc. They just didn't have time to gel until later in the year.

We might be okay if we can just find a RG.

[*Synric*]

Since there is no offseason installs this year do to the apocalypse I think having 2 extra weeks no pads for training camp would be a great idea.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-03-2020, 03:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Or, it could be that the Bengals are actually content with what they have done for the Tackle position.  Adeniji was by all accounts a lucky find in the 6th round.  A 4 year starter at LT and team captain, who showed good improvement every year.  Being a good player on a poor team is no small feat.  Had Adeniji played for a team like Oklahoma or Iowa, he's then likely a much more highly regarded prospect, based on source credibility alone.  The same goes for Fred Johnson, he likely went undrafted because he played on some uncharacteristically poor Florida teams.  Had he played on one of their stronger teams, he's likely more highly sought after.

You refer to Johnson as an unknown, but the Bengals were comfortable pressing him into service last year.  He did well, graded out at 72.  Much higher than any Bengal OL not named Cordy Glenn last season.  He was well regarded by media that covers the Steelers, as well.  This Western PA News Outlet said that he had an impressive camp and preseason.

https://triblive.com/sports/bengals-claim-promising-rookie-guard-fred-johnson-off-waivers-from-steelers/

I don't think it's any stretch at all that Johnson could be a very strong RT candidate.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Junk article.

1) The MEDIA had Jones as a first round talent, and some had Cleveland there as well. But the fact is, NFL teams did not. He went in round 3. Cleveland in Round 2. The guy wants to cover his own butt because teams did not agree with his evaluations.

2) Anyone who thinks a team is set at WR because the have John Ross is an idiot. Plus, he fails to mention that AJ has not been healthy for 2 years either.

3) Two rookie tackles is not exactly a recipe for great pass protection. No matter who they are.

4) The guy writes an article on the O-line but fails to mention the scheme change. Shows his depth of suvject matter knowledge is shallow.

I still hope we sign some reinforcements (Peters, Jackson, etc) if we have cap room after Mixon's new deal is done. Even absent that, if Jordan & Johnson improve, and Price is healthy, I think we could be OK.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-03-2020, 03:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I couldn't wait for him to leave Ohio State so this is more of a negative than a positive.

I disagree, and it wouldn't be the first time the Bengals found a diamond in the rough.  He is very long and strong, with decent stride length.  And as far as his career at OSU, he played in games as a true freshman, started the next two years and was all-conference his last season.  Frankly, he was a higher rated prospect than Adeniji coming out and we got him for next to nothing.  It is worth a look.  

[samhain]

This article is jumping the gun a bit. I'd like to see more talent on the line, but there are 2 things at play here:

1: This team, in case you didn't notice, really effing sucked last year at several position groups. They sucked practically everywhere on the defensive side, save maybe the line at the end of the season. They needed a lot of upgrades. There wasn't enough money or draft picks to address them all. Beating up on the worst team in football for not fixing every position on the roster is a cheap narrative to start off with.

2. The team says they like the guys they have, and they've stuck with that assertion all year. With all of the other things they've done to address personnel, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here. if they truly believed that the o-line was going to get Burrow killed, I think they'd have attempted to do more.

I don't love Turner. I think he's a clown. Still, it's worth seeing if continuity in his system and a year of development/chemistry for younger guys can make the difference. If not, then attack the o-line like you did linebacker and the secondary this year.

It's easy to say that an o-line is essential to developing a young franchise quarterback, but it's not the ONLY essential thing. I imagine any quarterback would appreciate a defense that plays well enough to take some of the pressure of of them. To me it was just a matter of not being able to do everything at once.

[RASCAL]

(05-03-2020, 03:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I couldn't wait for him to leave Ohio State so this is more of a negative than a positive.

ME TOO!! that guy was terrible!!!

[BengalsBong]

Billy Price could go a long way to help build this o line up. I do not have much faith in him like about all of you but it only matters if he has faith in himself. He was a first round pick for a reason and a lot of other teams had him as a first or second round pick as well so he has talent. If he could play good enough to lock down a starting spot at guard or center it would help our o line a great deal.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-03-2020, 07:18 PM)samhain Wrote: This article is jumping the gun a bit.  I'd like to see more talent on the line, but there are 2 things at play here:

1:  This team, in case you didn't notice, really effing sucked last year at several position groups.  They sucked practically everywhere on the defensive side, save maybe the line at the end of the season.  They needed a lot of upgrades.  There wasn't enough money or draft picks to address them all.  Beating up on the worst team in football for not fixing every position on the roster is a cheap narrative to start off with.

2.  The team says they like the guys they have, and they've stuck with that assertion all year.  With all of the other things they've done to address personnel, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.  if they truly believed that the o-line was going to get Burrow killed, I think they'd have attempted to do more.  

I don't love Turner.  I think he's a clown.  Still, it's worth seeing if continuity in his system and a year of development/chemistry for younger guys can make the difference.  If not, then attack the o-line like you did linebacker and the secondary this year.  

It's easy to say that an o-line is essential to developing a young franchise quarterback, but it's not the ONLY essential thing.  I imagine any quarterback would appreciate a defense that plays well enough to take some of the pressure of of them.  To me it was just a matter of not being able to do everything at once.

That's the thing, were we really gonna fix all the holes on this team in one offseason ? No but they gave it one hell of a shot !