Let's not sleep on Auden Tate in the WR mix

[impactplaya]

It was.rare to see Tate actually catch a ball without
Breaking stride. He's got the size and strength to actually
Catch , tuck the ball and turn into a RB.
but you never seen it last season.
Funny thing the guys throwing him balls last year
Won't start unless there is a injury
People gripe about Ross dropping passes, and still moan
And groan when a guy like Auden Tate catches throws.
Tate even said this year he has work to do
Nobody is saying he's a complete finished product
But you can't deny his improvement

[Au165]

(06-08-2020, 02:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: His lack of separation and subsequent lack of YAC will always limit him.

Of his 575 yards (73rd) last year, only 120 came after the catch (174th) and he only averaged 3.0 yards after the catch (141st out of 155 qualified).

Hype aside, I am not sure I see how he can be better than a #4 on a fully healthy and/or good team. I am on board with other posters in this thread that his good hands and large body would be best suited to putting on 20 pounds and playing TE. Getting that LB/S matchup might help him a lot.

Separation is the most overrated argument people use, he gets more than Mike Williams. He essentially gets the same amount of separation as Dez Bryant used to, and I'd use him the same way (slant, slug-go, fade). Better thrown balls create YAC. As I said, I think with good QB play he can be Mike Williams which is a high end 2 in this league.

As to the TE argument, simply calling someone a TE doesn't change who he is or how defenses will play him. He isn't going to quickly become a competent blocking TE, so you aren't going to attach him inline. This means you are essentially playing him as an H-Back which is just a fancy way of saying bigger WR. When people fall in love with H-Backs it's because they can split wide and create matchup issues, one of those being too big for CB's (he is already that), and too fast for LB's (adding weight doesn't help that), so he is already that match up. 

[*Synric*]

(06-08-2020, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Separation is the most overrated argument people use, he gets more than Mike Williams. He essentially gets the same amount of separation as Dez Bryant used to, and I'd use him the same way (slant, slug-go, fade). Better thrown balls create YAC. As I said, I think with good QB play he can be Mike Williams which is a high end 2 in this league.

As to the TE argument, simply calling someone a TE doesn't change who he is or how defenses will play him. He isn't going to quickly become a competent blocking TE, so you aren't going to attach him inline. This means you are essentially playing him as an H-Back which is just a fancy way of saying bigger WR. When people fall in love with H-Backs it's because they can split wide and create matchup issues, one of those being too big for CB's (he is already that), and too fast for LB's (adding weight doesn't help that), so he is already that match up. 

Learning to chip can help him in that role but yea essentially he would be a big slot receiver. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-08-2020, 05:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Separation is the most overrated argument people use, he gets more than Mike Williams. He essentially gets the same amount of separation as Dez Bryant used to, and I'd use him the same way (slant, slug-go, fade). Better thrown balls create YAC. As I said, I think with good QB play he can be Mike Williams which is a high end 2 in this league.

As to the TE argument, simply calling someone a TE doesn't change who he is or how defenses will play him. He isn't going to quickly become a competent blocking TE, so you aren't going to attach him inline. This means you are essentially playing him as an H-Back which is just a fancy way of saying bigger WR. When people fall in love with H-Backs it's because they can split wide and create matchup issues, one of those being too big for CB's (he is already that), and too fast for LB's (adding weight doesn't help that), so he is already that match up. 

And on Mike Williams' year he has the most receiving yards in his career? Philip Rivers threw 20 INT, 1 shy of his career high and nearly DOUBLE the amount he had thrown each of the previous two years.

And on Dez Bryant's year he had the most receiving yards in his career? Tony Romo led the league in INTs.


- - - - -
Separation is really not overrated because CBs generally can't intercept passes they're not near. They also can't immediately tackle a WR if they need to first catch up to them.

Imagine truly believing that the ability to beat your opponent is overrated in a sport. Lol

[Au165]

(06-08-2020, 05:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And on Mike Williams' year he has the most receiving yards in his career? Philip Rivers threw 20 INT, 1 shy of his career high and nearly DOUBLE the amount he had thrown each of the previous two years.

And on Dez Bryant's year he had the most receiving yards in his career? Tony Romo led the league in INTs.


- - - - -
Separation is really not overrated because CBs generally can't intercept passes they're not near. They also can't immediately tackle a WR if they need to first catch up to them.

Imagine truly believing that the ability to beat your opponent is overrated in a sport. Lol

You got stats on how many were thrown when targeting these guys? I found Rivers only threw 1 INT to 10 TDs in 2018 with Williams getting similar separation. Dez Bryant always got the same separation,
, it was never his game, so you can throw out Romos worst season as an example and I can counter with Romos best season. You can beat your opponent with position, you don’t need separation when your a contested ball catcher. Kenny Golladay get 7 more inches of separation than Tate, that is less than a normal WR hand size. Hell AJ got 3 inches more of separation then Tate in 2018. When your talking that little difference it ALL comes down to good ball placement.

I got bad news for you if your caught on this idea you need big separation, he doesn’t. He’s similar to AJ and Tate, they are contested ball catchers who use position, leverage, and timing to win at the catch point.

As for your snarky attitude, that’s not needed but it’s why I come around here less. I will talk actual football with people all day but when you want to act like that then it’s not worth my time.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-08-2020, 05:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: You got stats on how many were thrown when targeting these guys? I found Rivers only threw 1 INT to 10 TDs in 2018 with Williams getting similar separation. Dez Bryant always got the same separation,
, it was never his game, so you can throw out Romos worst season as an example and I can counter with Romos best season. You can beat your opponent with position, you don’t need separation when your a contested ball catcher. Kenny Golladay get 7 more inches of separation than Tate, that is less than a normal WR hand size. Hell AJ got 3 inches more of separation then Tate in 2018. When your talking that little difference it ALL comes down to good ball placement.

I got bad news for you if your caught on this idea you need big separation, he doesn’t. He’s similar to AJ and Tate, they are contested ball catchers who use position, leverage, and timing to win at the catch point.

As for your snarky attitude, that’s not needed but it’s why I come around here less. I will talk actual football with people all day but when you want to act like that then it’s not worth my time.

People misunderstand what separation is at the NFL level. So yes it's overrated.

[Joelist]

Tate will be competing with Ross to be the #4 WR. AJ, Boyd and Higgins will be WRs 1-3.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-08-2020, 05:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: You got stats on how many were thrown when targeting these guys? I found Rivers only threw 1 INT to 10 TDs in 2018 with Williams getting similar separation. Dez Bryant always got the same separation,
, it was never his game, so you can throw out Romos worst season as an example and I can counter with Romos best season. You can beat your opponent with position, you don’t need separation when your a contested ball catcher. Kenny Golladay get 7 more inches of separation than Tate, that is less than a normal WR hand size. Hell AJ got 3 inches more of separation then Tate in 2018. When your talking that little difference it ALL comes down to good ball placement.

I got bad news for you if your caught on this idea you need big separation, he doesn’t. He’s similar to AJ and Tate, they are contested ball catchers who use position, leverage, and timing to win at the catch point.

As for your snarky attitude, that’s not needed but it’s why I come around here less. I will talk actual football with people all day but when you want to act like that then it’s not worth my time.

Don't let TLL's snarkiness get to you AU165. You are one of the best posters on here and I love hearing you talk football.

You know your stuff man.

[Au165]

(06-08-2020, 07:34 PM)Joelist Wrote: Tate will be competing with Ross to be the #4 WR. AJ, Boyd and Higgins will be WRs 1-3.

More bad news, rookie WR’s historically take a year or two to produce at a high level. For every Terry McLaurin or DK Metcalf there are far more Chris Godwins or DeVante Parker’s who take 3 years to produce at a decent level. WR is one of those positions where a couple years is standard for most guys who aren’t Blue Chippers, which I wouldn’t necessarily consider Higgins.

I’d expect Tate is the 3rd best WR on this team this year barring injuries.

[schroomytunes]

The way I see out WR depth chart is as follows:

1) AJ Green
2) Boyd
3) Ross
4) Tate
5) Higgins
6) Erickson
7) Morgan/Thomas/Willis etc

-I think there will be specific packages designed for 4-6, but if healthy 1-3 are almost every down.

[Whatever]

(06-08-2020, 05:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: You got stats on how many were thrown when targeting these guys? I found Rivers only threw 1 INT to 10 TDs in 2018 with Williams getting similar separation. Dez Bryant always got the same separation,
, it was never his game, so you can throw out Romos worst season as an example and I can counter with Romos best season. You can beat your opponent with position, you don’t need separation when your a contested ball catcher. Kenny Golladay get 7 more inches of separation than Tate, that is less than a normal WR hand size. Hell AJ got 3 inches more of separation then Tate in 2018. When your talking that little difference it ALL comes down to good ball placement.

I got bad news for you if your caught on this idea you need big separation, he doesn’t. He’s similar to AJ and Tate, they are contested ball catchers who use position, leverage, and timing to win at the catch point.

As for your snarky attitude, that’s not needed but it’s why I come around here less. I will talk actual football with people all day but when you want to act like that then it’s not worth my time.

Tate caught 50% of his targets last year.  Mike Williams caught 54%.  Golladay caught 56%.

Williams had 17 20+ yard catches and 8 40+ yard catches.  Golladay had 22 20+ yard catches and 6 40+ yard catches.  Tate had 8 20+ yard catches and 0 40+ yard catches.  

If you can't get separation, you are not going to catch a high % of your targets in the NFL.  You can still be effective and productive if you can pressure the defense deep and make big chunk plays downfield.  Problem is, Tate simply doesn't possess the physical talent necessary to do that.  

There's a reason why Tate runs a limited route tree.  He's slow getting into his routes and slow out of his breaks.  In other words ,he's not a good route runner.  When you aren't a good route runner, the QB is going to look inaccurate throwing to you, because you aren't where you're supposed to be.  You referenced inaccurate throws on out routes earlier.  That's a timing throw.  That ball is supposed to be out before the receiver makes his break.  If he's slow getting out of his break, the pass will appear too far out in front and inaccurate.  The QB can't leave it inside because it's a pick 6 if the CB jumps it.  

I don't get why we keep excuse making for a guy who has well documented physical limitations and using a bunch of comparisons to guys who are far superior athletes as an example of what he could be.  Auden Tate isn't Mike Williams, Kenny Golladay, or AJ Green.  He just doesn't have their God given ability.  Why limit your offense by shoehorning a possession WR who can't run a full route tree into the lineup?

[BengalsBong]

Auden in my eyes is a solid 4th WR at this point in his career. If AJ and Ross do not make it back next year. Then a high draft pick 1st most likely depending on how good Tee is this year with Tyler Boyd, Tee Higgins and Auden Tate is still a pretty strong WR group. Auden made strides this year so did a lot of guys at WR but Boyd and Auden was our top guys we need better talent on the field with them. You can not fault Auden and Boyd for staying healthy they did what they could against defenses that could key in on them and game plan for just them for most of the year. For the Erickson fans I did not bring him up because I see him as a back up for Boyd in the slot he is not a number one or two outside WR and if I had to pick between Erickson and Auden as a 4th WR it would be Auden. Erickson has his place on this team as a 5th or 6th WR unless some new guy outplays him.

Will Auden improve on his stats from last year I hope not since that would most likely mean we had a few WR injuries for a large part of the season. I want Joe Burrow to have all of his WR weapons on the field this year. If this happens I think the questions about our head coach calling offensive plays will be answered.

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 12:25 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tate caught 50% of his targets last year.  Mike Williams caught 54%.  Golladay caught 56%.

Williams had 17 20+ yard catches and 8 40+ yard catches.  Golladay had 22 20+ yard catches and 6 40+ yard catches.  Tate had 8 20+ yard catches and 0 40+ yard catches.  

If you can't get separation, you are not going to catch a high % of your targets in the NFL.  You can still be effective and productive if you can pressure the defense deep and make big chunk plays downfield.  Problem is, Tate simply doesn't possess the physical talent necessary to do that.  

There's a reason why Tate runs a limited route tree.  He's slow getting into his routes and slow out of his breaks.  In other words ,he's not a good route runner.  When you aren't a good route runner, the QB is going to look inaccurate throwing to you, because you aren't where you're supposed to be.  You referenced inaccurate throws on out routes earlier.  That's a timing throw.  That ball is supposed to be out before the receiver makes his break.  If he's slow getting out of his break, the pass will appear too far out in front and inaccurate.  The QB can't leave it inside because it's a pick 6 if the CB jumps it.  

I don't get why we keep excuse making for a guy who has well documented physical limitations and using a bunch of comparisons to guys who are far superior athletes as an example of what he could be.  Auden Tate isn't Mike Williams, Kenny Golladay, or AJ Green.  He just doesn't have their God given ability.  Why limit your offense by shoehorning a possession WR who can't run a full route tree into the lineup?

Let's start off that catch percentage is a horrible stat to use. If the ball is reasonably catchable or not, it doesn't matter, you get credited with a target. Let's look at "true catch rate" where only catchable balls are taken into account. Auden Tate had a 75.5% true catch rate while Mike Williams was 74.2% and Kenny Golladay 75.6%. So they all catch about the same amount on catchable balls, and they all have about the same amount of separation. I will say Golladay is an elite contested ball catcher (7th in NFL) whereas (Williams 24th) and Tate (20th) are just really good. Tate's target quality score was 97th in the NFL, whereas Williams was 20th and Golladay was 23rd meaning they simply had better situations, which is my whole point.

When you start throwing out cliches about “slow to get into the route and out of breaks” and then talking about timing throws and how they “can’t throw inside or it’s a pick 6” without even talking about the specific nuances of a particular route, or coverage, I can’t actually take you seriously. Go find a mash-up of him consistently “getting into his route and out of his breaks too slow”. Go watch back the Buffalo tape against a really good Tre'Davious White and show me where this is occuring. These over-generalizations don't actually mean anything, especially if you can't put tape to it. This is stuff you see on scouting reports as generalizations but it

On the tape my biggest issue with him was that he can sometimes round out his out route, but that is relatively common. Rounding off an out can change ball placement but it should usually be high and behind there not wide, he saw a lot of really wide balls. My biggest issue with his QB play was simply throwing the ball outside the field of play. Often times he would do a good job on a 9 ball getting up the field and hold the leverage to prevent getting squeeze to the sideline. He gives his QB's the proper spacing on the sideline to work with but they (usually Dalton) still wanted to put the ball too far outside. His best route is his slant. The thing he does well is his use of suddenness at the top of his steam to get inside positioning on corners. The key with the slant is attacking the ball when it's thrown rather than letting it get to your chest. He goes and snatches the ball out of the air with his hands, which helps beat tighter man coverage, especially on properly placed balls. When balls are thrown on a WR's numbers on these routes or on the back hip, that is where people tend to cry about "lack of separation" but that's not where that ball is supposed to be in most situations unless you are throwing into an oncoming zone defender.

I defend him because I’ve watched all 80 targets of his last season. Was he amazing? No. Was he better than people here think? 100%. There is a difference between getting a ball to a guy and getting him the ball where it’s supposed to be. There are different ball placements used for protecting receivers from defenders, and throwing them open, but more often then not Tate found himself simply with bad balls. He can be a high-end #2 WR in this league.

[impactplaya]

(06-09-2020, 01:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: Let's start off that catch percentage is a horrible stat to use. If the ball is reasonably catchable or not, it doesn't matter, you get credited with a target. Let's look at "true catch rate" where only catchable balls are taken into account. Auden Tate had a 75.5% true catch rate while Mike Williams was 74.2% and Kenny Golladay 75.6%. So they all catch about the same amount on catchable balls, and they all have about the same amount of separation. I will say Golladay is an elite contested ball catcher (7th in NFL) whereas (Williams 24th) and Tate (20th) are just really good. Tate's target quality score was 97th in the NFL, whereas Williams was 20th and Golladay was 23rd meaning they simply had better situations, which is my whole point.

When you start throwing out cliches about “slow to get into the route and out of breaks” and then talking about timing throws and how they “can’t throw inside or it’s a pick 6” without even talking about the specific nuances of a particular route, or coverage, I can’t actually take you seriously. Go find a mash-up of him consistently “getting into his route and out of his breaks too slow”. Go watch back the Buffalo tape against a really good Tre'Davious White and show me where this is occuring. These over-generalizations don't actually mean anything, especially if you can't put tape to it. This is stuff you see on scouting reports as generalizations but it

On the tape my biggest issue with him was that he can sometimes round out his out route, but that is relatively common. Rounding off an out can change ball placement but it should usually be high and behind there not wide, he saw a lot of really wide balls. My biggest issue with his QB play was simply throwing the ball outside the field of play. Often times he would do a good job on a 9 ball getting up the field and hold the leverage to prevent getting squeeze to the sideline. He gives his QB's the proper spacing on the sideline to work with but they (usually Dalton) still wanted to put the ball too far outside. His best route is his slant. The thing he does well is his use of suddenness at the top of his steam to get inside positioning on corners. The key with the slant is attacking the ball when it's thrown rather than letting it get to your chest. He goes and snatches the ball out of the air with his hands, which helps beat tighter man coverage, especially on properly placed balls. When balls are thrown on a WR's numbers on these routes or on the back hip, that is where people tend to cry about "lack of separation" but that's not where that ball is supposed to be in most situations unless you are throwing into an oncoming zone defender.

I defend him because I’ve watched all 80 targets of his last season. Was he amazing? No. Was he better than people here think? 100%. There is a difference between getting a ball to a guy and getting him the ball where it’s supposed to be. There are different ball placements used for protecting receivers from defenders, and throwing them open, but more often then not Tate found himself simply with bad balls. He can be a high-end #2 WR in this league.

Of all his targets how many different routes did he run 
Out of the route tree.my memory says he ran 5 
Let's not forget he came from a school that hasn't 
Exactly produced elite WRS as of late.
Its not like Auden got the best coaching at FSU either 
His QBS were garbage there 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-08-2020, 06:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: People misunderstand what separation is at the NFL level. So yes it's overrated.

I don't know.  I think it is overrated when evaluating a WR.  I mean, look at Michael Thomas.  People know that slant is coming and they still can't stop it.  The guy has hands of glue and Brees is one of the most accurate QBs of all time.  (cue Burrow references).  

I don't believe it is overrated when it comes to building a team.  If you have a bunch of WRs that don't generate quick separation and you have a poor offensive line, then you have a recipe for disaster.  You need a guy (or two) that can get open quick on teams like that.  I think of how much Welker and Edelman helped New England's offense with quick separation and nickel-and-diming teams until they got sloppy and Brady could beat them deep.  

One of my concerns with the Bengals is they only have Ross that really fits that mold, and a bunch of larger possession-type WRs.  I'm sure Burrow's accuracy and confidence (like the quote about when he sees a DBs back, he is going to let it fly) will help matters, as will his outstanding vision, but I really hope the line can hold up long enough for his guys to finish their routes.  I have faith that going empty will actually help spread teams out and attack them on multiple levels.  

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 11:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't know.  I think it is overrated when evaluating a WR.  I mean, look at Michael Thomas.  People know that slant is coming and they still can't stop it.  The guy has hands of glue and Brees is one of the most accurate QBs of all time.  (cue Burrow references).   I don't believe it is overrated when it comes to building a team.  If you have a bunch of WRs that don't generate quick separation and you have a poor offensive line, then you have a recipe for disaster.  You need a guy (or two) that can get open quick on teams like that.  I think of how much Welker and Edelman helped New England's offense with quick separation and nickel-and-diming teams until they got sloppy and Brady could beat them deep.   One of my concerns with the Bengals is they only have Ross that really fits that mold, and a bunch of larger possession-type WRs.  I'm sure Burrow's accuracy and confidence (like the quote about when he sees a DBs back, he is going to let it fly) will help matters, as will his outstanding vision, but I really hope the line can hold up long enough for his guys to finish their routes.  I have faith that going empty will actually help spread teams out and attack them on multiple levels.  

The interesting thing is Tate was 32nd in the league on cushion given. Guys aren't pressing him because of his size which allows him to get a free releases more often than not. People kind of misunderstand that you need to be fast/quick or you need to be big, you don't need to be both to accomplish the same threat. If you are fast people give a cushion because you can get by them, if you are big you give a cushion because if they get their release they will get the position and proper positioning with a size advantage is almost impossible to stop (hence why I keep harping on properly). In terms of Tate's route tree, he runs a lot of these slants because of the cushion he is getting and with that he gets good inside leverage that gives him a great shot at the ball with his size and ability to attack the ball.

[Whatever]

(06-09-2020, 01:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: Let's start off that catch percentage is a horrible stat to use. If the ball is reasonably catchable or not, it doesn't matter, you get credited with a target. Let's look at "true catch rate" where only catchable balls are taken into account. Auden Tate had a 75.5% true catch rate while Mike Williams was 74.2% and Kenny Golladay 75.6%. So they all catch about the same amount on catchable balls, and they all have about the same amount of separation. I will say Golladay is an elite contested ball catcher (7th in NFL) whereas (Williams 24th) and Tate (20th) are just really good. Tate's target quality score was 97th in the NFL, whereas Williams was 20th and Golladay was 23rd meaning they simply had better situations, which is my whole point.

When you start throwing out cliches about “slow to get into the route and out of breaks” and then talking about timing throws and how they “can’t throw inside or it’s a pick 6” without even talking about the specific nuances of a particular route, or coverage, I can’t actually take you seriously. Go find a mash-up of him consistently “getting into his route and out of his breaks too slow”. Go watch back the Buffalo tape against a really good Tre'Davious White and show me where this is occuring. These over-generalizations don't actually mean anything, especially if you can't put tape to it. This is stuff you see on scouting reports as generalizations but it

On the tape my biggest issue with him was that he can sometimes round out his out route, but that is relatively common. Rounding off an out can change ball placement but it should usually be high and behind there not wide, he saw a lot of really wide balls. My biggest issue with his QB play was simply throwing the ball outside the field of play. Often times he would do a good job on a 9 ball getting up the field and hold the leverage to prevent getting squeeze to the sideline. He gives his QB's the proper spacing on the sideline to work with but they (usually Dalton) still wanted to put the ball too far outside. His best route is his slant. The thing he does well is his use of suddenness at the top of his steam to get inside positioning on corners. The key with the slant is attacking the ball when it's thrown rather than letting it get to your chest. He goes and snatches the ball out of the air with his hands, which helps beat tighter man coverage, especially on properly placed balls. When balls are thrown on a WR's numbers on these routes or on the back hip, that is where people tend to cry about "lack of separation" but that's not where that ball is supposed to be in most situations unless you are throwing into an oncoming zone defender.

I defend him because I’ve watched all 80 targets of his last season. Was he amazing? No. Was he better than people here think? 100%. There is a difference between getting a ball to a guy and getting him the ball where it’s supposed to be. There are different ball placements used for protecting receivers from defenders, and throwing them open, but more often then not Tate found himself simply with bad balls. He can be a high-end #2 WR in this league.

So, you keep harping on target quality, but a 70 some slot difference in target quality equated to a 4-6% difference on catch % using your sample players.  That would've equated to 4 more catches and 50-some yards over the course of last year.  He would not have had this massive jump in production with similar target quality. We're talking one more catch every 3 games.  

His inability to get out of his breaks is obvious on his tape.  Watch all the times he struggles to get to the boundary on his out routes and tell me he gets out of his breaks well.

Rounding off an out on the boundary is not going to cause a high and behind throw.  The QB is throwing to a spot on the sideline.  The receiver is supposed to break after a set number of steps and his route is supposed to intersect the ball's trajectory just before the chalk.  Most commonly, WR's that round off their out carry the route too far upfield.  That results in throws that seem wide because the ball went oob a yard or two in front of him.

Draw an X and Y axis.  Pick a point on X and and a point on Y and draw a line between them, continuing the line past the Y axis.  Now pick a point slightly further up the Y axis and look where your line is relative to the new point.  The "ball" is "out of bounds", right?  You're blaming the QB for Tate's poor route running.

[Daddy-O]

(06-04-2020, 04:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: I hear he ranks 1st in off-season hype threads among WR's that have caught less than half of their career targets, though.

Late to the game here and really don't have a dog in the fight, but why is there  even an argument about the potential of a 4th or 5th WR?

I've seen comparisons of numbers against others throughout this thread, but no comparisons against other teams 4th or 5th receivers (guys with names nobody would know).  For that reason alone I would tend to agree with the pro Tate group.  It's not like we're talking about AJ Green or Tyler Boyd's potential here!

[impactplaya]

There's a handful of teams Auden Tate could be a solid
#2 or #3 for. Jets , Giants, Packers, Redskins

[Au165]

(06-09-2020, 12:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: So, you keep harping on target quality, but a 70 some slot difference in target quality equated to a 4-6% difference on catch % using your sample players.  That would've equated to 4 more catches and 50-some yards over the course of last year.  He would not have had this massive jump in production with similar target quality. We're talking one more catch every 3 games.  

His inability to get out of his breaks is obvious on his tape.  Watch all the times he struggles to get to the boundary on his out routes and tell me he gets out of his breaks well.

Rounding off an out on the boundary is not going to cause a high and behind throw.  The QB is throwing to a spot on the sideline.  The receiver is supposed to break after a set number of steps and his route is supposed to intersect the ball's trajectory just before the chalk.  Most commonly, WR's that round off their out carry the route too far upfield.  That results in throws that seem wide because the ball went oob a yard or two in front of him.

Draw an X and Y axis.  Pick a point on X and and a point on Y and draw a line between them, continuing the line past the Y axis.  Now pick a point slightly further up the Y axis and look where your line is relative to the new point.  The "ball" is "out of bounds", right?  You're blaming the QB for Tate's poor route running.

Target quality is not catchable balls. Target quality is properly placed balls not just catchable. The point being they all caught similar amounts of catchable balls but in terms of production Tate's lacked because of the quality of the ball placement to him. Target quality is absolutley tied to the ability to add RAC.

As to your "Football" analysis, none of it is actually true. What about it is "obvious on tape"? The ball on an out route shouldn't be thrown at the sideline it should be placed 1-2 outside of the stem on the outside shoulder. He shouldn't be "getting to the boundary" to make the catch at all. Now if you are talking a comeback like what AJ often ran with Dalton you'd be a little more accurate in where that ball should be placed in relation to the boundary.

This 100% causes routes to be behind and high. The reason is when you round a route off you are usually a yard or two shallow of the expected stem. The QB will start his delivery at the expected top of your stem and work laterally off that stem for the targeted location. When the targeted location is behind your path the receiver tends to find themselves further along their path because they starter working laterally at or before the start of the QB delivery. This same thing happens on slants for WR's as well, but he doesn't have the issue with slants. Bottom line, balls are wide because they are late or simply inaccurate, not because he is "slow out of his break".