Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

[SunsetBengal]

(05-05-2020, 07:16 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Came into this thread late and I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, but I did want to talk about the O line. There are only a few options out there that would improve the situation at this point as I see it.

Larry Warford. Currently under contract with the Saints, rumored to be either dealt or cut. I think they'll actually take him into training camp, and cut/trade him if he doesn't win the starting job. Either way we'd have to beat other teams to the punch for a guy who is, per rumor, falling out of favor with the Saints, and who wouldn't have TC to learn our scheme.

Joe Thuney. Pats have until July 15 to reach an agreement with him to lower his cap number. I'd give up a #2 in 2021 for him right now, as long as we had a new deal in place for him, but I doubt we will.

Kelvin Beachum. Probably washed up as a starting tackle, but has played guard before and could start there for us, sliding out to OT in an emergency. But, at this point of his career he'll probably wait until TC to sign. I wouldn't hate it at all.

Jason Peters. At the end of a hall of fame career, Peters will wait for a serious contender to have an injury at OT. No way he signs with the Bengals.

Brian Winters, NYJ. Rumored to be cut but hasn't been yet. That could happen in TC if he doesn't win the starting job, but then again if he can't win a starting job on the Jets O line how much help could he be here? A veteran in decline. Meh.

Agree with your take on the situation of available veteran OL players.  It's tough for me to envision the Bengals giving up the money for a Warford or Thuney at Guard, they just don't like to spend that kind of money on that position.  As for the Tackles, I also agree on "why would Peters want to come to a team without a solid shot at another Championship?", as well as Beachum and Winters being just over the hill.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-05-2020, 07:23 PM)McC Wrote: How is it that you know this?

Common sense. 

[samhain]

(05-05-2020, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am 100% agreeing with the NFL talent evaluators.

According to them LSU had the #2 OG, #3 OC, and #12 OT in the draft.  And some how all three of these "not good" linemen were either first or second team All-SEC

The people I am disagreeing with are the ones who claim that was not one of the best O-lines in the country.  If the O-linemen were not good and the production was all due to skill players then these O-linemen would not be rated that high.  NFL scouts are not that stupid.  They realize it is possible to have BOTH good skill players and good offensive linemen.  


For some strange reason they don't feel obligated to freak out when someone suggests that Joe Burrow did not win the National Championship all by himself.

Correct me if I misremember, but aren't you the same guy that used to argue that third round picks were basically guys with no real shot at starting on NFL rosters in year 1?  I'm almost positive that you made that assertion when arguing against other board members who suggested that Marvin wouldn't play rookies.  

So are the LSU linemen just not that great or have you changed your view of 3rd round picks?  I mean, if they were the reason for all of LSU's success as you suggest, wouldn't some team want one of those dudes starting on their line immediately?  

If having 2 OL that get taken in the 3rd round make your quarterback into a Heisman-winning-national-champ-first-overall-pick-statistical monster, then why didn't Georgia win a national title? They had two guys go in the first, plus another in the 4th. Jake Fromm was at least as highly regarded as Burrow before the 2019 season, yet he accomplished much less.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-03-2020, 11:44 AM)McC Wrote: Didn't read the whole thing.  It surpassed my 20 paragraph limit for articles taking shots at the Bengals.

LSU's line didn't make Burrow look good.  It was the other way around.

Yep, this is where I stopped reading when they started saying how the OL was so great at LSU last year.  

Made me lol. They were a good run blocking O-line but not good at all in pass protection. Burrow was sacked 30 times and was
very good at avoiding sacks and he was getting hit constantly. Burrow like you said here McC made that O-line look much better
than it was. I believe we definitely need to improve on the OL but they aren't the worst OL in the NFL and Burrow had a poor 
pass blocking OL last year and still did what he did.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-05-2020, 08:34 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Common sense. 

Peters already has a ring, why we he turn down good money to holdout for a contender?

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-05-2020, 09:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Peters already has a ring, why we he turn down good money to holdout for a contender?

To get another ring. He already has lots of money too. 

[McC]

(05-05-2020, 08:34 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Common sense. 

Oh, so you call believing the myth about rings being all that matters.  I guess that's why jack Conklin left the team that was in the AFCCG to play for the team that's the third best team in its own division.

They go where the money is, with few exceptions. 

Besides, Jason Peter already has a ring and his phone ain't exactly ringing off the hook.  What week of free agency are we in?  My common sense says he'll sign with whoever makes the right offer first.

[*Synric*]

(05-05-2020, 10:16 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: To get another ring. He already has lots of money too. 

Jason Peters will go to a team that will offer him the most financial stability. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-05-2020, 10:16 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: To get another ring. He already has lots of money too. 

The money is a sure thing.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-05-2020, 10:26 PM)McC Wrote: Oh, so you call believing the myth about rings being all that matters.  I guess that's why jack Conklin left the team that was in the AFCCG to play for the team that's the third best team in its own division.

They go where the money is, with few exceptions. 

Besides, Jason Peter already has a ring and his phone ain't exactly ringing off the hook.  What week of free agency are we in?  My common sense says he'll sign with whoever makes the right offer first.

Conklin is much younger, and Cleveland has just as much chance to be serious contenders before his career is up as anybody. 

No matter who signs him, Peters is going to get a contract 2-3 million. His phone may not be ringing off the hook now, but it will when some tackle goes down in training camp. 38 year old hall of famers do not just say "sure, i'll tack another year onto my career with the team that was the laughing stock of the NFL last year." There isn't likely to be that big of a difference between what we offer and what anybody else does. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-05-2020, 11:07 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Conklin is much younger, and Cleveland has just as much chance to be serious contenders before his career is up as anybody. 

No matter who signs him, Peters is going to get a contract 2-3 million. His phone may not be ringing off the hook now, but it will when some tackle goes down in training camp. 38 year old hall of famers do not just say "sure, i'll tack another year onto my career with the team that was the laughing stock of the NFL last year." There isn't likely to be that big of a difference between what we offer and what anybody else does. 

Except that’s pretty much what Whit did. He chose a team that was 4-12 the year before because they offered him the best deal.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-06-2020, 12:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Except that’s pretty much what Whit did. He chose a team that was 4-12 the year before because they offered him the best deal.

ok sure, anything's possible I guess. Just not holding my breath. 

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2020, 08:55 PM)samhain Wrote: Correct me if I misremember, but aren't you the same guy that used to argue that third round picks were basically guys with no real shot at starting on NFL rosters in year 1?  I'm almost positive that you made that assertion when arguing against other board members who suggested that Marvin wouldn't play rookies.  

Third round picks are usually very good players in college.  It is possible to be a very good player in college and not be an instant starter in the NFL.  As I pointed out the three LSU O-linemen drafted were all first or second team All-sec.

(05-05-2020, 08:55 PM)samhain Wrote: So are the LSU linemen just not that great or have you changed your view of 3rd round picks?  I mean, if they were the reason for all of LSU's success as you suggest, wouldn't some team want one of those dudes starting on their line immediately?  

I never said the o-line was the reason for all of LSU's success.  Go back and read what was actually said.  I jus dared to suggest that Joe Burrow had a good O-line at LSU and a few people lost their shit because I dared suggest that he did not win the National Championship all by himself.

(05-05-2020, 08:55 PM)samhain Wrote: If having 2 OL that get taken in the 3rd round make your quarterback into a Heisman-winning-national-champ-first-overall-pick-statistical monster, then why didn't Georgia win a national title?  

Again, no one said that.  It is just a straw man you created because you can't logically disagree with what I actually said.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 01:39 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: That line also allowed Joe to be the 2nd most pressured QB in the SEC last year. About a 3rd of all his throws came under duress.

It's fine for the writer to post stats that he thinks supports his argument, but he conveniently left those other stats out.

The reason they allowed a high number of pressures was that they were often playing with just 5 in protection making it easier for opposing defenses to overload on spot with a blitz.

Here is what the people who broke down the film had to say about LSU's pass protection

https://247sports.com/college/lsu/Article/College-Football-Joe-Moore-Award-LSU-OL-winner-2019-offensive-line-140841795/

"There is a tendency to hyper-focus on the rushing attacks and the run-blocking of these units, but LSU forced us to really alter our filters and do a deeper dive. They were solid against the run, but their ability to handle protection duties against SEC rushers with so many receivers out in routes was really impressive and one of the reasons QB Joe Burrow won the Heisman. It's not THE reason, but it's definitely one of them."

"It's incredible how often and how well they pass block in "empty" protection (no TE or RB help). There are plays all season, including the SEC Championship game where they are blocking 6, 7, 8, 10 seconds while Burrow looks to throw downfield. Great awareness in pass pro and often look for work and pick up delayed rushers. Appear willing to happily serve up some "full slabs" by rearranging an unsuspecting D-lineman's rib cage in slide protection. Very physical bunch."

"Passing as much as this offense did this year puts a unique strain on the group up front and boy did they respond. Sitting and watching these guys on film, the number of pass protection reps that I wrote down 'Teach Tape Worthy' next to in my notes was remarkable. Pass pro is definitely not passive for these guys."

[Bengalholic]

(05-06-2020, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The reason they allowed a high number of pressures was that they were often playing with just 5 in protection making it easier for opposing defenses to overload on spot with a blitz.

“Statistically, it shows that when you're in five-man protection, five-man protections give up less sacks...you actually get the ball out faster. You limit what defenses can do.”  - Joe Brady

'Not only does LSU bring in more EPA per play with five or fewer pass-blockers compared to plays with six or more, but they are allowing a pressure rate that’s 6% less with five pass-blockers.' - PFF

Imagine how many more sacks that line would've given up if it hadn't been for five-man protections, and Joe's ability to scramble, escape and create soemthing out of nothing while under pressure.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-06-2020, 03:35 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: “Statistically, it shows that when you're in five-man protection, five-man protections give up less sacks...you actually get the ball out faster. You limit what defenses can do.”  - Joe Brady

'Not only does LSU bring in more EPA per play with five or fewer pass-blockers compared to plays with six or more, but they are allowing a pressure rate that’s 6% less with five pass-blockers.' - PFF

Imagine how many more sacks that line would've given up if it hadn't been for five-man protections, and Joe's ability to scramble, escape and create soemthing out of nothing while under pressure.

Yep, that O-line was not good in pass protection which is why I think Burrow will do just fine here. We will need to go to more
five-man protections and run a lot more out of the Shotgun like Burrow did at LSU last year.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2020, 04:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yep, that O-line was not good in pass protection

What are you saying "Yep" to?  Not a single comment in that quote said the LSU O-line was not good as pass protection.  They were actually one of the best.

Burrow had the third longest time to throw of any QB in the SEC.  Most of the time that he felt pressure was when he held onto the ball longer to try and make a play downfield.  That is the only way a QB who has a long time to throw can get a lot of pressure.

[CJD]

What a stupid article.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 11:36 AM)kdgjr Wrote: Burrow had the second-longest average time to throw in the SEC last season despite having the third-fewest average blockers in protection, according to SEC Stat Cat. The quarterback proved to be deadly from a clean pocket.

(05-06-2020, 03:35 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: “Statistically, it shows that when you're in five-man protection, five-man protections give up less sacks...you actually get the ball out faster. You limit what defenses can do.”  - Joe Brady

'Not only does LSU bring in more EPA per play with five or fewer pass-blockers compared to plays with six or more, but they are allowing a pressure rate that’s 6% less with five pass-blockers.' - PFF

Imagine how many more sacks that line would've given up if it hadn't been for five-man protections, and Joe's ability to scramble, escape and create soemthing out of nothing while under pressure.

You are trying to say "apples" to prove "oranges."

The fact that he gets less pressure with a five man front just means he is throwing the ball away quicker.  This is great if you never want to throw the ball very far downfield.  Also it says nothing about the quality of the pass blocking.  The comments Brady makes about five man protection applies to both bad and good O-lines.


Same goes for the stats showing better protection with just 5.  It applies to both good and bad O-lines.


nothing about either one of these quotes changes the fact that LSU had one of the best pass blocking lines in the nation.    

[*Synric*]

(05-06-2020, 05:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are trying to say "apples" to prove "oranges."

The fact that he gets less pressure with a five man front just means he is throwing the ball away quicker.  This is great if you never want to throw the ball very far downfield.  Also it says nothing about the quality of the pass blocking.  The comments Brady makes about five man protection applies to both bad and good O-lines.


Same goes for the stats showing better protection with just 5.  It applies to both good and bad O-lines.


nothing about either one of these quotes changes the fact that LSU had one of the best pass blocking lines in the nation.    

Athlon Sports ranks LSU offensive line 20th mostly due to Run Blocking
Pro Football Focus ranks LSU offensive line 30th mostly due to run blocking.

Football Outsides ranks LSU offensive line 64th in sack Rate and 45th in sack rate per pass downs.


No...The LSU offensive line was not very good in pass protection. It just shows you how well Joe Burrow performed under pressure.