QB or the WR which is it ?

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-21-2020, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Gee I wonder why you didn't quote the entire OP?

Couldn't possibly be these parts could it?



The OP was clearly about the Bengals and Andy Dalton.  

Everyone else was talking about Dalton.

It was not unreasonable to assume you were also talking about Dalton.

You know the old adage about assuming...

When I say I wasn’t talking about Dalton that doesn’t mean anything? Not sure why you can’t take my word on that...

But hey, let’s talk about Dalton since you seem so inclined. Using logic you have used many times, the league agreed this offseason that he is a backup QB. Backup QBs are worse than starters right? If we had a backup caliber QB starting last year, then maybe QB was indeed a problem.

[Tony]

(05-21-2020, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The notion that Dalton never makes plays under pressure is a silly one also, don't you agree?

He didn't at it was very obvious. I do however remember alot of back breaking turnovers in big games by him. The fumble in the charger playoff game. Dalton was basically Chad Pennongton average as hell to very bad. Never great...

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2020, 05:25 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: When I say I wasn’t talking about Dalton that doesn’t mean anything? Not sure why you can’t take my word on that...

Not disputing that you were not talking about Dalton.

Just sayin g that since everyone else in the thread was talking about Dalton is was reasonable to assume you were also.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2020, 06:14 PM)Tony Wrote: He didn't at it was very obvious. I do however remember alot of back breaking turnovers in big games by him. The fumble in the charger playoff game. Dalton was basically Chad Pennongton average as hell to very bad. Never great...

How does an "average as hell to very bad" QB finish 2nd in MVP voting and retire holding the NFL career completion percentage record?

Thanks for proving how much you know about NFL quarterbacks.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2020, 05:25 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote:  Backup QBs are worse than starters right? 

Was Patrick Mahommes worse than Alex Smith?

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-21-2020, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Was Patrick Mahommes worse than Alex Smith?

Using Fred logic, yes Mahommes was worse than Alex Smith during his rookie year.

NFL organizations and coaches have determined Andy Dalton is a backup QB. Is Andy Dalton not a backup QB?

[Whatever]

(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All the WR threads and threads about player stats or production over the past several days have got me thinking  

And we've been through this topic numerous times over the years. But just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players ?

I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?

It's both the QB and the WR's. 

On errant throws, you have to analyze WHY the throw was off.  Sometimes, the QB's mechanics fall apart under pressure or he simply misfires.  Other times, there's other factors at work.

For example, back shoulder throws are nearly always a check for a vertical route against press man.  If the WR recognizes it late, he often keeps pushing up the field and what you get is what looks like an underthrown ball.  Now, Andy is known to be great at presnap reads, so you generally put those on the WR.

On throws out of bounds, it honestly depends.  Andy has had issues throughout his career keeping deep sideline throws in bounds, so a lot of those I would believe are on him.  A lot of the throws out of bounds on short-intermediate stuff are because the receiver is covered.  You can argue that you would like to see the QB try to stick them in there more, which means better production for your receivers.  It also leads to more turnovers, which leads us to an aside...

Just because your WR's are producing stats doesn't mean the QB is playing good football.  Tampa Bay last year is exhibit A.  Their WR's lit it up in fantasy leagues, but they lost a lot of games because their QB took too many risks with the football.  They're called 50-50 balls for a reason.

Hitting guys in stride has never been one of Andy's strengths.  Personally, as great as he is presnap, he is not good processing things real time.  This leads to throws behind his receivers on his 2nd and 3rd reads.  It also leads to him chucking it out of bounds if the guy he's decided to go to presnap can't win as expected.  

However, the other part of that is that it's easier to hit guys in stride and not chuck it out of bounds when your WR's separate and you're not sweating the defender taking it back to the house.  It's the job of the WR to create easier throws for the QB.

The composition of the WR corps also hurt.  AJ Green is a do everything WR.  He can challenge the defense vertically, run precise routes, and win 50-50 balls.  The Bengals didn't have anyone else with his skill set.  You simply aren't going to win having guys like Ross trying to win jump balls or Tate stretch the defense on a deep fly.  We couldn't really use the full playbook because we had to mix and match to fill in for AJ.  Having Higgins as another swiss army knife type will help, but you need versatile guys that can step in and be able to run your offense with.  We had guys that are basically specialists on the bench last year.  They couldn't fill in for AJ when he went down, and there wasn't anyone to fill in for them when they went down.

[phil413]

There's just so many questions and ammo in the OP, this is going to be a long thread so well played.

I have to agree with Fred that people see what they want to see. It's possible that Burrow is able to process the field so well pre and post snap that he avoids missed blocks that won't happen and throws WR's open. We have to look at the offense as a whole though because I'm guilty as anyone in seeing what I want to see. It seems like even in AJ's prime there were times when Andy would lock in, force or be the first check when things fell apart. How much of that was Andy vs what the defense allowed is hard to quantify.

What we don't want to do is be unrealistic with expectations. Take Boyd for example. It's possible by being a possession WR that was healthy all year on a bad team allowed "empty stats/catches". That's not a knock on him, nor should we expect that having a QB with a higher ceiling should put Boyd in the Pro Bowl. it's actually very possible that Boyd's play improves, Burrow is able to survey the field and hits guys like Higgins/Ross/Tate that will draw the lesser DB's and the offense overall is much better and Boyd's targets and catches both go down this year.

Andy is the old QB, Burrow has elite potential. We saw with Brady and Manning that you can change the OL and targets and they still make the HOF. What we don't want to do is bash Andy if AJ misses the HOF. If Burrow is the guy that he's supposed to be, he will put guys in better position to make plays vs what Andy was the last few years. That's not a knock on Andy, I'd still look at Boomer as a great Bengal QB if Klingler would have put up projected Burrow numbers.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-21-2020, 04:47 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: OPs question was

“just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players?”

Very general question that I addressed with no direct relation to Dalton. I know you think everyone is out to bash Dalton in every post, but it just isn’t that way. You’re a little paranoid.

You get it   

I've been a big Dalton supporter, for years. I was hoping we could focus on QB's in general and how their play effects the production of the skill positions. But we can't because.......

I can't point out how the not very good stats of Baker Mayfield has effected the stats of our receivers huh ?

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 07:30 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: You get it   

I've been a big Dalton supporter, for years. I was hoping we could focus on QB's in general and how their play effects the production of the skill positions. But we can't because.......

........Because 90% of the OP was specific questions about specific Bengal players?  Funny how some people assume when you ask questions about Bengal players you want answers about Bengal players.


.........Because this is the "Bengal forum" and not the "Around the NFL forum"?


You guys don't really want to have discussions.  All you want to do is try and pick fights.  Just look at what happened in this thread.  Everyone else is talking about Dalton, but I am the only one who gets insulted for thinking we are discussing Dalton.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-22-2020, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: ........Because 90% of the OP was specific questions about specific Bengal players?  Funny how some people assume when you ask questions about Bengal players you want answers about Bengal players.


.........Because this is the "Bengal forum" and not the "Around the NFL forum"?


You guys don't really want to have discussions.  All you want to do is try and pick fights.  Just look at what happened in this thread.  Everyone else is talking about Dalton, but I am the only one who gets insulted for thinking we are discussing Dalton.

This is rich coming from you.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-21-2020, 01:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I've seen AJ Green and Auden Tate make some catches that
Defy logic.
We don't know if it was the design of the route etc that would
Make Green and Tate have to contort their body
I think every WR has had to make a catch that he had to extend
His body twist it etc
But some guys like Carson Palmer were good at throwing
Passes where Henry Housh Walter Washington
Where they didn't have to turn into Lynn Swann.
Andy's issue was when the play broke down
Then he broke down. He could not improvise

Go back and look at highlights of Chad catching bad passes from Palmer.. hell Palmer could not improvise well

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-22-2020, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: ........Because 90% of the OP was specific questions about specific Bengal players?  Funny how some people assume when you ask questions about Bengal players you want answers about Bengal players.


.........Because this is the "Bengal forum" and not the "Around the NFL forum"?


You guys don't really want to have discussions.  All you want to do is try and pick fights.  Just look at what happened in this thread.  Everyone else is talking about Dalton, but I am the only one who gets insulted for thinking we are discussing Dalton.

It’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.

If we bring up Dalton in any negative capacity, you attack us for bashing him. If we don’t bring him up, you attack us for not mentioning him. There is no way to avoid your rage unfortunately, and it’s getting old.

Why did you bring up Patrick Mahommes? This isn’t the “Around the NFL forum” Fred. Dalton is a backup QB for the Cowboys, maybe if we talk about him it should be in “Around the NFL” since he isn’t a Bengals player. I don’t personally believe that, just think if you’re going to make claims like that, then we shouldn’t discuss Dalton so often.

Back to the original point, QBs that are able to make off schedule plays will help the stats of his skill players. Why? Because they are able to extend plays, find guys on scramble drills and give every skill position guy more opportunities.

Since this is the Bengals forum, let me make this Bengal related for you. ANDY DALTON was a good QB here, but doesn’t extend plays as well as many other QBs in the league. Marvin Lewis even stated one time that Andy and the offense needed to work on off-schedule plays (I believe this was the year Andy made that off-schedule baby hawk throw — see not saying he never does it). The league is changing and starting QBs need to be able to make more and more ‘backyard football’ type of plays. Dalton is lacking in that area, hence why he is now a backup QB.

Since we are replacing a backup QB with a guy whose POTENTIAL (want to make that clear, he could be a bust) lies in extending plays and making off-schedule throws, we should see an uptick for the WRs, HBs and TEs this year.

[*bfine32*]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/veteran-quarterback-andy-dalton-signs-1-year-deal-with-dallas-cowboys/ar-BB13x8gQ

Quote:Veteran quarterback Andy Dalton signs 1-year deal with Dallas Cowboys

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All the WR threads and threads about player stats or production over the past several days have got me thinking  

And we've been through this topic numerous times over the years. But just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players ?

I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?

Having an accurate QB can change tons of things no question about it. Probably more so than anything, if a QB can hit a WR in
stride it can go from a 5 yard completion to a 45 yard TD. Let alone being accurate on the sideline throws which Burrow is down
right great at. Pocket awareness is also huge which Burrow has in spades and something we have not had around here. I know 
you have to have a decent pocket but just watching LSU film from last year there are tons of plays to choose from where the 
pocket broke down and Burrow still made the play. For us? Not so much.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-21-2020, 06:14 PM)Tony Wrote: He didn't at it was very obvious. I do however remember alot of back breaking turnovers in big games by him. The fumble in the charger playoff game. Dalton was basically Chad Pennongton average as hell to very bad. Never great...

I needed a good laugh today. thanks for this post   :andy:

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

I read in an article that Dalton was worst in the league in terms of throwing uncatchable balls with a clean pocket (or he was 30th or 31st).

Cannot find the artcle to link.

If true, that means he is terrible with time IN ADDITION to being terrible under pressure. Not a good combination.

Dalton had some good years behind a great line with aa great WR. Even then he was crap vs the blitz, under pressure, or in big games. He was mostly poor after 2015 (Whit leaves, thumb injury).

Respect the hell out of the man. Great guy. GREAT guy. No joke.

But not close to a great QB.

[Essex Johnson]

I agree was a good not great QB but great QBs are and should be rare. Last great QB we had was Kenny Anderson

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-26-2020, 10:57 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I agree was a good not great QB but great QBs are and should be rare. Last great QB we had was Kenny Anderson

How can you say a QB that won an MVP and took us to a SB wasn’t great?

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All the WR threads and threads about player stats or production over the past several days have got me thinking  

And we've been through this topic numerous times over the years. But just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players ?

I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?

I think one of Dalton's biggest weaknesses (mobility and downfield vision while manipulating the pocket) is one of Burrow's biggest strengths.  Now, will Joe be able to feel as confident behind this offensive line?  I actually believe he will.  He made the LSU line look a lot better than it was, and I think the way he maneuvers around in the pocket will have a big effect on the receiving stats of the WRs, TEs, and RBs. 

Defenders hate to have to cover for any extended period of time, and that ability to buy a little extra time was something we rarely saw from Dalton.  Although, to be fair, in 2018 I thought Van Pelt had a huge impact on Dalton's abilities in relation to pocket awareness, but it didn't seem to last. 

I made the much-maligned "Tyler Boyd- Record Chaser?" thread to try and convey how the 6'1", 202 lb Justin Jefferson had a ridiculous 111 receptions and 18 TDs out of the slot at LSU last season and how the 6'2", 202 lb, Tyler Boyd could have that kind of season with Burrow largely because of how Burrow attacks the middle of the field.  

Burrow will take this offense to new heights.  I can't wait to see it.